Ragi Darshan Singh Pushed And Booed By Surrey Sangat

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

well we both got our points across.

something the panth hasn't been able to resolve in over centuries is not going to be resolved by two people on a forum.

my only suggestion is don't be so cynical about everything and everyone. because at the end of the day, the "two sides" which have been declared both say the same thing, we want to respect Guru sahib and not let RSS type people distort sikhi. I hear this from both sides. so everybody wants the same thing.

take care.

peace.

[Inder Singh]

well we both got our points across.

something the panth hasn't been able to resolve in over centuries is not going to be resolved by two people on a forum.

my only suggestion is don't be so cynical about everything and everyone. because at the end of the day, the "two sides" which have been declared both say the same thing, we want to respect Guru sahib and not let RSS type people distort sikhi. I hear this from both sides. so everybody wants the same thing.

take care.

peace.

A ridiculous ,false and misleading statement.The panth has never doubted Dasam granth in 300 years.Some rogue characters and thugs masquersading as sikhs of akirtghan kala afghana have posed this as a probelm.This problem is festered and sustatined. by them.

I have read Dasam Granth and i can vouch as whole of Dasam granth is by tenth master.Do not quote portions out of context.This is dishonesty.See the essence of compositions of Chaubis avtar and bachitra natak and understand wht is myth,metaphor,symbolism and then read Dasam granth.None of these rogue chraracters who are not nitnemi sikhs have read DG.

Udasis are a cult / sect not Khalsa or Sikhs Sri Chand was a useless person no good for nothing,

Udasis may be anything but they also scarificed for khalsa panth.Their leader mahanat vKirpal showed an examplery bravery in battle of Bhangani alongwith guru ji.

Thos who bad mouth the scarifices of sikhs for khalas panth are not sons of their parents.

you are twisting things. these banis are not doing ustat of avtaars, instead they are showing that avtaars have flaws, are not perfect, and only one lord alone should be worshipped.

You use alarmist arguments like: "The supporters of so called Dasam Granth wants to merge Sikhs into Hindus and make them characterless as Iqbal Singh himself is."

However, Sant Jarnail Singh ji fully believed in and supported Dasam Granth Sahib ji. In fact, Dasam Granth is parallel prakash at Taksaali gurdwaras in India. Did Sant ji work to merge sikhs into hindus??

Here's a brief synopsis of some of the Dasam Granth banis with the word avtaar in the title:

CHOUBEES AVATAR

This is a very important literary piece. In this the stories of twenty-three Avatars of lord Vishnu have been included. These are Machch, Kachch, Nar, Narain, Mohini, Varaha, Narsingha, Baman, Parasram, Brahma, Rudra, Jallandhar, Bisan, Sheshmai, Arihant, Dev, Manu Raja, Dhanantar, Sooraj, Chandra, Ram Krishan, Nar (Arjan), Budh and Nehkalanki. Of these, Krishnavatar is the longest followed by Ramavatar and then Nehkalanki avatar. While some of the facts included are as per the scriptures, the writer has also used his own imagination to further elaborate on the facts.

At the beginning, Guru Gobind Singh Ji has clearly stated his aim for writing this literary piece. In this God has been referred to as the source and fountain head from which all avatars have come forth. Whenever the earth gets weighed down by evil and sin, God sends down lord Vishnu as an avatar. But even the avatars fall prey to their inflated ego hence face the displeasure of God who then sends another avatar. Each of these avatars is an expert at martial arts and strategies. It is this aspect of their personalities that is of utmost significance to the Guru.

UP AVATAR

This composition follows Chaubees Avatar. It begins by narrating the incidents and experiences of Brahma. But in this too there is the Îfallâ because of an inflated ego and excessive pride. At Godâs behest Brahma wrote the Vedas, but fell a victim to vanity. For this he was sent down on earth and it took him ages to rise again in the estimation of God. Finally, when he was successful in pleasing God, he was told that he would have to go down to earth and take the form of seven avatars. These were Balmik, Kashyap, Shukra, Brahaspati, Vyas, Sastrodharak and Kalidasa.

There are no such references in any of the existing scriptures. This composition is the outcome of Guru Gobind Singh Jiâs imagination.

The references to Brahma are followed by two avatars of Rudra-Dattatreya and Parasnath. Rudra too fell prey to conceit and suffered for it like Brahma. Similarly he had to take on the form of two avatars to redeem his mistake.

On reading these episodes on finds that the various avatars can be categorized under three heads. Shastradhari or those who took up arms and fought for right, Shaastradhari or those who on the strength of their knowledge fought for right and Kalyankari-these who transformed the world through their good deeds. Thus, whichever form they took, the fight was against the evil forces. The most important point that emerges on reading these compositions is that Guru Ji has not given undue and excessive importance to any avatar. He clearly states and believes that though an avatar has a divine spark in him, he is not God. Actually Guru Ji wanted to dispel the false belief that there can be different Gods. He wanted the people to understand that there is only One God.

