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Please Assist With Dasam Granth Query..


singh987
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Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh.

I'm new to this entire issue, I'm researching/reading around to gain information, I took amrit at a very young age so lack knowledge in many areas.

I'll try best to explain my understanding quickly. I've had a few discussions with the youth, elderly, listened to katha and have been watching quite a lot of youtube matter related to this topic.

I am an amrit-dhaari gursikh and wish to query some things about the compilation of the dasam granth. Please understand that I mean no disrespect or offence to anyone, I understand this is a sensitive topic but it must and should be discussed. Guys, for me, as it stands -> I'm well confused. I come here with no bias pro/against dasam granth and I will say as a gursikh, I can never ever doubt any baani written by dhan dhan dasam pita. May my breath be taken away in an instant if such thoughts were to even come close to my mind.

My question is about the compilation of the current pothi/saroop of dasam granth. As far as I can gather, the present dasam granth saroop was not compiled by dhan dhan guru gobind singh sahib ji, but, at nanded sahib after massa ranghar's head was bought back? prior to this dasam granth was a collection of pothi's? (Please shed more light on this..)

Can some learned singh/singhaniya please clarify if the current saroop of dasam granth was compiled as per dasam pita's original compilation which was lost during the vichorra? (is this even true?)

Some "anti" party people have said that - dasam granth has been colluded with writings from hindu pothi's. How much truth is there in this? In the anti video's I came across, the guy leading the nindeya says 2/3rds of the saroop is of hindu writings - he references this with hindu books.

I'm perfectly fine with guru sahib using saakhi's to aid explanation, however I wanted clarification because I believe people who are in my position are just getting biased views - either completely against dasam granth or giving it complete guru ship as was the case in a few videos I watched. Some anti party people mentioned that it was hindu run printing presses which colluded our baani with their own matter to attack sikhi..

As I mentioned before, I have no questions about dasam pita's writings. He is the supreme commander of the khalsa panth and I am a low-life paapi, however, this paapi mind starts thinking when it hears things which often mislead it. I just want some clarification. Again sangat ji, bhul chuk maaf karni, I am in no position to question baani.. I feel awkward just asking these questions, but I don't want to suppress them in my mind.

Obviously any baani uttered by dasam pita is a gold mine for us paapi's, but do writings like the zafarnama hold spiritual relevance? (I don't know much about it but I thought this was a letter addressed to a moghul emperor who went back on his word?) Finally one thing eating at me is, Akalpurakh and/or guru would never leave the khalsa in any distress.. why has this issue gone un-solved for once and for all for ~300 years?! why is the common sikh - not highly spiritual like me just getting to hear about this - why is this an issue at all?!

It's nearly 3 am! Please post your thoughts and correct me if I have gather incorrect information.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

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WAHEGURUJIKAKHALSAWAHEGURUJIKEFATEH.

There are many websites dedicated to Sri Dassam Granth. The following may be of some useful guidance.

www.patshahi10.org

Please also note that in order to get a fuller picture of the role of SDG in Gursikhi it is appropriate to listen to the complete katha of SGGS by prominent Gursikhs such as Gyani Takhur Singh Patiala and Gyani Avtar Singh Badni. This can be found on several sites but in particular:

www.gurbaniupdesh.org

WAHEGURUJIKAKHALSAWAHEGURUJIKEFATEH.

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987, welcome to Sikhsangat

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh.

My question is about the compilation of the current pothi/saroop of dasam granth. As far as I can gather, the present dasam granth saroop was not compiled by dhan dhan guru gobind singh sahib ji, but, at nanded sahib after massa ranghar's head was bought back? prior to this dasam granth was a collection of pothi's? (Please shed more light on this..)

No, the Mass Ranghar episode was actually the reverse. It was in one collection, and the question was, should it be split up into a couple of pothis? It is said the victorious killers of Massa Ranghar said no, so that's what was decided.

As for old recensions of Dasam Granth, why don't you read this thread, and then come back here if you have more questions. The thread below has a link to a picture of a recension which is said to have been compiled at Anandpur:

Most Puratan Birs Of Dasam Granth

Can some learned singh/singhaniya please clarify if the current saroop of dasam granth was compiled as per dasam pita's original compilation which was lost during the vichorra? (is this even true?)

The current, standard printing of Dasam Granth is compiled as per the Sodhak Committee (which met for a long time during the end of the 19th century at the Akal Takhat), and they edited a standard version of Dasam Granth for printing purposes.

They based this based on various hand-written recensions (see above). You can read the report on the Internet. I'll post the link if I find it.

Some "anti" party people have said that - dasam granth has been colluded with writings from hindu pothi's. How much truth is there in this? In the anti video's I came across, the guy leading the nindeya says 2/3rds of the saroop is of hindu writings - he references this with hindu books.

