If God Is Present In Stone Idol Also , Then Whats Wrong With Worshipping It ?

[Trying to be Khalsa 0]

I don't wish to offend anyone . We know gurus were against idol worship , but gurus never rejected that waheguru is present throughout in sargun roop . It is present in stones as well . If waheguru is present throughout the creation , then why worshipping of a stone is wrong ?

bhul chuk maaf . . This is just an innocent question .

[sarntuhari 0]

There is nothing wrong in worshipping a stone but if the person turns into a stone and cannot do normal things like eat, then there is no salvation. To be Gurmukh you must eat from Naam and share the same.

[ms514 425]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Because Sikhism teaches to worship the Creator, not the creation. The issue has been that in Pagan faiths (i.e. Hinduism() that the creation is worshipped and the treue One Creator is forgotten. Hence, Sikhism emphasizes that rememberance of the Creator is most important.

[Pheena 1]

I don't wish to offend anyone . We know gurus were against idol worship , but gurus never rejected that waheguru is present throughout in sargun roop . It is present in stones as well . If waheguru is present throughout the creation , then why worshipping of a stone is wrong ?

bhul chuk maaf . . This is just an innocent question .

There is absolutely nothing wrong with worshiping a Stone barring few important details. One, You are under the guidance of a Living Master. Two, you are approach your practice with this thought, that if God is within that Moorti, that Stone, then God must also be within me and all those around me.

Meera of Rajisthan, Bhagat Dhanna Jatt, the Guru of Bhagat Kabir ji were all Moorti Poojak. It is not the Practice that makes the difference, it is the correct guidance from a Master and your Devotion towards your practice that bring forth transformation in your Bhagti.

It is common to get stuck at the first step of this practice as veer ms514 mentioned above me, to forget the bigger picture and speak as if this 'Stone alone is God'. When a Saadhik should move forward to the next step and say, 'this Stone is also God, just as God is within us all'. There are dangers on every path of bhagti, to become aware of them and to be under the compassionate gaze of ones Master is of great importance when walking towards Liberation.

[Drogba 0]

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Idol_Worship

[Bijla Singh 328]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with worshiping a Stone barring few important details. One, You are under the guidance of a Living Master. Two, you are approach your practice with this thought, that if God is within that Moorti, that Stone, then God must also be within me and all those around me.

Gurmat ideals speak strictly against idol worship or any type of sargun worship for that matter. When one truly realizes that God is everywhere he does not remain stuck in idol worship. He remains in highest spiritual state where he forever enjoys anhad shabad. There is no doubt that a human being is much better jooni than stone then shouldn't one start worshipping himself keeping the details you mentioned above in mind? A stone has no divine qualities or knowledge then what can it give to a human being to reach higher spiritual states.

Meera of Rajisthan, Bhagat Dhanna Jatt, the Guru of Bhagat Kabir ji were all Moorti Poojak.

It is a false statement. Bani of Bhagats clearly speaks against idol worship, Vaisnavism, brahmanism, caste system etc. These bhagats speak against authority of Vedas and Upnishds, the same granths which advocate idol worship. Bhagats could not have contradicted themselves. Initially, they started off with Krishan bhagtee, them moved to raam bhagtee when Ramanand left his own guru and finally they came in the fold of Sikhi. Their own bani explains all of this in details. Guru Sahib never practiced idol worship and also wrote against it in bani. Therefore, he could not have accepted bani of those who did not agree with him in practice and philosophy.

Gurbani is clear that one should not focus on creation but creator.

ਚਚਾ ਰਚਿਤ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ (੩੪0)

(ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ) ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਇਹ ਜਗਤ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਇਕ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੀ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਹੈ । (ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਇਸ ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦੇ ਮੋਹ) ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖ; (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵੱਡਾ) ਝੰਬੇਲਾ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਸਵੀਰ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਮੋਹ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ । (ਸੋ, ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਣ ਲਈ) ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦਾ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ) ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੋ ਰੱਖ ।12।

[N30S1NGH 3,140]

Op and readers, may want to read this topic in depth and decide it for themselves: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=11526

[Balbir Singh 13]

Pray Truth for ball and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Bijla Singh Jee!

Please do not spread anti Gurmat.

You wrote "It is a false statement. Bani of Bhagats clearly speaks against idol worship, . . ."

The word Moorati occurs many times in Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee. Not once reverend Gurus have criticized Moorati rather, they have praised it and suggested worshiping it.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.

ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥੫॥੧੧॥੧੩੨॥

सेवा पूज करउ तिसु मूरति की नानकु तिसु पग चाटै ॥५॥११॥१३२॥

Sevaa pooj karao tis moorati kee naanak tisu pag chaaTai. SGGS Ang 208

*****

True Gurus never said that God is not in stones. Therefore, do not teach to hate stones.

