Kirtan

[chatanga]

Guru Ji sipahi, forgive me, i did ask for views towards jathas, not any particular jatha but using namdharis as an example only seems to have pushed this thread in the direction of namdharis only and howthey view sikhi.

However i made this point recently on another thread that altho people have a go at namdharis for not beleiving Granth is Guru, some peope or jathas/organisations dont beleive in Guru Granth Sahib in its entirety. Would knowing that make you feel like not attending a kirtan event by that particular group ?

Now i dont wanna turn this into jatha bashing. So please dont. And ease up on the namdharis. thank you please.

muslims killed us, hindus killed us, but they are not as bad as the naamdharis.

that is appaling to say something like that.

[tableji]

Guru Ji sipahi, forgive me, i did ask for views towards jathas, not any particular jatha but using namdharis as an example only seems to have pushed this thread in the direction of namdharis only and howthey view sikhi.

However i made this point recently on another thread that altho people have a go at namdharis for not beleiving Granth is Guru, some peope or jathas/organisations dont beleive in Guru Granth Sahib in its entirety. Would knowing that make you feel like not attending a kirtan event by that particular group ?

Now i dont wanna turn this into jatha bashing. So please dont. And ease up on the namdharis. thank you please.

muslims killed us, hindus killed us, but they are not as bad as the naamdharis.

that is appaling to say something like that.

why is it appauling? they change gurbani - in the presence of guru granth sahib ji? they have a dehdhari guru?

and then we let them into our gurughars just because they have raag vidiya?

doesnt maharaj say,

koee gaavai raagee naadhee baedhee bahu bhaath kar nehee har har bheejai raam raajae ||

Some sing of the Lord, through musical Ragas and the sound current of the Naad, through the Vedas, and in so many ways. But the Lord, Har, Har, is not pleased by these, O Lord King.

ijnw AMqir kptu ivkwru hY iqnw roie ikAw kIjY ]

jinaa a(n)thar kapatt vikaar hai thinaa roe kiaa keejai ||

Those who are filled with fraud and corruption within - what good does it do for them to cry out?

Maharaj is saying that gursikhi jeevan is more important than raag (not saying that raag is not important)

What is different in namdharis and nirankaris? - they both believe in dehdhari, they both have their own rehits, the both bash Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The only thing difference is, namdharis dont publically or voilently protest, they do it quietly and inflitrate the sangat.

[tableji]

lol this thread has turned into an oppurtunity for al those "gurmat-parchar" ppl to bash at some group.. challo anywho..

On the topic of kirtani..

If you don't like what you see, close your eyes :s

how is speaking the truth bashing? gurbani judges in the tukh above not me...can you deny that namdharis distort gurbani??like said above, Ram Rai did EXACTLY the same thing, and Guru Arjan Dev Ji, told him to leave.

So gurbani and gurujis actual actions have both been provided in this discussion. Be my guest if you think you can counter those..

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Great posts tableji

[akjforever]

I think it is scary when people are saying that it is ok to listen to namdharees because they play great Tabla or Vaja. It then seems that those that don't have any problem with the namdharees go for the musical skill of the namdharees. We are treating Kirtan as going to a musical concert not Kirtan. So it doesn't matter how well someone can Sing or play an instrument. If that person doesn't even believe in what he or she is singing, then that person or persons should not be allowed to do Kirtan, or if they are doing it they should be boycotted.

A couple of years ago we had a namdharee tabla player come in to our local Gurdwara to "show off" his skills in Kirtan. And once I found out who he was, I got up and left. I even asked the head of the Gurdwara committee, he was mona, as to why he brought in the namdhree, and he said he didn't have any problem with it because this namdharee tabla player was one of the best in the world and that's what counted.

[OhTwadi]

.

[chatanga]

thats a good point papi, cos most of us will never know the avastha of the kirtanis unless we have interacted with them personally. , and like myself they might look it, but chop heads off goats in private. however the topic seems to hovering on namdharis. lets focus on more traditional groups in sikhi.

we seem to have a broad spectrum of views here, from if he aint got high avastha we dont wanna know, to as long sa the kirtan is main objective thats da main thing.

me thinks both have valid points anyway.

[OhTwadi]

.

[blinded]

for god sakes does it matter who's doing keertan.............the bani is for everybody............i mean the khand keertani jatha proper scream and shout when they do kirtan and certain bani is not pronouced correctly .... vaheguru for example so where's the sathkar there?

[Sarbloh]

for god sakes does it matter who's doing keertan.............the bani is for everybody............i mean the khand keertani jatha proper scream and shout when they do kirtan and certain bani is not pronouced correctly .... vaheguru for example so where's the sathkar there?

Gurbani is sanjha, there is no way anyone can stop anyone from enjoying Gurbani. But a Gurdwara environment needs to be controlled and responsible in representing Sikhi at least as per the agreed consensus of the Akal Takht. The responsibility lies in ensuring that the portrayal and respect to Sikh maryada is done to its utmost best. Now if that means ensuring that Keertani or Jathas needs to be toned down (due to screaming and shouting as your put it) then we have the right and duty to do that.

Guru Granth Khalsa has to understand the right to prohibit someone performing Keertan on Gurdwara stages for whatever reasons. Whether it’s over a dehadhari issue or the general vocal opinion of the individual. There needs to be some control in place otherwise we will constantly confuse the sangat with what is acceptable and what isn’t.

We have difficulties in uniting because of our difference which have become bigger and bigger over the centuries. But our elders (of all Sikh backgrounds from your AKJ to Sant Samaj to Nihang Dals to SGPC) have sat together and attempted to unite us over the last 100 years and have produced a unified maryada under Sri Akal Takht. If we can not even loosely base our Sikhi on that than we have no chance of accepting each others differences. Avoid thinking Akal Takht = Joginder Vedanti = Badal because believe me there are still some mahan Gursikhs exerting pathic pressure within these circles. Times will change, if we are willing to have the patience.