Very much truth, yet they miss the entire point. OK let's call 2/3 the same as in the Hindu granths. It's the 1/3 that's important.

The 2/3 merely describes the Avatars.

It's in the 1/3 that:

  • Guru Gobind Singh ji clarifies that the Avatars are not God
  • The Avatars only had limited power as compared to God
  • People should view weapons as the devi, and Guruji encourages people to take up arms instead of being cowards and waiting for a devi
  • Shows the real status of the Avatars as being subject to Lust and Anger, etc., so how could they be God?
  • Add additional material which is not found in the Hindu granths, and in which we could discern some meaning if we put our minds to it.

For example, in Krishnavtar, Krishan is not portrayed as the hero, rather a character named Kharag Singh is. Yet, as powerful as he is, he is later destroyed by Lust. The message for us seems obvious.

Also, in Krishnavtar, there are a lot of Muslim names, which is anachronistic since there were no Muslims in India then. Some interpret this as related to the help that the hill rajas and the Rajputs gave to the Muslims.

Finally, in Krishanavtar, both sides of the battle have "Sikh"-type names ("Singh"). Some interpret this as predicting the fact of Sikhs constantly fight among themselves.

There was a book published a while back with some advanced deep meanings of Dasam Granth. If I find it, I'll post info.

There's no question our scholars and gianis need to delve deeper into Dasam Granth for producing better, more detailed, and more symbolic commentaries.

I'm perfectly fine with guru sahib using saakhi's to aid explanation, however I wanted clarification because I believe people who are in my position are just getting biased views - either completely against dasam granth or giving it complete guru ship as was the case in a few videos I watched. Some anti party people mentioned that it was hindu run printing presses which colluded our baani with their own matter to attack sikhi..

It's not really an issue of printing presses because Dasam Granth is present in hand-written form. I will grant that Hindus running a printing press (of which there were plenty in Lahore) will not pay as much attention to spellings as learned Sikhs will. Hence, they could easily look over misspellings which can change the meanings.

The rehitnamas written by various Singhs show that:

Guru Gobind Singh Ji was asked by the Singhs to put Dasam bani into Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but Guru Ji refused, saying Guru Granth Sahib was in the higher position, but Dasam Bani was merely "my leela" (my play). And that the Dasam Granth is the "chota" (smaller) granth. But Sikhs are asked to memorise bani from both granths.

As I mentioned before, I have no questions about dasam pita's writings. He is the supreme commander of the khalsa panth and I am a low-life paapi, however, this paapi mind starts thinking when it hears things which often mislead it. I just want some clarification. Again sangat ji, bhul chuk maaf karni, I am in no position to question baani.. I feel awkward just asking these questions, but I don't want to suppress them in my mind.

No problem. In general don't start reading Dasam Granth until you've read Guru Granth Sahib Ji a few times. If you don't know the meaning of something, just put it aside until you're able to know.

Obviously any baani uttered by dasam pita is a gold mine for us paapi's, but do writings like the zafarnama hold spiritual relevance?

Yes.

The first part of Zafarnama is purely spiritual. It just talks about God and his greatness. This is basically like Jaap Sahib or Akal Ustat or portions of Sukhmani Sahib.

Secondly, Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji hold that true spirituality means that you actually take action in the world against the bad and for the good and the poor. So, in that sense, it is spiritual because it is encouraging us to not flinch in the face of tyranny, which is basically a test for whether we have moh (attachment) for this mortal body and fear dying. A truly spiritual person does not fear dying and does not fear speaking truth to the powerful.

But you're right that Dasam Granth is not a granth with a uniform kind of writing. Rather, there are many different kinds of writings with different purposes. Not recognising this fact is the cause of many of the Dasm Granth opponents' confusion. Of course, the recension referred to above does not contain Zafarnama since it was written after leaving Anandpur.

The fact that Dasam Granth also contains some diverse writings (including the mundane) might be why Guru Sahib did not give GurGaddi to Dasam Granth. This does not reduce its authenticity, however.

Finally one thing eating at me is, Akalpurakh and/or guru would never leave the khalsa in any distress.. why has this issue gone un-solved for once and for all for ~300 years?! why is the common sikh - not highly spiritual like me just getting to hear about this - why is this an issue at all?!

Well about why we're in distress: I guess you can basically trace it back to not following Guru's hukum, in one way or another, at one time or another. Some trace it to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, some trace it earlier than that. We can't have Guru's grace if we don't follow hukum. But that's a long topic.

The issue has not gone unsolved for 300 years. It was first raised by Macauliff, who didn't have full knowledge, and then spread to a few English-associated Sikhs, who have been preaching it ever since.

The reason the common Sikh is just hearing about this is that the common Sikh has no knowledge whatsoever about his religion. Forget Dasam Granth, he doesn't have a clue what is in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This, in a sense, is also related to the fall of the Sikh Raj and our general decline.