KHALSA MAHIMA

This has four verses. It delineates the glory that is associated with the Khalsa. Guru Ji explains the role of the Khalsa to the priests who had come to perform a yagna. He says that it is only through the Khalsa that all achievements have been possible for him.

CHARITROPAKHIYAN

This composition highlights the various faces of woman. While the positive roles played by woman as a wife, as a mother, as a soldier are outlined, the negative aspect of some women who stoop to lowly activities has also been brought out.

It begins by elucidating the extreme bravery and courage of Devi Bhagwati and highlights her various deeds of glory. This is followed by the various positive ways in which women contribute to the welfare of their families in particular and society in general. The examples are drawn from the Mahabharata, Puranas, Brihat Katha, Katha Sahitya Saagar, Alif Laila, Ayaarey Dayish and other comtemporary literature. On reading about the various characters included in this composition one also gets an insight into the culture, tradition and values of the society and region of which they are a part.

Thus, through the given examples, Guru Ji has formulated a very strong value system for the reader, laying down rules to be upheld and followed by both men and women so that a society free from all mortal sins may be formed.

from gobindsadan.org

Veerji

You have extracted "from gobindsadan.org " which is a anti-sikh organization. They worship idols of Baba Sri Chand, Jesus Christ, Mother Mary. Visit Gobind sadan's web site http://www.gobindsadan.net/gallery2/main.php and see what they do.

You have written " However, Sant Jarnail Singh ji fully believed in and supported Dasam Granth Sahib ji. In fact, Dasam Granth is parallel prakash at Taksaali gurdwaras in India. Did Sant ji work to merge sikhs into hindus?"

Taksaali Gurudwaras are place of Brahamanical rituals. Read Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale's book, " Gurbani Paath Darshan ", you will get to know what they want. Full of rituals. Sant Jarnail Singh was a warrior, what he did is matchless. But if he supported Dasam Granth doesn't mean his wordings are final and supreme. Taksaal made his Qurbani worthless by telling lies that he is Alive, for more than 20 years in front of SGGS.

If Sikhs can't learn from SGGS which is Shabad Guru, ordered by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji as "Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam hai, Guru Maneyo Granth", what they will learn from so called Dasam Granth which even he didn't promoted.

Sikh can read Dasam Granth, and other scriptures but our only Guru is SGGS. Do you do prakash of Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, Bhai Nand Lal's ghazals, which are sung in Gurudwaras. NO........ then why DG.

Taksalis read Upnashids, Purans, Vedas and every other Hindu scriptures, then do the parallel prakash of these also with SGGS.

A complete nonsense by GOI agent Chak de phate.How many scarifices the anti dasam Bani brigade ahs given for sikh panth?All these rogues are agents of GOI.

Taksali maryada is oldest in sikh panth.I will take you to a taksali Gurdwara and show me where they believ in Hinduism>Accept the challenge.Reveal your locationa nd name.

[apne]

As would be easily evident from the comments...no one here is a scholar on the subject. *edited* While an example has been given of SGPC commitee, even they accepted that some of the parts were not from the pen of Dasam Pitah. The Udasis were good only till Gurujis time, don't forget that it were Udasis who brought Brahminical practises such as idol worship, seeing horoscopes etc. into Gurdwaras. And the less we talk about Virsa Singh the better. I have personally met him atleast twice, have also visited Gobind Sadan. He was, according to me, under brahminical influences. I lost respect for him after my second meeting.

Guys, personally, i would like to beat the <admin-profanity filter activated> out of this Darshan Singh. But, please don't forget that this year we are celebrating tri-cenetary of JUGO JUG ATAL SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ. So, lets not forget who our Guru is and where our actions should be directed.

And the work of Dasam Pitah in Dasam Granth is equally holy and divine, but not of his poets.

[SunSingh]

As would be easily evident from the comments...no one here is a scholar on the subject. *edited* While an example has been given of SGPC commitee, even they accepted that some of the parts were not from the pen of Dasam Pitah. The Udasis were good only till Gurujis time, don't forget that it were Udasis who brought Brahminical practises such as idol worship, seeing horoscopes etc. into Gurdwaras. And the less we talk about Virsa Singh the better. I have personally met him atleast twice, have also visited Gobind Sadan. He was, according to me, under brahminical influences. I lost respect for him after my second meeting.

Guys, personally, i would like to beat the <admin-profanity filter activated> out of this Darshan Singh. But, please don't forget that this year we are celebrating tri-cenetary of JUGO JUG ATAL SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ. So, lets not forget who our Guru is and where our actions should be directed.

