Urgent Advice Needed.

[Temporary]

I must say, I agree with Temporary.

If you're on orthopaedics, any infection to a wound site can be potentially fatal. it's better to take the hit yourself, Waheguru will know that your actions are altruistic. I agree that it's unfair about the wedding rings issue, but that doesn't matter - we must protect our patients first!

But, if you do want help and assistance, you've got it. Just mobilise the troops, so to speak

Wedding rings are not unfair at all, b/c you are supposed to be following BSI standards, thus gloves serving as barier b/w pt and mp...

I just wanted to mention this before you guys go on mobilizing and at the end are told, "duh, shouldn't you be wearing gloves???"

No need to remove the ring, unless ofcourse you got a 'phat' one or don't wear gloves...lol

[s8220]

I must say, I agree with Temporary.

If you're on orthopaedics, any infection to a wound site can be potentially fatal. it's better to take the hit yourself, Waheguru will know that your actions are altruistic. I agree that it's unfair about the wedding rings issue, but that doesn't matter - we must protect our patients first!

But, if you do want help and assistance, you've got it. Just mobilise the troops, so to speak

Wedding rings are not unfair at all, b/c you are supposed to be following BSI standards, thus gloves serving as barier b/w pt and mp...

I just wanted to mention this before you guys go on mobilizing and at the end are told, "duh, shouldn't you be wearing gloves???"

No need to remove the ring, unless ofcourse you got a 'phat' one or don't wear gloves...lol

I have no idea what BMI standards are - we don't use that term in the UK! But if your say palpating an abdomen, performing a peripheral neuro exam or something like that, no one ever wears gloves. Only for invasive procudures or checking wound healing etc would one don gloves. Hence, the blanket ban on kareh but allowing of wedding bands IS unfair. But again, I don't particularly mind it because if it protects patients then it is justified in my opinion

[Jangal Da]

Hi.

I''m in A&E NTGH and have never had a problem in the West Midlands or Northumbria Trusts. Here we have a bare-below-elbows-policy, but under the Trust policies there are exceptions for what they term as 'culturally sensetive.' I am not amrit-cchak, but even so I always wear my kara. When I did theatre work it would always go into my pocket, in my scrubs, under the gown.

I would in the first instance go and speak to the Clinical Director (assuming you are a doctor) and explain what you can forsee, becoming an issue. Also write a letter to Infection Control. Explain that the kara is steel (no need to go into details ie iron, sarabloh etc) and that when you wash hands, you also gel or wash your kara. Explain its religious significance (details not neccessary) and the need for you to wear it. Wedding bands are worn for cultural-superstitious reasons ie some English people think its a curse to remove them and these harbour more bugs than anywhere else because of the engravings and tight fit. The kara is smooth and not snug against the skin ie it does not trap bacteria. They will have to let you wear it. As a last resort get a petition from all the Sikhs working in the Trust from tea ladies to porters to docs and nurses and admin staff.

I never wear gloves all the time between patients as it is impractical, and lacks evidence base as an effective barrier against the bugs that they are tring to be rid off. Further more a human touch is a humane touch and part of the doctor-patient interaction. If a patient is socially clean there is no need for such barrier when doing simple examinations or taking bloods.

All the best and please post the outcome.

[Guroo Guroo Jaap]

Situation:

Pinderfield's General Hospital: Ward Physiotherapy...

Problem: Infection control Warden States "I am not allowed to wear Kara."

Situation: Explained to them I am required to wear it as they allow wedding bands.

Current status: unknown, is there any prescedence organisation who can back my case?

Regards

Veer, I'm in EM and i would suggest, please take off your kara and whenever you are allowed to put it back on do ardas and put it back on. I work in emergency medicine and on my calls, i take off my kara, mundri (lol), simrana. Its for something we call BSI in emergency medicine in US (don;t know about uk), however i keep my kirpan on as its under my clothes. Hope it helps, and its for your and wards safety as there and standards in medicine, and i always tell everyone to follow them. Please do obligue. Thank you.

WJKK, WJKF!!

Sikhi cumz 1st, Mahraj made u a Sikh b4 a big doctor or anythin else. So dont ignore the fact that we must keep on our 5 Kakkar at all times.

