Guru Nanak Dev Ji Born A Non Muslim Thanks To Brave Hindus?

[Singhstah]

3. Therefore India was defended between 652 - 1469 ( 900 years) by brave HINDUS, which ensured that by the time of Guru Nanaks birth he was born a HINDU

4. Had these HINDUS not defended India so well ( between 652-1469), the whole of PUNJAB would have been Muslim by the time Guru Nanak was born, and he himslef would have been born a Muslim ,and hence no SIKHI???

In point 3 you state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born a Hindu, do you stand by this statement? Can you explain how an individual can actually be born a part of a religion? Is it possible for me to be born a doctor simply by virtue of my father being a doctor?

In point 3 and 4 you state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji owes his being the eternal Guru to the actions of a group of Hindus, and that there would even be no Sikhi without the actions of these Hindus, do you stand by this statement?

You state that if eternal Nirankar Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji was pargat into a Muslim family, a religion seperate from Sikhi, there would be no Sikhi, but as you state yourself, the family Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji Maharaj was pargat into was Hindu family, however this too is a religion seperate from Sikhi, so if Sikhi was able to be given to the world under these circumstances, why not if Guru Maharaj was pargat to a muslim family? Same thing in this context as Sikhi is neither related to Islam or Hinduism. The only reason I can think someone would say this is that they wish to make some ideological link between Sikhi and Hinduism, i.e. that Sikhi is a sub sect of Hinduism.

Please do reply to my queries.

[Matheen]

Is your 'friend from the library' there as well?

There was no such thing as Afghanistan back then - the Lodhis were Pashtuns and were Muslim.

Which Hindus defended Punjab during 652 - 1469? They didn't do a very good job but it has to be said that Punjabis were always good warriors, but they had lost this spirit by the time Guru Ji came due to passive Hindu beliefs.

Rai Bullar was the local chief where Guru Ji grew up and he too was Muslim, but a good man who didn't seek to forcibly convert his subjects.

Most of what is now Pakistan/North India was under Muslim rule.

[AK-47]

Matheen :

1. At the time of guru Nank Dev ji's birth Sikander Lodhi was King, he was an Afghan not mughal.

these peopLe had a very clear agenda to RULE , Conquer and CONVERT

If it was such a clear agenda, then please provide evidence to support.

Rule and conquer are generally the basics of any invading force which decides to stay put. Other forces may invade for just looting etc.

However again I ask, what evidence is there to say that the rulers before (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) had mass conversion as one of their main agendas. Conversion by preaching or even via economic and social benefits would doubtless have taken place. But to say that they had a CLEAR AGENDA to convert the whole region to islam is a big thing to say. They may have wished it, but again it doesnt mean that this was one of their main efforts at this time.

I dont have a great deal of knowledge in this area, but you seem to be making HUGE assumptions. With Aurangzeb it is obvious that he was a fanatic and wanted all to convert to Islam and followed insane poilicies of oppression to carry this out. Following rulers also did the same. However, this doesnt mean that previous rulers also had the same priorities. You seem to be taking the rule of Aurangzeb and applying it to all the mughal/afghan rulers. Thats just incorrect.

And again as the other singhs have said, whether guru sahib was born in a 'hindu' family or a 'muslim' family etc is totally irrelevant. He was born due to hukum of vaheguru and came to spread gurbani.

[Akal Purkh Ki Fauj]

YAAR! Its not the asking of questionsor their respective answers I have a problem with, its the way you have put your questions across which have a strong scent of cow dung. I strongly suggest you go back to the propaganda school and fine tune your HARDCORENESS YAAR.

[Traveller]

Correct me if I am wrong.... but surely this argument is at fault....not just by the facts not being stated correct....but doesnt anyone else believe that- regardless into what religious surrounding Guru Nanak Ji was born, he would be the harbourer of the Guru's light and ignight the flame of sikhi?

Thats what I first thought when I read the title of the thread...surely it shouldnt matter where or to whom Guru Ji was born...the religion isnt based around hate or based around killing muslims- its about love respect and protection... your anti-islamic title and arguements which hint that sikhi is based on hinduism being around is just silly....

...mayve you should have just had a topic "who defended india up to the initiation of Sikhi"...because my belief is that Sikhi would have come about regardless... Sikhi is through Gods will, surely!?

Sorry if I am incorrect here.

[chhokaranwala]

the time that Guru Nanakdevji came to earth was very different to this day. I have been reading a lot to try and learn the circumstances in which the hukam was given that he come to mankind

Its interesting to note that the real oppression and atrociites on India were committed before the Mughals even came on the scene like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Mohammed Ghori - they killed people in the tens of thousands and according to their own biogrophers tried to convert all the Hindus and Buddhist and the rest - this was the time that a large section of Punjab especially western Punjab became Muslim behind the Muslim armies came people like Baba Farid.