And the work of Dasam Pitah in Dasam Granth is equally holy and divine, but not of his poets.

If it's so clear that nobody on this forum is a scholar, than who are you to say that parts of Dasam Granth Sahib ji are not Gurbani?

SGPC accepted all of Dasam Granth Sahib ji as Gurbani. Where did they only accept part?

[apne]

It was originally known as ''Bachitar Natak'' by Bhai Mani Singh in 18th century, and even he was very clear in deciphering half a dozen compositions as those of guruji , while rest belonged to his court poets. There was a lot of protest to seperate Gurbani from that of court poets, and as already stated earlier the decision was made not on logic, but chance. It was about hundered years later that it came to be known as ''Dasam Granth'', a name given by brahminical forces, not un-mischievously. :gg:

[SunSingh]

It was originally known as ''Bachitar Natak'' by Bhai Mani Singh in 18th century, and even he was very clear in deciphering half a dozen compositions as those of guruji , while rest belonged to his court poets. There was a lot of protest to seperate Gurbani from that of court poets, and as already stated earlier the decision was made not on logic, but chance. It was about hundered years later that it came to be known as ''Dasam Granth'', a name given by brahminical forces, not un-mischievously. :gg:

The collection of the 10th Guru's bani has had a number of name changes. Man I'm getting tired of this. there were 2 major panthic level conferences, one in late 1800's, one in 20th century by sgpc. they decided to keep it together as well.

Dasam Granth is a shortened version of Dasam Patshah ka Granth. Nothing wrong or bhramanical about this.

This discussion is going in circles. You guys keep ignoring key points. :lol:

Now, who are these bhramanical forces. Name the specific groups in the panth responsible. It seems liek these shadowy bhramanical forces seem to pop up whenever ignorant sikhs dislike something about the dharam.

[apne]

The collection of the 10th Guru's bani has had a number of name changes. Man I'm getting tired of this. there were 2 major panthic level conferences, one in late 1800's, one in 20th century by sgpc. they decided to keep it together as well.

Dasam Granth is a shortened version of Dasam Patshah ka Granth. Nothing wrong or bhramanical about this.

This discussion is going in circles. You guys keep ignoring key points. :lol:

Now, who are these bhramanical forces. Name the specific groups in the panth responsible. It seems liek these shadowy bhramanical forces seem to pop up whenever ignorant sikhs dislike something about the dharam.

yes, they decided to keep it together, but that does not mean that all of the work is of Guruji. Dasam Granth is no doubt a shortened version but devised by brahmins. You cannot ignore the fact that after banda Bahadurs death till rise of misls, Sikh history is full of dark bloody chapters. and no genuine sikh accounts exists during that period, because sikhs were fighting for existence. The brahmins were aided by UDASIS and NIRMALAS. The nirmalas did provided interpretation of Gurbani, but gave it vedantic interpretation. the Deras were originally established by nirmalas. After the death of Bhai mani singh and Nawab Kapur Singh, caste hindus such as Rama Randhawa , Karma Chinna etc. tried to subvert sikhi for their gains and aided brahmins in distorting sikh writings.

One of the famous distorters is Koer singh Kalal, who added 41st // in 'vaaran bhai gurdas' and showed guruji as worshipping Durga. he admiited that he was sikh only in name and took the name 'Kala'l to gain respect from name of Jassa singh kalal. (read 'gurbilas patshahi dasvin' 1751) then came large number of converts from vaishnav hindus, who are still posing a challange to sikhi.

then came your famous Kesar singh Chibber, who had devout sikh ancestors like Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Sati Das. He also distorted sikh doctrines.To him, the main purpose of sikh rule should have been protection of brahmins. (read 'banswali nama' 1769)

another was Sarup Das Bhalla (Mahima parkash, 1776), descendant of Guru Amar Das ji, tried to gain respectable positions for descendants of sikh gurus including dhir Mal, Prithi chand etc. who were detractors of sikhi.

There was also Gurbilas Patshahi 6, 1718, by sohan kavi, who brings in lot of rituals contradicting sikh theology.

baba virsa singh has named Ashok singhal as one of his trustees in his will.ashok singhal is head of RSS and claims sikhs are hindus. And it would be tiresome to include the names of many other sant babas, as list is too long.

I am not saying that dasam granth does not have gurujis bani. I am saying that not all of it is his work. i am unable to find the exact thing, but the sgpc committee agreed that some parts were not work of guruji.

