New Nirmala Website

[N30S1NGH]

Which Deevan? I have heard them say that Khande Bhattey da Amrit is absolutely essential in the house of Guru Nanak, and hence the Rehat as well.

I have heard the divan few years ago. I ll try to dig deep for that devan. As there are +160 divans of sant maharaj ji, so that will take some time. But i can confirm it was divan not a atamik bachan tape. In the meantime, i ll find some references from sant attar singh jevani on this.

Infact, non-Amritdharis weren't allowed to do Akhand Paath Sahib duties and this is still the case at Hapur and Dhablan. There are still a few Singhs around who were bhujangis under Sant Ji - the ones I've spoken to say the same thing - that Sant Ji was very very strict about Rehat and what was expected from the Singhs i.e. Amritvela etc. It's the same with Singhs from Rerusahib etc.

I have no problem with that, as i said in my previous post- i ll write in bold just to further make it crystal clear.

sant isher singh ji rara sahib himself used to say in divans, so far there were few sehajdhari mahapursh (trimmed hair) in the panth, and they are parvan in the panth and in nirmal mandal as they belong to mastane category of bhramgyani sikhs

In all the deevans I have heard, I have never come across them saying that an exception was ever made for Kakkars - in fact they often say the opposite, that Singhs would rather die than go against Guru Ji's bachan. Have you heard their deevan "Khalsa Panth Da Saajna"?

I never said in the divan sant ji said there was an exception made for kakars. However, he clearly did say there are few sehajdhari mahapursh in the panth, take it whichever way you want. I don't know what he meant by sehajdhari mahapursh. I take sehajdhari as someone who trims their hair based on hakumnamas of sehajdaris written by sri guru gobind singh ji.

i'm not disputing that there are a few 'mastane' who lose all attachment with the physical world but that's not relevant.

Thats exactly my point though, you are asking me something that you are not disputing.

Please read my post very carefully next time. I ll bold keywords from my previous post so there is no confusion, there is no jumping the gun, there is no twisting words or putting words in my mouth that i somehow suggesting that normal joe blow should cut their hair or be sehajdhari just because there are exceptional cases.

Sant isher singh ji rara sahib himself used to say in divans, so far there were few sehajdhari mahapursh (trimmed hair) in the panth, and they are parvan in the panth and in nirmal mandal as they belong to mastane category of bhramgyani sikhs, they are exceptional cases.

stay tuned until i dig deep for that divan where sant maharaj ji talks about rare sehajdhari mahapursh in the panth but for time being, here is picture of sehajdhari mahapursh taken from sant jawala singh ji harkhowale jivan kiranie pusthak, there was lot of prem between this picture picture below and sant jawala singh ji, you can read more about him in the jeevan kiranaie.

[big5abi]

Thanks for the great replies, despite a few.

BHAI DAYA SINGH JI

(FIRST PYARA)

+

BABA SOBHA SINGH JI

(ANANDPUR SAHIB)

+

SAHIB SINGH BEDI

(UNA SAHIB WALE)

+

BABA BHAG SINGH JI

(KURHI)

+

BABA BIR SINGH JI

(NAURANGABADI)

+

BABA KHUDA SINGH JI

(LAHORE)

+

BABA BHAG SINGH JI

(LOPON)

+

BABA MITT SINGH JI

(LOPON)

+

SANT DARBARA SINGH JI

(LOPON)

+

SANT JORA SINGH JI

(LOPON)

+

SANT JAGJIT SINGH JI

(LOPON)

This lineage in Lopon had begun when the Sixth master Guru Hargobind had come to Lopon. While there they had foretold a succession of mystics that will flourish within the pind. They had also said that the mahapursh on the gaddi will have no less than 108 lives of spiritual earnings and he will not descend lower than the fourth state of turiya.

Who are you to say that Guru Hargobind Singh's bachan have not come to pass. Sant Darbara Singhs coming was also foretold by Guru Hargobind Sahib.

This sampradaye in Lopon is now known as Sant Darbara Singh Sampradaye. Just as the sun dynasty is synonymously known as Raghu Kul.

