Beadbi At Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Graham Street, Birmingham

[VanHelsingh 1,983]

I'm shocked that such issues even need debating. As our American friends say "Its a no brainer".

[Into the Light 149]

I didn't get to watch the program - what was Dr Bhogal's justification for allowing meat and Sharaab on Gurdwara property and why they're going against Sri Akhaal Takhats hukamnama/Sandesh?

[TavPrasad Singh 60]

I didn't get to watch the program - what was Dr Bhogal's justification for allowing meat and Sharaab on Gurdwara property and why they're going against Sri Akhaal Takhats hukamnama/Sandesh?

Has was just creating smoke screens and claiming victimisation. At the end of the programme he said that the biggest killer disease within Sikhs is liver sclerosis! Very confused person....

He really has shown how panthic he really is.

[Bir_Ras 4]

What I find surprising is just how it is possibly victimisation. Look at the facts.

The first gurdwara to be requested to shut the hall and did so was Edinburgh's one - traditionally called "Bhatra". Grays was the same again. So if those two were "bhatra" (i hate these labels we use) then how can it possibly be an attack on these "Ramgarhia's" - perhaps someone could ask this on panth time! it is very confusing.

Second, and more important point is the fact that the Gurdwaray that have these halls come up with "financial reasons" for not closing the hall...hmmm... now, if we take a look at the accounts of RST, which I've attached to this post, you'll see certain key pieces of info i'd like to highlight.

1. OBJECTIVES - page 4

The charity's objects are to provide a centre where the community can gather for worship, celebrate various festivals according to the Sikh culture and provide facilities for weddings, teaching Panjabi and music. There have been no changes in the charities objects or policies during the year.

- Now, the terminology seems to be vague, perhaps purposefully so, but it does not hide the fact that it intends to celebrate according to the Sikh culture. Linked to this is the mention of facilities for weddings. Now if they've used the term "Sikh culture", NOT, "punjabi culture", this implies they need to abide by basic Sikh Rehat.

Its not really that complicated - that is in their own words!

2. FUNDRAISING - page 4

Here is perhaps the main point of the beadbi gurdwarays arguments - that we need the money. Lets take a look at RST's own words,

"The main fund raising activities remain the voluntary donations from members, the donations from religious functions and gatherings.

During the year money raised from the congregation was pu- towards purchasing equipment for use in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham."

The main fund raising is NOT from the hall, but from sangat donations - Religious ones at that - not parties!!

The committee/trustees also felt they had enough left over to kindly donate money to a worthy cause. Those struggling financially unfortunately dont have the means to do that...

3. FINANCIAL STATEMENT

income from rental of hall - £39 000 (approx)

income from sangat - £135 000 (approx) - thats almost £100k more from using the gurdwara as a religious place!

temple and building (ie hall) running costs - £59 000. No mention of the actual breakdown of cost here -- but lets be generous and estimate a third of the cost is spent on the call - around £19 000 -£ 20 000.

so, basically, this - 'financial goldmine' that the gurdwaray cant do without - how much did it make, net during the year? A measly £19 000 for the gurdwara!

That's how much one's jeevan is worth these days then...£19 000.

RST's own facts and figures - not anything from me, Satkaar, R4G or anybody else - they are basically stringing themselves up with their own words.

RST Accounts.pdf

[SinghWarrior 102]

Yes - although caste should not be brought into it, Grays is a majority "Jatt" committee, and Edinburgh is a majority "Bhatra" committee! How can RST then claim victimisation?!?!?

Also, bottom line is that of the 15 or so Gurdwaras with party halls, 7/8 of them are Ramgarhia Gurdwaras. So, of course, they are proportionately going to get targeted more - BECAUSE they are the ones engaging more in Manmat. Stop the Manmat, and then you'll stop getting targeted by the Sangat. SIMPLE!!!