[s8220]

Hi.

I''m in A&E NTGH and have never had a problem in the West Midlands or Northumbria Trusts. Here we have a bare-below-elbows-policy, but under the Trust policies there are exceptions for what they term as 'culturally sensetive.' I am not amrit-cchak, but even so I always wear my kara. When I did theatre work it would always go into my pocket, in my scrubs, under the gown.

I would in the first instance go and speak to the Clinical Director (assuming you are a doctor) and explain what you can forsee, becoming an issue. Also write a letter to Infection Control. Explain that the kara is steel (no need to go into details ie iron, sarabloh etc) and that when you wash hands, you also gel or wash your kara. Explain its religious significance (details not neccessary) and the need for you to wear it. Wedding bands are worn for cultural-superstitious reasons ie some English people think its a curse to remove them and these harbour more bugs than anywhere else because of the engravings and tight fit. The kara is smooth and not snug against the skin ie it does not trap bacteria. They will have to let you wear it. As a last resort get a petition from all the Sikhs working in the Trust from tea ladies to porters to docs and nurses and admin staff.

I never wear gloves all the time between patients as it is impractical, and lacks evidence base as an effective barrier against the bugs that they are tring to be rid off. Further more a human touch is a humane touch and part of the doctor-patient interaction. If a patient is socially clean there is no need for such barrier when doing simple examinations or taking bloods.

All the best and please post the outcome.

Veer Ji, that's a great and helpful e-mail! I do the same - in surgery i just pop my kara in my back pocket. it's just really annoying when you forget, and sit down really hard on a hard stool. not a lot of fun :S lol

I think the bare-below elbows policy has some merit but the BMA wrote an article saying it could potentially cost lives, because if doctors can't acurately count the pulse rate or resp rate and we guess, it could potentially impact on patient care. they asked 100 doctors to guess someone's pulse without a watch and only 3% got it right. of course, i think the BMA was just moaning about it because in practise most rooms have a clock and most A&E departments would have a pulse oximiter handy. just thought i'd share this, that's all!

[mskcan]

Thanks for the responses,

Guru has been on my side, and I am allowed to wear it so long as it is kept high up the arm and wrapped, then taped over top. This is an effective solution and I am quite grateful, and glad that I didn't give up on my faith.

If people can wear wedding bands, why not be able to wear Kara which is a part of the Sikh image? I literally feel naked without it.

Thanks everyone, please maintain your Saroop Diligently, do not act in anger, just pray and it will come true because you will believe in the world being changed for you.

In the words of Sikh Coalition:

The Coalition urges the Sikhs to wear their articles of faith, including the kirpan, freely.

Gurfateh

[Temporary]

I must say, I agree with Temporary.

If you're on orthopaedics, any infection to a wound site can be potentially fatal. it's better to take the hit yourself, Waheguru will know that your actions are altruistic. I agree that it's unfair about the wedding rings issue, but that doesn't matter - we must protect our patients first!

But, if you do want help and assistance, you've got it. Just mobilise the troops, so to speak

Wedding rings are not unfair at all, b/c you are supposed to be following BSI standards, thus gloves serving as barier b/w pt and mp...

I just wanted to mention this before you guys go on mobilizing and at the end are told, "duh, shouldn't you be wearing gloves???"

No need to remove the ring, unless ofcourse you got a 'phat' one or don't wear gloves...lol

I have no idea what BMI standards are - we don't use that term in the UK! But if your say palpating an abdomen, performing a peripheral neuro exam or something like that, no one ever wears gloves. Only for invasive procudures or checking wound healing etc would one don gloves. Hence, the blanket ban on kareh but allowing of wedding bands IS unfair. But again, I don't particularly mind it because if it protects patients then it is justified in my opinion

Is that seriously true? LOL, Here is US before you touch a patient you put on gloves, but there are exceptions such taking vitals etc.

Hi.

I''m in A&E NTGH and have never had a problem in the West Midlands or Northumbria Trusts. Here we have a bare-below-elbows-policy, but under the Trust policies there are exceptions for what they term as 'culturally sensetive.' I am not amrit-cchak, but even so I always wear my kara. When I did theatre work it would always go into my pocket, in my scrubs, under the gown.