[Inder Singh]

As would be easily evident from the comments...no one here is a scholar on the subject. *edited* While an example has been given of SGPC commitee, even they accepted that some of the parts were not from the pen of Dasam Pitah. The Udasis were good only till Gurujis time, don't forget that it were Udasis who brought Brahminical practises such as idol worship, seeing horoscopes etc. into Gurdwaras. And the less we talk about Virsa Singh the better. I have personally met him atleast twice, have also visited Gobind Sadan. He was, according to me, under brahminical influences. I lost respect for him after my second meeting.

Guys, personally, i would like to beat the <admin-profanity filter activated> out of this Darshan Singh. But, please don't forget that this year we are celebrating tri-cenetary of JUGO JUG ATAL SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ. So, lets not forget who our Guru is and where our actions should be directed.

And the work of Dasam Pitah in Dasam Granth is equally holy and divine, but not of his poets.

SGPC is no authority on scritpures.SGPC letter is fake.There is no signature on that.

I agree during this year there should be no controversy.But Darshan singh is raking up on purpose.

The collection of the 10th Guru's bani has had a number of name changes. Man I'm getting tired of this. there were 2 major panthic level conferences, one in late 1800's, one in 20th century by sgpc. they decided to keep it together as well.

Dasam Granth is a shortened version of Dasam Patshah ka Granth. Nothing wrong or bhramanical about this.

This discussion is going in circles. You guys keep ignoring key points. :lol:

Now, who are these bhramanical forces. Name the specific groups in the panth responsible. It seems liek these shadowy bhramanical forces seem to pop up whenever ignorant sikhs dislike something about the dharam.

yes, they decided to keep it together, but that does not mean that all of the work is of Guruji. Dasam Granth is no doubt a shortened version but devised by brahmins. You cannot ignore the fact that after banda Bahadurs death till rise of misls, Sikh history is full of dark bloody chapters. and no genuine sikh accounts exists during that period, because sikhs were fighting for existence. The brahmins were aided by UDASIS and NIRMALAS. The nirmalas did provided interpretation of Gurbani, but gave it vedantic interpretation. the Deras were originally established by nirmalas. After the death of Bhai mani singh and Nawab Kapur Singh, caste hindus such as Rama Randhawa , Karma Chinna etc. tried to subvert sikhi for their gains and aided brahmins in distorting sikh writings.

One of the famous distorters is Koer singh Kalal, who added 41st // in 'vaaran bhai gurdas' and showed guruji as worshipping Durga. he admiited that he was sikh only in name and took the name 'Kala'l to gain respect from name of Jassa singh kalal. (read 'gurbilas patshahi dasvin' 1751) then came large number of converts from vaishnav hindus, who are still posing a challange to sikhi.

then came your famous Kesar singh Chibber, who had devout sikh ancestors like Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Sati Das. He also distorted sikh doctrines.To him, the main purpose of sikh rule should have been protection of brahmins. (read 'banswali nama' 1769)

another was Sarup Das Bhalla (Mahima parkash, 1776), descendant of Guru Amar Das ji, tried to gain respectable positions for descendants of sikh gurus including dhir Mal, Prithi chand etc. who were detractors of sikhi.

There was also Gurbilas Patshahi 6, 1718, by sohan kavi, who brings in lot of rituals contradicting sikh theology.

baba virsa singh has named Ashok singhal as one of his trustees in his will.ashok singhal is head of RSS and claims sikhs are hindus. And it would be tiresome to include the names of many other sant babas, as list is too long.

I am not saying that dasam granth does not have gurujis bani. I am saying that not all of it is his work. i am unable to find the exact thing, but the sgpc committee agreed that some parts were not work of guruji.

All pasrts of Dasam Granth is from tenth master.We have two manuscripts in uSA that have all parts but no zafarnama and compilation dates go to year 1697.Zafarnama was written after Guru left Anandpur sahib and that is included in Bhai mani singh bir..

[apne]

Why is it that in the 1980’s, Prof. Darshan Singh chose to hold talks with intelligence agents and Government officials but today he cannot sit with GurSikhs to resolve the ‘issue’ of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. In recent times he has held events from Sri Hazoor Sahib and spoken against the status of Sri Dasam Granth but he could not attend the convention at Damdama Sahib.

In the matter of Sri Dasam Granth, there are two sides holding opposing views. What is the problem that Prof. Darshan Singh has in sitting down with the other side to resolve it? Such double-standards shown by Prof. Darshan Singh suggest a lot. There are people who like to spark a fire and then escape to save themselves and Prof. Darshan Singh has done the same. He has caused doubts in minds of so many youth, who today are ready to go after each other's throats on the matter of Sri Dasam Granth. This blame clearly lies on Darshan Singh himself.

taken from panthic.org

Oye isnu [darshane nu] gaddi chaad do!

[Budda Dal]

Raagi darshan is lost. He is himself confused about DG. What is he going to teach others about it?