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harjit nanua

The Laws Of Karma

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Thanks Fresh Singh ji,

Veer Jap Har Har ji, it's all there in the Creation PDF.

Also 'Niranjan' is the name Kabir ji uses for Kal.

Guru's Grace

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Very complicated writings, a lot of implications in them.

I am glad our Gurus chose the right shaloks to be included in SGGS ji.

And whats the deal with Sant Ajaib Singh ji (translator of Anurag Sagar) looking for a Guru outside Guru Granth Sahib ji.

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By amazing karma, we are drawn to HIm. We found the path of Sikhi. We are put onto His path.

Pray, that this goods karma continues.... As Bhagat Kabir writes..

kbIr kUkru rwm ko muqIAw myro nwau ] (1368-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)

kabeer kookar raam ko mutee-aa mayro naa-o.

Kabeer, I am the Lord's dog; Moti is my name.

gly hmwry jyvrI jh iKMcY qh jwau ]74] (1368-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)

galay hamaaray jayvree jah khinchai tah jaa-o. ||74||

There is a chain around my neck; wherever I am pulled, I go. ||74||

waheguru...

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You are right, I agree completely,

now philosophically I understand 'why' it is unfair etc, as we have been discussing here,

but how could karma be fair?

think about it, you do sins in your past life, you are punished in hell etc,

you go through animal rebirths where you have no self consciousness and untold sufferings

and then you are reborn as a blank slate human and you are basically a puppet on a stage

being pulled by the strings of past acts that you have no knowledge of

so that you are forever bouncing between pain and pleasure and being punished

for seemingly no reason, it would have been much more efficent if we knew what we did wrong in

the past, then if we got cancer, we could say 'oh, I got cancer because I poisoned that king in my past life, now my suffering at least makes sense' but we don't even have that.

The reason karma is unfair is because it comes from Kal who demands an eye for an eye,

whereas Dayal (Akal Purukh) actually gives mercy to his disciples and destroys crores of sins,

mountains of sins in a single glance, so if you are under the care of a brahmgiani--life becomes fair

so to speak because they are working for your liberation from this unfair system eternally.

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The only way this would make sense if there was free will where karma can be translated to 'evey action has a consequence'....so the two co-exist mutually...

If as you say there is not freewill then the system is highly unfair as the ones suffering are the innocent party and the causer of it all faces none....

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freewill is like a subjective security blanket that assures us of agency,

bacause it is rooted in the mayavic belief that we are this body and mind as opposed to an eternal atma

in Sikhism it says that man can do nothing, everything is preordained,

whether freewill existed or not the system of karma is unfair,

but if freewill existed how could God be all-knowing?

It would imply that God is limited, if he created all beings

and is omniscent meaning he knows everyones fate and future

as Gurbani says He does how could there be freewill?

if God knows the future it is preordained

Milton's Paradise Lost is a classical text that supports freewill,

the Sikh Gurus do not, if it helps one to believe in it that is fine,

yes well the causer of it all is Kal who is permanently debarred from Sach Khand which

I believe is a fitting punishment for someone who created karma and reincarnation,

Sikhism above all encourages us to recognize God's will over our mind's will

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I dont know how Anurag Sagar is related to Sikhism, and I do not know how it helped you to understand SGGS ji, Valli veer.

The main reason I requested the link to AS was because I liked how you described free will and everything being under the One Lord Gods hands.

How our small human brain would perceive that it can do whatever it wants, when actually the whole play is being controlled by the creator.

Kal, Alakh Niranjan, Dharam Rai, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma are all bad/evil as per AS...., but the Sants and Brahmgyanis respect all../..forms of vishnu..Krishna, Raam.

Would they not treat them differently if their spiritual knowledge matched with whats written in AS. So...I think it would be better if AS is left aside and Gursikhs spend more time with SGGS ji. I read all the 3 parts of AS, except the Future one....around 250-300 pages....a lot of unanswered conflicting information.

Also Kal, Dharam Rai, as you say is undergoing a fitting punishment by being cast out and still treating the souls so badly, by punishing them and looping them in re incarnation, however, does AKal Purkh not have control over everything. He is the creator of Kal and hence knows and controls Kal itself..."Keeri tul na hovni je tis manoo na veesrai"..then how can any thing at all be out of Maharaj's hukam. I think you agree with me on this.

We just cant have the answers by merely reading some writings. True Love has to be formed with the Lord, like the Sants, Brahmgyanis. All the answers are found then, not before. The truth is revealed. He Himself is revealed by HIS own will. Whenever he chooses for that to happen. Its all Maharaj's Kirpa. He knows what each of his created soul deserves. Which is why we have our Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide us.

Also in the bani it says, Dharam rai/raj also sits at your door and sings your praises.

I have 100 other points that I can bring up from the bani which would not relate to whats written in AS. But I just dont want to get into that, we would be fools arguing, who actually no nothing at all.