Balbir Singh

[apnepart2 3]

Dont mind but can i worship my car? it gets me around and being saroop of vahiguroo protects me from rain wind etc. and errrr can my car mechanic be my guide? (with respect to my car) hmm...

[Mehtab Singh 3,907]

with all due respect to brother Pheena

There is absolutely nothing wrong with worshiping a Stone barring few important details.

There is no contradiction in Gurbani. Repeatedly we come across the futility of idol worship. Maybe idol worship is fine with other faiths but not Sikhi.

One, You are under the guidance of a Living Master. Two, you are approach your practice with this thought, that if God is within that Moorti, that Stone, then God must also be within me and all those around me.

The only living master for a Sikh is Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and our living master never advocated idol worship. Gurbani does say "sabh gobind hai", however urges the seeker only to worship Vaheguru and not the creation. There is an ocean of difference between "seeing" and "worshipping". I can respect my best friend's parents the same way I respect my own, but that doesn't mean I would start calling them mom and dad.

It is not the Practice that makes the difference, it is the correct guidance from a Master and your Devotion towards your practice that bring forth transformation in your Bhagti.

The practice does make a big difference my friend. That is the reason why the Khalsa Panth is totally distinct and unique from other faiths. Our practices are what distinguish us. Aa far as correct guidance from a master is concerned, our master Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj clearly lays out what we need to practice not just on a daily basis, but each breath.

vadh ghatt bolleya khima karna

bhul chuk maaf karni veerji

[sunny_love_kirtan 191]

why wud u worship a stone when u have jagat jyot partakh parbraham SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

anybody who believe it should not require or provide any further answers or explanations.

hopefully no one will discuss abt it anymore why we shud or why we shudnt

[Bijla Singh 328]

Balbir Singh, you are the one spreading anti-Gurmat here. Taking one line out of the entire Shabad and twisting its meanings to suit your own manmat is not an act of a Sikh. Gurbani is replete with Shabads which speak against idol worship. I never wrote that God is not in idols but its worship is not Gurmat. Human being is much better than a stone since human jooni is the highest then why shouldn’t one worship a human body over an idol? Hating an idol and rejecting its worship are two different things and i thought you were old enough to know the difference. Here is the entire Shabad and tell me where does it advocate to worship idols or where does the word “moorat” in Gurbani refer to idols?

ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਆਇਓ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ॥

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਓ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਇਸੁ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਾ ॥

ਦੀਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਕਾਨੀ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਾ ॥1॥

ਪੰਚ ਚੇਲੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਏ ਇਕਤ੍ਰਾ ਏਕਸੁ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਏ ॥

ਦਸ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ਤਬ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਗੀ ਥੀਏ ॥2॥

ਭਰਮੁ ਜਰਾਇ ਚਰਾਈ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਏਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਪੇਖਿਆ ॥

ਸਹਜ ਸੂਖ ਸੋ ਕੀਨੀ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਜੋ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖਿਆ ॥3॥

ਜਹ ਭਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਹਾ ਆਸਨੁ ਬਾਧਿਓ ਸਿੰਗੀ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਡੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਨੀ ॥4॥

ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਭੇਟੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥

ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥5॥11॥132॥

The Shabad describes true yoga of Gurmat and all of the yogic words are redefined. Pay attention to the Rahao pankti which clearly says that Satguru through Shabad showed the true way to yoga in which Guru’s wisdom, following hukam, seeing God everywhere, singing bani and doing vichaar of baani is the essence. Such a person is true devotee of God and Guru Sahib says that he forever remains humble in his service. Moorat refers to true character or an ideal character of a true devotional bhagat. Words ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ literally mean licking feet which is a metaphor for being humble and having nimarta. If the word moorat referred to an idol then you are insinuating that Guru Sahib advocates going to hindu temples and licking feet of idols. Your understanding of bani is either very poor or you are intentionally trying to confuse the Sikhs who are less acquainted with Bani.

[sunny_love_kirtan 191]

however i posted that no one shud require or provide anything

it was a different thing and very important to answer balbir singh and bijla singh did it well. if moorat word comes in any shabad that doesnt mean that it is moorti pooja.

and here bhagat kabeer ji clearly denying moorti or stone pooja

ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ੯ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੫

aasaa sree kabeer jeeo kae panchapadhae 9 dhuthukae 5

Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padas, 5 Du-Tukas:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||

That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥

bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||

In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||

The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਡਾਰੀ ਫੂਲ ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ ॥

breham paathee bisan ddaaree fool sankaradhaeo ||

Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.

ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥੨॥

theen dhaev prathakh thorehi karehi kis kee saeo ||2||

When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||

ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥

paakhaan gadt kai moorath keenhee dhae kai shhaathee paao ||

The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.

ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥

jae eaeh moorath saachee hai tho garrhanehaarae khaao ||3||

If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||

ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ ॥

bhaath pehith ar laapasee karakaraa kaasaar ||

Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies

ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

bhoganehaarae bhogiaa eis moorath kae mukh shhaar ||4||

- the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||

ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

maalin bhoolee jag bhulaanaa ham bhulaanae naahi ||

The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥

kahu kabeer ham raam raakhae kirapaa kar har raae ||5||1||14||

Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||

[Balbir Singh 13]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Bijla Singh Jee!

I hope you keep the discussion live and stick to the topic.

You wrote "Taking one line out of the entire Shabad and twisting its meanings to suit your own manmat is not an act of a Sikh."

Is reading the entire Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee again and again is not manmat? Please provide one reference from the true Gurus where they have suggested so. I will be grateful.

My Gurdev suggests receiving so much through ONE Word but you are feeling uneasy with one Vaak from the Guru. Why?

Please listen. Guru Naanak Dev Jee is singing.

ਚੰਚਲ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਭਉ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ॥

चंचल मति तिआगि भउ भंजनु पाइआ एक सबदि लिव लागी ॥

Chanchal mati tiyagi bhao bhanjanu paaiaa aik sabadi liv laagee. SGGS Ang 1232

Why you and your preachers suggest jumping from one Vaak to another restlessly? Is this that gives you need of thousands of Akhand Paaths?

Quote "Hating an idol and rejecting its worship are two different things . . ."

And you are the master of manipulating the mind when not to hate the idol but always rejecting its worship.

Quote "Human being is much better than a stone since human jooni is the highest . . ."

My Gurdev says all is Godly. Nothing is higher or lower.

Please provide a reference from your Guru and oblige.

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.

ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਆਇਓ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ॥

जोग जुगति सुनि आइओ गुर ते ॥

Jog jugati suni aaio gur te.

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

मो कउ सतिगुर सबदि बुझाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Mo ko satigur sabadi bujhaaio. ||1|| rahaao || SGGS Ang 208

Gurdev is thankful getting, resolved the Gur of one Sabad.

May I ask why preachers suggest to read whole Granth repeatedly to resolve the Gur of one Sabad?

*****

Sunny_love_kirtan Jee,

Thanks for referring the Stanza from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee.

Paahan means stone and not the stone idol as per your referred translation.

May I ask why so many flowers and petals are plucked and offered in Gurdwaaraas?

*****

This is the same Jogee Gurdev is singing about as referred by Bijla Singh Jee.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.

ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਭੇਟੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥

ऐसा जोगी वडभागी भेटै माइआ के बंधन काटै ॥

Aisaa jogee vadbhaagee bhetai maaiaa ke bandhan kaaTai.

ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥੫॥੧੧॥੧੩੨॥

सेवा पूज करउ तिसु मूरति की नानकु तिसु पग चाटै ॥५॥११॥१३२॥

Sevaa pooj karao tis moorati kee naanak tisu pag chaaTai. SGGS Ang 208

Only ignorant can misinterpret the reverend Guru's Vaak or misunderstand it?

Balbir Singh

[sunny_love_kirtan 191]

*****

Sunny_love_kirtan Jee,

Thanks for referring the Stanza from Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee.

Paahan means stone and not the stone idol as per your referred translation.

May I ask why so many flowers and petals are plucked and offered in Gurdwaaraas?

*****

wow this is so ridiculous. you can clearly tell that in what context bhagat ji is talking about stone. worshiping stone IS stone idolizing.

u have not provided any thing which support ur views even 1 %

u asked why we offer flowers in Gurdwaras?

as i mentioned earlier and bhagat kabeer ji supporting it

AND I GUESS YOU NEED TO READ THE SHABAD AND ITS MEANING CAREFULLY BEFORE GETTING TOO EXCITED AND JUMPING AND POSTING

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||

That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥

bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||

In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||

The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

for your i have highlighted few words

1. You said pahan means stone not stone idol, if you read translation it is translated as Stone Idol

2. we offer flowers in gurdwara because Satgur Jaagta Hai Deo

offering flowers to imaginary pictures of guru sahib is manmat so as stone or statues.

when you read the word moorat in gurbani, it reffers to word moorat in MOOL MANTAR and not the moorti or a statue or an imaginary image.

i am so papi that i im replying to this post after saying that no one shud do it. But we cannot ignore ur ignorance.