They certainly had an agenda for conversion - Punjab was also Buddhist - look at Taxila and they were all almost killed - we had a large population of Jains who did not survive - the Hindus then began to fight back with the rise of the Rajput clans and the kingdom of Vijaynagara in the south;

- according to some traditaions India was really bloodsoaked in violence in this time -

the same time saw the rise of the Bhagats to try and heal the wounds of the people

into this time strode Guru Nanakdevji as a vision for all mankind amongst all the violence and hatred and bickering between Hindus and Muslims

[Traveller]

My point was that surely it doesnt matter when and where Sikhi arose...at any time there is always religous conflict! By saying that Sikhi was because of a certain divide somewhere in the world means that the religion in itself is only around to solve a certain isolated problem, once its done then everything is done- I find this notion hard to accept....I always thought Sikhi was more universal than that, a religion in its own right and not dependant on other religions being around... i can't understand why this issue is being discussed as if Sikhi wouldnt be around if Guru Ji wasn't born anywhere else in any other religious and cultural climate. - Surely Sikhi would have come about regardless?

Apologies if I am incorrect, I usually refrain from putting my views forward, I am merely trying to learn more...

[chhokaranwala]

interesting points traveller bro

I personally thought it would help me learn more about my faith if I understood the time Guru Nanakdevji came to earth

after all the christians know all the history around Jesus and Romans etc, and the same with the Muslims and Muhammad

then with our people they live among such prejudices and hatreds its hard to sift the truth behind what really happened

personally my respect for Guru Nanak has only increased knowing the violent and dangerous climate in which her was born

can u imagine preaching what he preached at a time when Hindu and Muslims in all parts of India were killing each other by the truckload ?

there were Muslim kings who would kill you just for saying that all religions are equal

there were Hindu warriors who would kill you over a scrap of land

[Traveller]

Parji,

I understand that, but this topic is not asking 'what is the history surrounding Guru Nanak Ji, what was india like before Guru Ji'

The title states anti-islamic views, views that Sikhi is hindu dependant....my issue is with this...sorry if this offends anyone...i would have liked to think that Sikhi entered the world through God's will...and isnt dependant on anything....

Sorry if I am incorrect...I find it hard to believe Sikhi is around because of religious and cultural issues...not around because it is SUPPOSED to be here, unifying people and spreading God's love.

[Bundha]

I think the original question is thinly veiled with a hidden agenda to undermine Guru Sahib Ji.

The truth is that the Mughals (term used generically here) – be they Afghans or not makes no difference - came from the west through the Khyber pass, relentlessly. The land of India was then a patchwork of local principalities and ruled by landlords and princes, they were no match for the invading armies. For the Mughals this was not their first time at conquering foreign lands, they had a tried and trusted process that they followed. It is not necessary for them to convert all the natives at once, this was done in fits and splints as they would have to rush back to their homelands to quell rebellions and attacks from other borders. This is the same reason Ahmad shah Abdhuli kept returning to his homeland and re-entering the Punjab on his was to Delhi at total of 17 times. Where pray were these brave Hindus then? But I digress.

What we sometimes fail to realise is what a vast land India is, it is huge, even forced conversions take time, and they have to be fitted in between other campaigns. The process was to conquer the land and install a ruler and then continue with the conversions but again not all were converted – this was enforced with zeal by Aurangzeb but even he needed time to convert the hindus – many were left to do the lowly and menial jobs. For periods of time an uneasy truce was kept the status quo was kept by the muslin rulers and the bhramins who still kept a hold on the masses. One must remember that many conversions were superficial and underneath the people were still practising hindu values. But the crux of the matter is there was no resistance, there was no organised uprising. For a thousand years India lay prostate as waves upon waves of the invaders came and took away the mothers and daughters , where were the brave hindus then, not one rose to uphold the honour of his mothers and sisters. This was the state that the land was in. Did you know that Hindu weddings used to take place in the middle of the night, because of the local muslin landlord found out or a passing band of invaders saw a wedding they would disrupt the dishonour the bride and women. That is how bad it was in those times, women were kept hidden incase they were taken away for slaves or worst. So to say that the “brave” hindus kept the invaders at bay is laughable were it not for the sacrifices that Sikhs made later on by the truck load.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji writes about the plight of the Hindus in Babur Bani -there is no mention of brave bands of hindus. It is a miracle that there was an India by the time Guru Ji had avatar, but this was due to the mughals having to deal with rebellions and insurrection in other parts of their occupied lands. If was only when Guru Nanak Dev Ji started Akaal tha panth they culminated in the Khalsa that the muslins were driven out.