[VanHelsingh 1,983]

1. OBJECTIVES - page 4

The charity's objects are to provide a centre where the community can gather for worship, celebrate various festivals according to the Sikh culture and provide facilities for weddings, teaching Panjabi and music. There have been no changes in the charities objects or policies during the year.

- Now, the terminology seems to be vague, perhaps purposefully so, but it does not hide the fact that it intends to celebrate according to the Sikh culture. Linked to this is the mention of facilities for weddings. Now if they've used the term "Sikh culture", NOT, "punjabi culture", this implies they need to abide by basic Sikh Rehat.

Its not really that complicated - that is in their own words!

Ha! I think they've stitched themselves up on this one. You're right - it does say Sikh culture. I think the people who wrote these terms probably thought nobody was going to be able to differentiate between Sikh and Punjabi culture - or nobody cared. I mean is there such a thing as 'Sikh culture'? Shouldn't it be 'Sikh faith'?

[Pyara 288]

3. FINANCIAL STATEMENT

income from rental of hall - £39 000 (approx)

income from sangat - £135 000 (approx) - thats almost £100k more from using the gurdwara as a religious place!

temple and building (ie hall) running costs - £59 000. No mention of the actual breakdown of cost here -- but lets be generous and estimate a third of the cost is spent on the call - around £19 000 -£ 20 000.

so, basically, this - 'financial goldmine' that the gurdwaray cant do without - how much did it make, net during the year? A measly £19 000 for the gurdwara!

That's how much one's jeevan is worth these days then...£19 000.

RST's own facts and figures - not anything from me, Satkaar, R4G or anybody else - they are basically stringing themselves up with their own words.

£19,000 v The Beadbi of Sikh Maryada.

See, you can pay £19,000 off in one lifetime, but how many lifetimes will it take to pay off the 'beadbi of Sikh maryada'????.

[punjab5 18]

Ha! I think they've stitched themselves up on this one. You're right - it does say Sikh culture. I think the people who wrote these terms probably thought nobody was going to be able to differentiate between Sikh and Punjabi culture - or nobody cared. I mean is there such a thing as 'Sikh culture'? Shouldn't it be 'Sikh faith'?

This is the way to challenge these people, by using there own rules and guidlines they have created within their constitution. Remember evrything in the constitution has to align with Gurmat and Sikhi principles as they are registred as a Sikh place of worship.

Would encourage the Satkat Committee to also adopt this line as well as others.

[MentalSingh 15]

Refering back Bir_Ras ji's financial breakdown, the gurdwara receives a large amount of money from hiring out the car park on a daily basis to the people who work in near vicinity. With the gurdwara being located in the Birmingham City Centre this generates a large amount of money over 150k per year. They do not have any financial problems in this gurughar, if the sangat do not come they dont care cos the car park revenues easily cover the costs of running the gurdwara. Also all the buildings are freehold so overall it is in a very healthy financial position.

[VanHelsingh 1,983]

This is why we need to be vigilant and in some ways, smarter than these people who wish to pull these stunts. I don't 'smarter' mean in a devious or under-hand way, but in a conscientious and aware manner whereby any contradictions must be exposed and exploited. Those who fly loose and ready with the tenets of Sikhi should be made aware of their mistakes.

[Bir_Ras 4]

someone needs to be able to push this point at the Panth Time tomorrow evening at RST. Surely the Sikh channel wouldnt edit something like that out, would they!?

[Pyara 288]

Truth is high but higher still is truthful living.(5)

Dr Bhogal quoted the above English translation of Maharaj's tuk ਸਚਹੁ ਓਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥੫॥ and then used the tuk in an attempt to demolish the overall integrity/intentions of the members of UK Sangat who genuinely raised concerns about the serving of alcohol and meat in the RST Gurdwara properties (i.e the hall).

If Dr Bhogal and the rest of RST claim they have received threats or nuisance calls then I don't understand why they have not reported anything to the authorities instead of the Sikh Channel...unless they are simply fabricating or exaggerating all of this to bring disrepute to any opposition against their anti Gurmat actions.