I think AS would confuse an average sikh even more, we have all that we need to know in SGGS ji itself, then why look outside.

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ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਤਸੰਿਗ ਿਮਲਾਏ ॥

karam hovai satsang milaa-ay.

Through the karma of good actions, one joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

ਸਹਜੇ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਪਿਰਓ ਕਰਮਾ ॥

sehjay jaa ka-o pari-o karmaa.

With intuitive ease, they meet the Lord, according to their karma.

ਧੁਿਰ ਕਰਮੁ ਿਜਨਾ ਕਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਿਤਨੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਿਧਆਇਆ ॥

Dhur karam jinaa ka-o tuDh paa-i-aa taa tinee khasam Dhi-aa-i-aa.

Only those whose karma You have pre-ordained from the very beginning, O Lord,

meditate on You.

ਦਾਸ ਰੇਣੁ ਸੋਈ ਹੋਆ ਿਜਸੁ ਮਸਤਿਕ ਕਰਮਾ ॥

daas rayn so-ee ho-aa jis mastak karmaa.

He alone becomes the dust of the Lord's slaves, who has such good karma upon his

forehead.

ਪਇਐ ਿਕਰਿਤ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਿਜਵ ਰਾਖਿਹ ਿਤਵੈ ਰਹੰਿਨ? ॥੧॥

pa-i-ai kirat kamaavday jiv raakhahi tivai rahaNniH. ||1||

They act according to the karma of the actions they committed before; as the Lord

keeps them, so do they live. ||1||

ਨਾਨਕ ਿਕਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਿਮਟਾਇਓ ॥੨॥

naanak kirat na jaa-ay mitaa-i-o. ||2||

O Nanak, the the karma of past actions cannot be erased. ||2||

-all Tuks from various angs of SGGS

wjkk wjkf,

Dear Siblings,

PLease do assist me in understanding Karma.

What we are today is because of Karma. Say, if i am a Prime Minister or a wood cutter or a soldier is because of our karma. But how far does karma go in dictating our lives? Does every moment of what we do is because of karma?

And, when we do bad things, like scold someone or talk in ego..is it due to karma? Because of we do bad things, then our karma gets even worse, right?

We are in satsang, because of our karma, right? So, if a person who's karma has no satsang, and no mediation on God, is bound to go thru the cycle of rebirth, right? So, based on his karma, he is bound for that? Can anything be done to change this?

The last tuk says that the karma of past actions cannot be erased. Say if i was to meet an accident tomorrow (example) and this is due to my past karmas, how can i change it? If i pray and pray, will this karma change? Guru Nanak says it will not.

Please do explain and enlighten me.

Thank you....

regards

Veer Ji what is the purpose of understanding or contemplating deeply about Karma . We know it is through good karma we meet Guru Ji , and we know our actions have consequences this is all we need to know about Karma. We should not be fouced on our indivduals karams, Guru Ji has already taken this burden from us. Since we have met Guru our main goal should be not to realize the nature of past or future actions we should try to realize who we truly are through a deep and rigirous study/contemplation and following of GurShabd/God. Guru Sahib does not lay great emphasis on Karam, nor should we. Guru Ji streeses emphasis on Kirpa through Naam I thinks it would be wise that we should be focusing our attention on these aspects.

Awpy gurmuiK kir bIcwru ]4]

aapae guramukh kar beechaar ||4||

As Gurmukh, He contemplates Himself. ||4||

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Actually Valli Singh I hold a view, which explains why there is no free will. As we all kno we are all molecules.....chemicals.....our emotions, judgement, decision making skills are a complex interactions of these chemicals, memories, clues and past experiences.

Therefore we are living nothing more than an interaction of these substances. When we die we are broken down...our molecules become something else...its like energy being changed from one form to another.....therefore yes, I believe in re-incarnation......

But God is described as infinate source of energy which can only be accessed through the human life. Therefore there must be something special about humans....

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wjkk wjkf,

I belive everything is written, whether or not we will find a true guru, join the sadh sangat etc.

Purab likh likhia, mil sadhoo kanda khanda hai"

-kirtan sohila

wjkk wjkf,

I belive everything is written, whether or not we will find a true guru, join the sadh sangat etc.

Purab likh likhia, mil sadhoo kanda khanda hai"

-kirtan sohila

From the essence of discussion, we are destined, say, to be in the sadh sangat maybe 10 times, but because we act in devotion and humility, these karma increase to make it say 100 times to the sadh sangat. And from that, 10000 times. So on.

In japji, in the salok, it is said

Karmi apo apni, key narai kay door

wjkk wjkf,

I belive everything is written, whether or not we will find a true guru, join the sadh sangat etc.