Sant Darbara Singh was a pooran Sant and his Guru was an al-mast faqir. The difference does not lie within their hasti, but within their daily conductivity. Sant Mitt Singh was considered al-mast because he would always remain intoxicated with mystical experiences roaming around the pind.

The reason for the cow sanctuary is because Sant Darbara Singh had rescued the cows from butchers three times. After rescuing them they had built a cow sanctuary for them in Lopon. Currently there are roughly 7 thousand cows in the sanctuary where no milk is taken from them and no work is done by them.

When the 5 nirmalay, which have been previously posted by one of my veers, went to study they had been sent back because of their warrior attire. Guru Gobind Singh ji had then told them to change into the peach garb of an ascetic and to go back. Thus had the nirmalay sampradais begun.

As per the statement by khalistan zindabad, I think it has been justly addressed by veer Valli Singh. If Guru Gobind Singh had removed the weapons from the five sikhs in order to acquire knowledge from kashi, I don't see how Baba Gurbachan Singhs statement that khalistan zindabad had quoted, about nirmalay requiring to chak Amrit From Panj Pyareh keeping 5 Kakkar Rehit and wearing White clothes should be taken as higher than our 10th father. Gurbachan Singhs Guru was also a nirmala but had joined the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha in 1911. Baba Gurbachan Singhs statement seems to have been influenced by mainstream Sikhi, which does not take away from his hasti.

Harinder Singhs comment "Thats true. This seems to be an attempt to brahamanize sikhi. Such fake nirmalas who cut ther kesh, dont chakk amrit SHUD BE BURNT ALIVE."

Harinder Singh obviously you do not have any knowledge of Sanatan Sikhism. Your are carrying alot of karmic weight upon your shoulders by slandering saints. Did Guru Gobind Singh ji brahmanize sikhi when they sent the 5 sikhs in peach robes to learn. When the sikhs had returned Guru Gobind Singh had allowed them to remain in the same garb. I think you are misinformed about sanatan views or that you do not have any and are just jumping upon the band wagon with the tat khalsa and fanatical sikh views. I suggest you seek spiritual help as suggesting to inflict pain on a saint is a maha paap. These forums are to spread love and knowledge not to spread hate and subhuman tendencies. Nirmala maryada and khalsa maryada are considered seperate from each other and nirmalay are older than the Khalsa, so I suggest you should read some history before leaving absurdly blasphemous comments.

Sant Darabara Singh had reconstructed 80 gurudwaras in Punjab after which he had handed them over to the SGPC. Including the complete construction of kiratpur Sahib, where he had darshan of Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, he had filled 200 roads with asphalt and had built close to 100 schools including the Sant Darbara Singh college for women in the 60's in lopon, which was recently rated in the top 5 colleges in Punjab.

The issues some had regarding the kesh have been addressed by valli singh. Sant Darbara Singh had never cut the hair from his head nor his moustache, the beard was only shaven. Again, the internal mystical experience of a saint cannot be known to those who are not mystical themselves.

[Mista Singh]

Ive heard of Mastane Sants in the Khalsa Panth beofre but never knew one to shave his dhara...Thanks for the replies to my questions though, appreciated.

[Matheen]

Ive heard of Mastane Sants in the Khalsa Panth beofre but never knew one to shave his dhara...Thanks for the replies to my questions though, appreciated.

True, especially since Guru Sahib wrote that his Sikhs should not come before Him without Kesh and weapons.

Chalo, Jo Guru Noo Bhaunda.......

P.S. Interesting lineage. Most other branches of the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda show that Baba Khuda Ji (Baba Jaswant Singh Ji) didn't have any successor.

Are there any contemporary sources that state Guru Ji gave permission to remove shaster?

[big5abi]

Questions regarding kesh and other issues brought up have been addressed by Valli Singh's post which was prior to mine.

[UKGupt Kaur]

The reason for the cow sanctuary is because Sant Darbara Singh had rescued the cows from butchers three times. After rescuing them they had built a cow sanctuary for them in Lopon. Currently there are roughly 7 thousand cows in the sanctuary where no milk is taken from them and no work is done by them.