RST committee have heard what Akal Takht Sahib have said straight from the mouth of the Jathedar Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji, they know what Gurbani says and I am sure deep down some of them know what their conscience tells them. Let's do ardaas that they realise this and not let the whole Panth Time show tomorrow just become a platform to generate cheap propaganda from the comfort of their home turf.

I hope Sangat from Birmingham who attend Panth Time Show tommorrow raise the above points highlighted by Bir_Rass ...

[Satkaar 108]

SANGAT UPDATE

Birmingham, UK - 9 December 2010

RST Committee claim their inability to meet UK Sangat until second week of January

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

As servants of the UK Sangat, we feel it is our duty to keep the UK Sangat fully informed of developments in relation to the Satkaar campaign. Please see below the email exchange that has been had with the committee of Ramgarhia Sikh Temple (RST), Birmingham. The RST committee have also confirmed orally to members of the UK Sangat that they will not meet with the UK Sangat on this issue until the second week of January.

As mentioned in our email below to the RST committee, Satkaar Sevadaars wish to ensure that there is full transparency and accountability for the actions of all involved. In light of this, so that this cannot be used as an excuse to deflect attention away from the real issue (which is meat, alcohol, tobacco and parties being permitted on Gurdwara premises), we would like to re-iterate that we have always requested, and we again request, that the UK Sangat speak at all times to the relevant committee members with courtesy and respect - this is the Gursikh way.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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From: info@rstbirmingham.com

To: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: RE: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 18:19:39 +0000

Our sincerest Apologies but as discussed we will not be in a postion to meet with you until the second week of January. I also wish to inform you that smoking is not permitted anywhere on the Gurdwara grounds inlcuding the car park and adjacent buildings. It is a strict condition of booking that tobacco is not allowed in the hall which is not part of the building.

There is also a strict rule that meat, alchol and tobacco and consumption prior to entering is strictly prohibited at the Gurdwara, Langar Hall and Car Park.

Regards

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From: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

To: info@rstbirmingham.com

CC: satkaar@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: RE: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:23:16 +0000

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Many thanks for your email. Further to the points raised therein, and also certain concerns/issues which Dr Pyara Singh Bhogal raised in the Panth Time Special on Sikh Channel on 4 December 2010, there are certain issues which we would like to clarify/address.

Firstly, Satkaar Sevadaars would like to re-emphasise that we do NOT encourage violence and we stand for a completely PEACEFUL Gurdwara reform movement. Our sole concern is to ensure that the Beadbi that is currently occurring on certain Gurdwara premises throughout the UK is stopped, and that meat, alcohol, tobacco and parties are no longer allowed on such Gurdwara premises.

Accordingly, we are extremely sorry to hear about any previous instances of violence/criminal damage that may have occurred, as mentioned in your email below. Satkaar Sevadaars were not aware of such incidents, and it goes without saying (though we will mention this expressly for the avoidance of doubt), we had absolutely no involvement in such incidents. We are all children of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, and accordingly, we endorse the view that we must treat each other with dignity and respect. Further, as Essex Police will be able to confirm, our overriding emphasis in the previous Grays peaceful protest was to ensure that it passed off completely peacefully. To the extent that you still have any concerns on this, please let us know the details of the police officers you are liaising with in the West Midlands Police, and we will be happy to provide them with the relevant assurances that they may be seeking.

Dr Bhogal mentioned that he was disturbed by certain 'posts' made on the SikhSangat internet forum. Satkaar Sevadaars cannot control, and are not responsible for, what individuals write on such forum. If you find anything particularly offensive or factually incorrect, we would encourage you to join the SikhSangat forum and clarify any issues you are unhappy with. Further, you will note that we have always encouraged the Sangat to speak to your Committee courteously and respectfully in all our communications with the Sangat. To the extent that there have been any misunderstandings in communications between your Committee and members of the Sangat, we understand that there have been some discussions seeking to clarify/resolve such misunderstandings.