Purab likh likhia, mil sadhoo kanda khanda hai"

-kirtan sohila

From the essence of discussion, we are destined, say, to be in the sadh sangat maybe 10 times, but because we act in devotion and humility, these karma increase to make it say 100 times to the sadh sangat. And from that, 10000 times. So on.

In japji, in the salok, it is said

Karmi apo apni, key narai kay door

Based on their actions, some come closer to Him and some further

So, end of the day, it is our past karma, making more karma.

:)

wjkk wjkf

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wjkk wjkf,

I belive everything is written, whether or not we will find a true guru, join the sadh sangat etc.

Purab likh likhia, mil sadhoo kanda khanda hai"

-kirtan sohila

From the essence of discussion, we are destined, say, to be in the sadh sangat maybe 10 times, but because we act in devotion and humility, these karma increase to make it say 100 times to the sadh sangat. And from that, 10000 times. So on.

In japji, in the salok, it is said

Karmi apo apni, key narai kay door

Based on their actions, some come closer to Him and some further

So, end of the day, it is our past karma, making more karma.

:)

wjkk wjkf

i wish to reffer you to my previous post in this topic where i stated that, we are not destined to go to heaven or hell, it is earned. hence the propersition of kamai in sikhi. through the actions of people in their past lives etc, karam is made. everyone knows this. but what a common misconception of karam is, is that people take karam to mean that they are destined to end up somwhere, i.e. they think that there is no choice.

we are only destined to be put in a situation as a direct result of our karam, and then, from there we have a choice of whether to act on that, or to not. either acting or not acting may be good or bad.

furthermore, it is written for a sikh to meet with sangat/ guru, but through the actions of our own choice, we either move toward the truth or away from it. so it is written for us to meet with say...sangat.. but we choose to progress that way or not.

on the larger scale/ higher level of thought, god sets our very thoughts in our minds. i.e. god gives us the mind to make our decisions.

god does everything. even the nirankaries/naamdharis etc.. god has put them there. even the incidents regarding the gurdwaras being bombed. god does all of that himself. this does not mean that we just let things happen and sit back. this is on a much deeper level tho. we have the mind and the guidence from our guru to get through any situation we have been put in, regarding karam or whatever. karam can be riped/washed. guru also says this.

now for a few corrections... the lines from the sohela you have posted you have got 2 lines mixed up..

kwim kroiD ngru bhu BirAw imil swDU KMfl KMfw hy ]

kaam karodh nagar bahu bhariaa mil saadhoo khanddal khanddaa hae |

The body-village is filled to overflowing with sexual desire and anger, which were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.

pUrib ilKq ilKy guru pwieAw min hir ilv mMfl mMfw hy ]1]

poorab likhath likhae gur paaeiaa man har liv manddal manddaa hae |1|

By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

and the laikha bit means, > if god writes it, then its written (... and i meet with guru...)

so this is why we have the ardaas. we waste our time asking for passing our exams :p and such things like this, when the true ardaas is the shabad. >kar kirpa har naam devaayo< >mera gun avgun na veechaaro koi< and other like this. we do the adraas so god writes our sanjog (sanjog means good fortune/luck...... sanjogi means the one who has been given the good fortune {through ardaas and asking god-some people dont have to do ardaas and they just get the gur prasaad} )

god made the rules,so he can change/ write new one. we do the naam and bani and the ardaas, god will listen.

another correction,

changiaaya buriaaya vaache dharam hadoor

karmi aapo aapni ke nerai ke door..

this means

the good deeds and baad deeds vuj in the vacinity of dharam raaj

(and if people haave done veechaar of paap and pun/ dukh and sukh i.e. getting lost in duality..then..)

their karam is their own, no matter how far away or close that particular karam is to somone.

the translation that is on sikhi to max etc is very very very distorted.

guru sahib says that paap pun doe ek samaan. good and bad is all the same.

...dukh sukh baho bhorgan hai; giyaanang, sumh dukh sukhang, jugat nirmal nirvairanha. in seheskriti salok.

the focal point of this tuk is that we are not supposed to do veechaar of dukh and sukh. when we are under the shelter of god, nothing touches us, hence the metephore of 'shelter' given in gurbani.

raam naam subh jag ka taarak!

dhan

gurfateh

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All with their own views....and we are sure of nothing.

Bottomline: Every question would be best answered by a Sant, Brahmgyaani, Saadhu.

Rest all are unsure predicaments.

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All with their own views....and we are sure of nothing.

Bottomline: Every question would be best answered by a Sant, Brahmgyaani, Saadhu.

Rest all are unsure predicaments.

i totally agree....

hum moorakh, tum chatar siaaanae. andhle giaan heen agyaani. moorakh mugdha janam bhayaa.

khu nwnk dieAwl suAwmI, sMqu, Bgqu, jnu, soeI ]2]5]36]

dhan guru dhan guru.

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The only unsettling idea is that Kama is unfair....which means that the idea justice is not fair..

If someone could say why human life form is considered special....

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