Is that why they have now become 'sacred' hence the title of the gallery. A good seva would have been to donate the cows to the poor not keep them like some hindu sacred cows.

Your sant and your sanctuary have totally ignored gurmat and has become attached to bipran ki reet.

What is WRONG with you guys?

[Mista Singh]

The reason for the cow sanctuary is because Sant Darbara Singh had rescued the cows from butchers three times. After rescuing them they had built a cow sanctuary for them in Lopon. Currently there are roughly 7 thousand cows in the sanctuary where no milk is taken from them and no work is done by them.

Is that why they have now become 'sacred' hence the title of the gallery. A good seva would have been to donate the cows to the poor not keep them like some hindu sacred cows.

Your sant and your sanctuary have totally ignored gurmat and has become attached to bipran ki reet.

What is WRONG with you guys?

Allow it man, let them do their thing..

[valli singh]

UK Gupt Kaur

You are obviously a self-righteous Neo-Sikh khalistani ignoramous

possessing NO knowledge of Purataan Sikh history prior to the arrival of the British and the SGPC.

First of all cows are sacred in Indian culture and Sikh Philosphy because the cow is the highest birth in lakh chaurasi, and thus the transmigratory chain can be seen as an evolutionary process extending from non-sentient mineral lifeforms and sentient insectoids and rising through the reptilian and mamalian species (such as the cow) before progressing into the human form.

This is why the consumption of beef is considered such a sin, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh ji were VERY vocal about enforcing the death penalty upon the killers of cows, and they even refered to themselves many times as being 'Gopal' or the protectors of cows. In Khalsa Raj under Maharaja Ranjit Singh it was also a hanging offense to kill cows, Sri Baba Sahib Singh Bedi Maharaj exterminated whole villages of beef-eaters simply for killing cows. Are these Mahapurukhs attached to bipran ki reet as you so eloquently put it?

Sant Darbara Singh was a maste fakir and pooran brahmgyani who had darshan of Dashmesh Pita, what do you know of that Gurmat?

Santji forcibly shut down many meat production plants in Punjab and rescued the cows that is upholding God's Dharam, at Lopon they are respected and not put under any strain, if they were given away how would their safety be ensured.

[valli singh]

Ive heard of Mastane Sants in the Khalsa Panth beofre but never knew one to shave his dhara...Thanks for the replies to my questions though, appreciated.

True, especially since Guru Sahib wrote that his Sikhs should not come before Him without Kesh and weapons.

Chalo, Jo Guru Noo Bhaunda.......

P.S. Interesting lineage. Most other branches of the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda show that Baba Khuda Ji (Baba Jaswant Singh Ji) didn't have any successor.

Are there any contemporary sources that state Guru Ji gave permission to remove shaster?

Though I don't want to be accused of whipping a dead horse, I must address the sad prevalence of post-British perception of many here who are prone to spitefully or unknowingly demean Sehajdhari Sikhs in a way that even our Gurus NEVER did, in this spirit please consider these excerpts of the contributions of Sehajdhari Sikhs to the Panth and of Guru Gobind Singh, Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Devi's liberal use of the word 'Khalsa' from Sikhnet:

Regarding Sehajdharis,

Two of them – Bhai Nand Lal and Bhai Kanhaiya – enjoyed great esteem. Bhai Nand Lal a great Persian scholar and poet, maintained at Anandpur a Langar or refectory open to visitors all the twenty four hours. Bhai Kanhaiya won the Guru’s admiration and is remembered in the Sikh tradition to this day for the devotion with which he served the wounded in battle, making no distinction between friend and foe.[/color]

In the early part of the eighteenth century when Sikhs suffered fierce persecution and when to be a Keshadhari, that is to bear Kesh or long hair, was to invite sure death, the Sahajdharis looked after their places of worship and protected the households and the kith and kin of those driven to seek safety in hill and jungle.

Some even defied the persecutors and courted martyrdom as did the teenaged Haqiqat Rai, who was beheaded in public for his refusal to disown his Sikh belief and accept Islam.