One concern that we understand you have, which Dr Bhogal expressed on Panth Time, is that you feel the "Ramgarhia" caste/community is being targeted by the Satkaar campaign. As the Sangat watching Panth Time saw, the Panth Time panel members at once sought to assure Dr Bhogal that this is absolutely NOT the case. As you well know, our Guru Sahibaans eradicated casteism within Sikhi philosophy. Accordingly, we are all equal GurSikh brothers and sisters and we would like to formally re-iterate the point to you that there can be, and there is, no issue of caste arising within the Satkaar campaign. There are individuals from all walks of background who do Seva with the grassroots, UK Sangat-led Satkaar movement. As mentioned above, collectively, our sole concern is to prevent meat, alcohol and tobacco being permitted, and parties being held, on UK Gurdwara premises. Our Panth is unfortunately, against our Guru Ji's core teachings, riddled with division. We wish the Panth to be united through mutual understanding and love. This can only be achieved if we all follow Gurmat principles and encourage maintaining maximum Satkaar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.

We appreciate that the Gurdwara Committee will need to go through its relevant internal processes to pass a binding resolution confirming that it will abide by the Gurmat principles enshrined in Akal Takhat Sahib's 2006 Sandesh, and we understand that, due to certain logistical issues, this may not be possible prior to the second week of January. However, we are disappointed (as we think you are suggesting in your email below) that not even certain members of the Committee that are around prior to such date will be able to meet us before then. As Akaal Takhat Sahib's Jathedaar, Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji, mentioned on Panth Time, we should seek to resolve this issue through mutual discussion and pyaar, and we are keen that this is resolved as soon as possible. We would again encourage you to set some time aside to meet members of the UK Sangat as soon as possible to discuss this matter further, and again, we propose a meeting (as we did in our email to you below) at 5pm on Saturday 11 December 2010 at Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham. If this time is not convenient, please suggest another time during such weekend, or any weekend thereafter, when it may be convenient to meet. Once a mutually convenient meeting time is confirmed, we will be happy to confirm to you in advance of the meeting the names of the relevant attendees representing the UK Sangat.

Please note that, as Satkaar Sevadaars are only humble servants of the UK Sangat, our duty is to ensure that the UK Sangat is fully informed of any progress in relation to our ongoing Seva. Accordingly, we will circulate and publish this email exchange for the benefit of the UK Sangat. Any responses you provide will also be made publicly available for the benefit of the UK Sangat. This will also help to ensure that there is full transparency and accountability for the actions of all involved.

Going forwards, our communication with you will be by email through this email address, unless you specifically request otherwise. You can contact us by using this same e-mail address, or you can call us at any time through one of our Sevadaars on 07507 330 548. We would respectfully request you to please help develop this dialogue, and if possible, have a face-to-face meeting as soon as possible (as suggested above), so that we can reach a mutual understanding and trust, and a solution as soon as possible, which ensures that the Gurmat principles explained by Akaal Takhat Sahib's Jathedaar on Panth Time, and set out in the 2006 Sandesh, are fully respected and followed.

We look forward to hearing from you very shortly.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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From: info@rstbirmingham.com

To: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

CC: satkaar@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: RE: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 12:26:41 +0000

We have had an indepth meeting with the Commitee members and the earliest date that we can meet is the 2nd week of january as key individuals from the managemnet Commitee are currently abroad due to return in the first week of January.

A formal response will be sent to certain individuals and the members will be informed of our response likewise as they will make the ultimate decision and only members who have contributed to the Gurdwara will have a say in the decision which will be made, no external bodies or influences will be entertained.

The Gurdwara is a registered charity, the charity comission have been informed along with the police of the 'complaints' made against the members along with the threatening phone calls which were made and the posts on 'sikh sangat'. The police are currently investigating as you may be aware that previsouly the former President's car's were burned and a prominent member was seriously injured in a horrific attack instigated by certain members of the 'sangat'. The names of these individuals are also known who have bought the Sikh name to shame and the police is investigating if there are any links to this.