I would in the first instance go and speak to the Clinical Director (assuming you are a doctor) and explain what you can forsee, becoming an issue. Also write a letter to Infection Control. Explain that the kara is steel (no need to go into details ie iron, sarabloh etc) and that when you wash hands, you also gel or wash your kara. Explain its religious significance (details not neccessary) and the need for you to wear it. Wedding bands are worn for cultural-superstitious reasons ie some English people think its a curse to remove them and these harbour more bugs than anywhere else because of the engravings and tight fit. The kara is smooth and not snug against the skin ie it does not trap bacteria. They will have to let you wear it. As a last resort get a petition from all the Sikhs working in the Trust from tea ladies to porters to docs and nurses and admin staff.

I never wear gloves all the time between patients as it is impractical, and lacks evidence base as an effective barrier against the bugs that they are tring to be rid off. Further more a human touch is a humane touch and part of the doctor-patient interaction. If a patient is socially clean there is no need for such barrier when doing simple examinations or taking bloods.

All the best and please post the outcome.

Veer Ji, that's a great and helpful e-mail! I do the same - in surgery i just pop my kara in my back pocket. it's just really annoying when you forget, and sit down really hard on a hard stool. not a lot of fun :S lol

I think the bare-below elbows policy has some merit but the BMA wrote an article saying it could potentially cost lives, because if doctors can't acurately count the pulse rate or resp rate and we guess, it could potentially impact on patient care. they asked 100 doctors to guess someone's pulse without a watch and only 3% got it right. of course, i think the BMA was just moaning about it because in practise most rooms have a clock and most A&E departments would have a pulse oximiter handy. just thought i'd share this, that's all!

Tell that AMA in US... no wonder ppl come to US for best medical care...lol

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

Thanks for the responses,

Guru has been on my side, and I am allowed to wear it so long as it is kept high up the arm and wrapped, then taped over top. This is an effective solution and I am quite grateful, and glad that I didn't give up on my faith.

If people can wear wedding bands, why not be able to wear Kara which is a part of the Sikh image? I literally feel naked without it.

Thanks everyone, please maintain your Saroop Diligently, do not act in anger, just pray and it will come true because you will believe in the world being changed for you.

In the words of Sikh Coalition:

The Coalition urges the Sikhs to wear their articles of faith, including the kirpan, freely.

Gurfateh

hmm you have to put tape over the top?

I work in microbiology with all the funky bacteria and that lol.

I have to push my kara up to the top of my arm, then put a tight sweat band on top of it. I wouldnt use tape though, as when removing it, you mite remove some of ur kesh from ur arm.

[s8220]

I must say, I agree with Temporary.

If you're on orthopaedics, any infection to a wound site can be potentially fatal. it's better to take the hit yourself, Waheguru will know that your actions are altruistic. I agree that it's unfair about the wedding rings issue, but that doesn't matter - we must protect our patients first!

But, if you do want help and assistance, you've got it. Just mobilise the troops, so to speak

Wedding rings are not unfair at all, b/c you are supposed to be following BSI standards, thus gloves serving as barier b/w pt and mp...

I just wanted to mention this before you guys go on mobilizing and at the end are told, "duh, shouldn't you be wearing gloves???"

No need to remove the ring, unless ofcourse you got a 'phat' one or don't wear gloves...lol

I have no idea what BMI standards are - we don't use that term in the UK! But if your say palpating an abdomen, performing a peripheral neuro exam or something like that, no one ever wears gloves. Only for invasive procudures or checking wound healing etc would one don gloves. Hence, the blanket ban on kareh but allowing of wedding bands IS unfair. But again, I don't particularly mind it because if it protects patients then it is justified in my opinion

Is that seriously true? LOL, Here is US before you touch a patient you put on gloves, but there are exceptions such taking vitals etc.

Hi.

I''m in A&E NTGH and have never had a problem in the West Midlands or Northumbria Trusts. Here we have a bare-below-elbows-policy, but under the Trust policies there are exceptions for what they term as 'culturally sensetive.' I am not amrit-cchak, but even so I always wear my kara. When I did theatre work it would always go into my pocket, in my scrubs, under the gown.