A leading Sahajdhari Sikh of that time was Kaura Mall, a minister to the Mughal governor of Lahore, Muin ul Mulk (1748-53), who helped the Sikhs in diverse ways in those days of severe trial. He has so much endeared himself to them that they called him Mittha (‘sweet’ in Punjabi) Mall instead of Kaura(which in Punjabi means bitter) Mall.

Sikh tradition also recalls another Sahajdhari, Des Raj of this period who was entrusted by the Khalsa with the task of having reconstructed the Harimandir, demolished by the Afghan invader Ahmed Shah Durrani, in 1762.

Dina Nath was Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s finance minister.

Bhai Vasti Ram, a learned man well versed in Sikh Scripture, enjoyed considerable influence at the court. .......

Regarding Guru Gobind Sigh, Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Devi:

Guru Gobind Singh has been very liberal in his use of the word Khalsa when referring to the Sangat and to the people who have not taken the Amrita and to those whose names do not end in Singh. The following references from the book of Hukamnamas will bring out the truth of the above statement. He wrote on March 12, 1699 before the Baisakhi of that year to the Sangat of Machiwara, that this Sangat is the Khalsa of the Guru.

On Oct 5, 1699 Guru Gobind Singh used the same words to the Sangat of Sarangdeo. It became routine for him to write or use the word Khalsa to any Sangat he addressed. He also used the word to other individuals and even devoted Muslims. He writes to Bhai Mehar Chand, Dharam Chand, and Karam Chand of Khufia Nivas, Bhai Bideraban, and Gulal Chand on Feb 6, 1702 that you are my Khalsa. Another letter of 1704 addressed to Bhai Sukhia, Bhai Mukhia, and Bhai Parsa stated that Sarb Sangat is my Khalsa.

Mata Sundri Ji on Oct 12, 1717 wrote a letter and addressed to many people including Bhai Debi Dass, Bhai Gulab Rai. It stated that Sarbat Sangat is the Khalsa of Akal Purkh. In yet another letter of October 20, 1722, she wrote to Bhai Gul Mehar (Muslim), Bhai Kan Ji, Bhai Duni Chand, Bhai Bakshi Mal, Bhai Sahib Rai, Bhai Kaku Mal, Bhai Jagat Rai, Bhai Rup Chand, Bhai Kirpa Rai, Bhai Chatter Bhoj, Bhai Kaura Mal, Bhai Babu Rai, Bhai Chuna Mal, and Bhai Danja Rai, that you are all Guru Ka Khalsa. In a letter of June 2, 1723, she again wrote the same to Bhai Dodh Singh, Bakhtawar Singh, Hukam Singh, Babar Mal, and Prem Chand. Another letter of hers dated October 18, 1723, addressed to Bhai Chain Singh, Bhai Bhopat Singh, Bhai Alam Singh, and Bhai Mani Singh had similar content. This is also true of another one written to Gur Bakhash on August 10, 1730.

Mata Sahib Devi wrote a similar letter to Bhai Duna, Bhai Sabha, Bhai Ala, and Bhai Bhakta. Another letter of hers, dated March 19, 11730, addressed to Bhai Thaku Dass, Bhai Sahba Mal Chapia, Bhai Sinbhu Nath, and Bhai Sahib Rai carried similar content. Still another letter of April 12, 1759 from Khalsa to Khalsa stated the same.

With all the above references it is pretty clear that the word Khalsa has been used for Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs who believe in Sikh philosophy, follow the ten Gurus, and SGGS. The word Khalsa denotes spiritual character of an individual rather than physical appearance. It should not be used primarily to refer those Sikhs with beard and turbans.

Khalsa is one who remembers the Name of the Lord night and day and who gives no thought to anyone but one God. His quest to be with his Lord remains unquenchable.

Khalsa is one who has full faith and love for his God and who has no faith in worshiping anything else.

[Matheen]

Veer Valli Singh Ji, there is no proof to suggest that Bhai Nand Lal was sehajdhari - have you read his Tankahnama? Why would he write that if he was not Amritdhari?

Fact is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji's OWN writings state that they will not give darshan to those without Kesh and Shastar.

Guru Ji has defined Khalsa in their own words too.

Anyway, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and this has gone off-topic.