Therefore, some troublemakers have found that it's easy to stir up trouble by talking about matters that most Sikhs have no knowledge of. Then some other Sikhs (well meaning), take the anti-Dasam Granth preaching to heart and start thinking that the zenith of Sikhi is just spewing bile against it.

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actually there is a written account stating that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was complete in the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. A hindu came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's darbar and saw a prakash of the Shastar, and someone doing the chaur seva of the shastar. the hindu asked Guru Ji why show this much respect to the shastar when you are above everything in the world. Guru Ji laughed and said "o hindu, u dont understand anything. read Dasam Granth and you will understand the satkaar of the shastar". but at sirsa nadi, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was lost, and had to be recompiled.

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Only following compositions of Dasam Granth have base from Hindu puranas

1)Chandi charitra

2) Chaubis avtar

Though the base stories are from Hindu texts yet they have been adapted to sikh philosophy as bhforce has explained.There are large sections that have been altered and new chapters added.

What that gurnindak is saying is 100 percent lie.He is indulging in propaganda.He is a truck driver by profession and he knows hardly anything about such a complex writing.

Yes, Dasam granth sahib was compiled during Guru sahib's time.That beer was called anandpuri beer.This video explains that.

http://video.google....39760281135172#

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actually there is a written account stating that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was complete in the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. A hindu came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's darbar and saw a prakash of the Shastar, and someone doing the chaur seva of the shastar. the hindu asked Guru Ji why show this much respect to the shastar when you are above everything in the world. Guru Ji laughed and said "o hindu, u dont understand anything. read Dasam Granth and you will understand the satkaar of the shastar". but at sirsa nadi, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was lost, and had to be recompiled.

Is this from Suraj Prakash, if so, what chapter and rut, etc.? Thanks.

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actually there is a written account stating that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was complete in the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. A hindu came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's darbar and saw a prakash of the Shastar, and someone doing the chaur seva of the shastar. the hindu asked Guru Ji why show this much respect to the shastar when you are above everything in the world. Guru Ji laughed and said "o hindu, u dont understand anything. read Dasam Granth and you will understand the satkaar of the shastar". but at sirsa nadi, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was lost, and had to be recompiled.

Is this from Suraj Prakash, if so, what chapter and rut, etc.? Thanks.

Dasam Granth is replete with reverence towards shashtars.

It was anandpuri beer that as looted when Anadpur sahib came under moghals. It was later sold by a

pathan to a sikh and is still held by a sikh family.

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Gurfateh,

Excellent discussion so far guys, great contributions.. special thanks to BhForce bhaaji, loved your post. :)

The current, standard printing of Dasam Granth is compiled as per the Sodhak Committee (which met for a long time during the end of the 19th century at the Akal Takhat), and they edited a standard version of Dasam Granth for printing purposes.

Ah, I didn't know this.. thanks for posting the puratan saroop info too.. helps a lot. A question, why was zafarnama added, we could have had the same compilation as dasam pita had created?

Some "anti" party people have said that - dasam granth has been colluded with writings from hindu pothi's. How much truth is there in this? In the anti video's I came across, the guy leading the nindeya says 2/3rds of the saroop is of hindu writings - he references this with hindu books.

Very much truth, yet they miss the entire point. OK let's call 2/3 the same as in the Hindu granths. It's the 1/3 that's important. It's in the 1/3 that:

  • Guru Gobind Singh ji clarifies that the Avatars are not God
  • The Avatars only had limited power as compared to God
  • People should view weapons as the devi, and Guruji encourages people to take up arms instead of being cowards and waiting for a devi
  • Shows the real status of the Avatars as being subject to Lust and Anger, etc., so how could they be God?
  • Add additional material which is not found in the Hindu granths, and in which we could discern some meaning if we put our minds to it.

Yes! this is exactly what my thoughts were. even if one baani was written by dasam pita, surely its a great boon for us sikhs!

It's not really an issue of printing presses because Dasam Granth is present in hand-written form. I will grant that Hindus running a printing press (of which there were plenty in Lahore) will not pay as much attention to spellings as learned Sikhs will. Hence, they could easily look over misspellings which can change the meanings.

if there wasn't much collusion why was there a sodak committee (for knowledge's sake)

No problem. In general don't start reading Dasam Granth until you've read Guru Granth Sahib Ji a few times.

Bhai sahib, is this because of the sant/sipahi concept? with guru granth sahib providing sant sikhiya and dasam granth providing sipahi sikhiya? Or is this just your personal opinion.. Please clarify

For now, I have much to read/watch.. Thanks you very much for your kind assistance.

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Yes! this is exactly what my thoughts were. even if one baani was written by dasam pita, surely its a great boon for us sikhs!

All banis, repeat all banis, have input from Dasam Pita.What made you to say even if one bani? You need to do a lot of home work before asking such questions as you will not be able learn everything from internet forums.

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