I would in the first instance go and speak to the Clinical Director (assuming you are a doctor) and explain what you can forsee, becoming an issue. Also write a letter to Infection Control. Explain that the kara is steel (no need to go into details ie iron, sarabloh etc) and that when you wash hands, you also gel or wash your kara. Explain its religious significance (details not neccessary) and the need for you to wear it. Wedding bands are worn for cultural-superstitious reasons ie some English people think its a curse to remove them and these harbour more bugs than anywhere else because of the engravings and tight fit. The kara is smooth and not snug against the skin ie it does not trap bacteria. They will have to let you wear it. As a last resort get a petition from all the Sikhs working in the Trust from tea ladies to porters to docs and nurses and admin staff.

I never wear gloves all the time between patients as it is impractical, and lacks evidence base as an effective barrier against the bugs that they are tring to be rid off. Further more a human touch is a humane touch and part of the doctor-patient interaction. If a patient is socially clean there is no need for such barrier when doing simple examinations or taking bloods.

All the best and please post the outcome.

Veer Ji, that's a great and helpful e-mail! I do the same - in surgery i just pop my kara in my back pocket. it's just really annoying when you forget, and sit down really hard on a hard stool. not a lot of fun :S lol

I think the bare-below elbows policy has some merit but the BMA wrote an article saying it could potentially cost lives, because if doctors can't acurately count the pulse rate or resp rate and we guess, it could potentially impact on patient care. they asked 100 doctors to guess someone's pulse without a watch and only 3% got it right. of course, i think the BMA was just moaning about it because in practise most rooms have a clock and most A&E departments would have a pulse oximiter handy. just thought i'd share this, that's all!

Tell that AMA in US... no wonder ppl come to US for best medical care...lol

lol, yes yes. America has been at the forefront of medicine for decades now, hunnah? You know, because they invented:

Penicillin, (St Marys, Imperial College, wohoo),

Discovered DNA stucture,

Vaccination,

MRI,

Ultrasound,

Monoclonal Antibodies (Infliximab, Kennedy Institute Charing Cross, Imperial College wohoo),

Da Vinci laparoscopic robot (St Marys, Imperial College, wohoo),

The NHS

lol, no but seriously, American health care rocks

[rimmel]

I think we should discuss the differences between the British and American Healthcare later.

I would like to know about the laws for UK sikh medics. Msckan did you find any in your research??

I have a similar issue regarding kara. I am a medical student and I wear my kara all the time and until recently it did not cause me any problems. ie I have worn it in and out of theatre. I have even scrubbed with it on and pulled out some varicose veins!

However today I had to do my scrub assessment. I got told I have to take my kara off. I was told I have to make a choice between my 'bangle' and my career! She failed my scrub assessment because of that!! I'm going back in 2 hours to get someone else to do it - hopefully that lady will be off at lunch!

I am fairly frustrated as I have been trying to get my scrub assessment signed off for a week now and its wasting my time to wait around theatres to see who is free to watch me scrub. I am meant to be at my breast firm and I have exams in less than 3 weeks so this is the last thing I need.

Anyways I am not going to take my kara off because I don't believe its an infection risk. Its scrubbed and is up my arm covered by the surgeon's long sleeved gown (very different from those wearing wedding rings). Also I would like to add I used to wear 2 kara's before. One was the mala kara and the other one was a normal round kara. I personally took the decision to not wear a mala kara because I felt it was a risk due to its rounded beads being unscrubbable. However I continue to wear a normal kara as I believe it is not a risk. I actually think its unfair that people are allowed to wear their wedding rings and we have to take our kara off.

Also interestingly as a side when I was doing my BSc essay on ‘MRSA and its implications in Surgery’ I came across alot of papers regarding how growth and adherence of bacteria is affected by material and metal was considered a low risk....prehaps this is the reason the Guru said kara was meant to be of certain material?!

Anyways since I am not going to take my kara off - I need to know the right of Sikhs please. Can someone post the links to the organisations which represent sikh medics.

Thanks.

btw I don't think my PM works....this is fairly troublesome at the moment as it means I cannot send or receive PM’s. S1ngh/lowest of the lowest penji if you read this can u please look into this as I get a message saying my PM function has been disabled.