Finally, we would appreciate that all names and contact numbers of the Uk Sangat wishing to talk to use are forwarded and formal invitations will be sent out. The Comittee is willing to talk to and consider thier viewpoints however the final decision will be that of the Gurdwara Members.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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From: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

To: info@rstbirmingham.com

CC: satkaar@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: RE: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:59:55 +0000

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Many thanks for your email. Please feel free to contact the sevadaars via email or the phone number on the letter addressed to the President Mr Jasvinder Singh Sagoo. Various members from the UK Sangat would very much like to meet with the Gurdwara Committee representatives. Can a time of 5pm on Saturday 11 December 2010 at Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham be proposed for a meeting?

Look forward to your response.

Many thanks,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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From: info@rstbirmingham.com

To: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: RE: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:40:53 +0000

Dear Satkaarsevadaars,

Could you please provide you contact details and names so that contact can be made with yourselves and discussion take place regarding the matter.

Saadh Sangat Ji, we have created this website to keep you updated with the Latest Events, New Multimedia Content and General Activities at the Gurdwara Sahib that are taking place.

We hope that you will enjoy browsing through this website. We shall be adding to the site regularly, so please keep checking back to see what's new.

Do you want to Learn how to play Harmonium and Sing Kirtan, please visit "Learn Kirtan" youtube channel.

At Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, we are running weekly classes for Punjabi, IT, Yoga, Maths, Kirtan, Gurbani Santhiya etc. for more information on days and timings, please visit our website.

For more information and daily updates, please visit our website at www.RSTBirmingham.com

If you wish to subscribe your friend's or family member's email so they also get the new letters and events updates, please send their email address to info@rstbirmingham.com

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna Ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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From: satkaarsevadaars@hotmail.co.uk

To: satkaar@hotmail.co.uk

Subject: Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:55:36 +0000

PLEASE DO FORWARD TO ALL YOUR SIKH CONTACTS - It's important to continue raising awareness of this issue in the Sangat

Press Release

Birmingham, UK. 27 November 2010

Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham violate Sikh Maryada

Meat, alcohol and parties allowed in Gurdwara owned hall

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

After the successful closure of the Grays and Edinburgh Gurdwara party halls, the local congregation of Birmingham have now raised concerns in regards to the anti-Sikh activities allowed to take place in the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgarhia Hall which is managed by the Committee of Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham.

The Sikh congregation of Birmingham have been offended by the continual promotion of a belligerent atmosphere under the banner of a great Sikh icon (Baba Jassa Singh Ramgarhia) and with the patronage of the Gurdwara Committee itself, where parties, meat, alcohol and smoking are permitted on the Gurdwara Jagir (Estate).

Due to these issues, a dialogue has now officially been initiated between Satkaar Sevadaars and members of the Committee of this Gurdwara (please see the letter attached).

We now humbly request that members of the UK Sangat, other Parbandhik Committees and Sikh Leaders contact this Committee in a respectful fashion to help them understand their obligation to Sri Akal Takht Sahib and Sikh Maryada.

President – Mr Jasvinder Singh Sagoo

General Secretary – Mr Gurcharan Singh Bahra

Tel: 0121 236 5435 0121 233 2647

Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, 6-9 Graham Street, Birmingham. B1 3LA

[VanHelsingh 1,983]

Why are people resorting to threats? How will intimidation and such actions help further the cause of those who wish to halt further instances of beadbi at other Gurudwaras? I hope nobody on here is partaking in such activities.

[gurdssingh 113]

This bit goes at the end after video im on my mobile its messing up. Video of the gurdwara sevadrs not random sangat doing it. There should be one rule for all. Btw i am from sandhu clan no link to bhatra or ramgarhias. The srart of post is

To sangat and satkar sevadar, if someone brings dead animal uncooked into maharaj hazoori / darbar sahib it is beadbi as it is classed as meat right? No matter how prestigase the gurdwara it will and should be confronted of there is video