Beadbi At Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Graham Street, Birmingham

[GurSa Singh]

Gurfateh Jee,

I heard that the 'Panth time' at the hall was a wasn't true, that there was a fake text going around. Nothing happened, there was no panth time there. Is this true??

The Panth Time due to be recorded on 10th December at RST was announced on the previous weeks Live Panth Time (4th December) by Prof Gurnam Singh. It must have then been cancelled.

[SinghWarrior]

I have a family friend who is a regular at the Gurdwara. She told me the Panth Time recording was cancelled last minute. What is not clear to her is whether the committee cancelled it, or the Sikh Channel cancelled it.

She also told me that it appears the committee is walking round in high visibility jackets acting as "security" due to the potential "threat" from hot-head youths from which the local sangat needs to be protected. If this is the case and it is a confirmed policy of the committee, this seems like a real cynical ploy by the committee to keep their local sangat on side, when the real thing they should be doing is stoppping the manmat activities permitted in the hall.

[SarabhaPanjab]

I know their games.

They will tell their sangat that "others" are against their "caste" and are trying to close them down just because of their caste. majority of the desi bandheh will believe this and stop going to other gurdwaras and bring their kids to Ramgarhia, as a show of solidarity and unity.

nearly all Ramgarhia gurdwaras have been built on this principle, and not for the betterment of the Panth or to flourish Sikhi.

Many Gursikhs have allowed the issue of beadbi, chairs in langar & abuse of golak to go unchallenged for the sake of not stiring up caste hatred.

This is how anti panthic, bhaman promoting corrupt leaders have taken over these gurdwaras.

This is the same Gurdwara where they married a paki to an apni and read the name of Raja Khan in the Ardass, then lied point blank to Sikh leaders. They had no reply when the recording was played.

These guys have shown their colours many times. Congresi's to the core.

Same goes for Beadbi at Ravidass temples. Many cases where Sewa of DHAN Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj is lacking or non existant.

But we're happy to turn a blind eye, because we do not want to offend others sentiments.

Gurbani tells us to allow sin, to allow paap, to allow beadbi is also a paap.

In the court of Dharam Raaj we will all be held accountable and there will be no excuse

[VanHelsingh]

A close friend of mine decided to hold a langar at a local Gurudwara. He is a Ramgharia and the Gurudwara where the langar was held was not of any caste denomination. Anyway, his relatives are all invited and when the bhog has taken place and everyone is in the langar hall, I hear about 4 different people (who were invited) come up to my friend's mother and say in Punjabi, "Why didn't you have the langar in one of OUR Gurudwara's?", i.e. in a Ramgharia Gurudwara. I was utterly gobsmacked.

The word "our" really got to me - aren't we all supposed to be Sikhs? I wanted to ask my friend what the meaning of this was, but to be fair we've never discussed issues of caste - I see him as a Sikh and he considers me to be the same. I didn't want to stain our friendship due to the ignorance of others.

I'm not saying other Sikh castes don't have such conversations, but to hear it with my own ears and the tone of the question as if to say that this Gurudwara was somehow not suitable - well its very sad.

[dalsingh101]

You have to be careful, the statement "Why didn't you have the langar in one of OUR Gurudwara's?", might have been implying the Gurdwara local to the speaker, or one he/she is affiliated to on a non caste-based basis.

I've heard the very same sentence a few times over the years and the sayer was suggesting their local Gurdwara which they were obviously emotionally attached to. Sometimes people love their local Gurdwara (understandably) and push for events to take place there.

When you grow up around a place and if you have good experiences with it, it's easy to have that sort of feeling.

[VanHelsingh]

@ dalsingh - Valid point. But the body language, the facial expressions when this statement was uttered, the almost conspiratorial-like tone (leaning in and saying quietly) - it was very dodgy. But I do take your point about the interpretation of what was said.

[sikhpaji]

I know their games.

They will tell their sangat that "others" are against their "caste" and are trying to close them down just because of their caste. majority of the desi bandheh will believe this and stop going to other gurdwaras and bring their kids to Ramgarhia, as a show of solidarity and unity.

nearly all Ramgarhia gurdwaras have been built on this principle, and not for the betterment of the Panth or to flourish Sikhi.

Many Gursikhs have allowed the issue of beadbi, chairs in langar & abuse of golak to go unchallenged for the sake of not stiring up caste hatred.

This is how anti panthic, bhaman promoting corrupt leaders have taken over these gurdwaras.

This is the same Gurdwara where they married a paki to an apni and read the name of Raja Khan in the Ardass, then lied point blank to Sikh leaders. They had no reply when the recording was played.

These guys have shown their colours many times. Congresi's to the core.

Same goes for Beadbi at Ravidass temples. Many cases where Sewa of DHAN Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj is lacking or non existant.

But we're happy to turn a blind eye, because we do not want to offend others sentiments.

Gurbani tells us to allow sin, to allow paap, to allow beadbi is also a paap.

In the court of Dharam Raaj we will all be held accountable and there will be no excuse

I am totally gobsmacked at the comments made above about the supposed Muslim person who got married to a Sikh Girl. Firstly I think you need to check your records to see if his name was Khan and whether this was said in the Ardsass. I am aware and I saw a copy of the booking

at the gurdwara and the wedding card which said the boys name was just Raaj. If the family manipulated the situation so that they could justify the fact thier daughter got married at the Gurdwara to satisfy themselves then that is no fault of the commitee. Checks have been put in place know and I am aware that one of my cousins wanted to get married there to a hindu punjabi girl and the refused, They check all your passports and ID's on a form prior to allowing you to book there which is not the case for most Gurdwara where some of these 'Sikh ' Leaders Reside. I went to demonstrate the day this was incorrectly communicated and saw a video of this guy changing his name and following the Guru Granth Sahib. His name was changed to Raj Singh by deed Poll and the person who conducted the ceremony was Inderjit Singh Khalsa, Hazoori Ragi at Harminder Sahib. I am sure that if you

go there the commitee will show you the video. So stop spreading malicious rumours which does our community no good.

To the point of the Hall. If you ask the Previous Head Granthis family they will confirm to you that there was no charge for the Hall for Lunch at his daughters wedding. The Gurdwara Committee has confirmed with me that they do not charge for the hall as long as there is no meat, alcohol, or dancing for the meal. Unfortounately only 2 families over the last 3 years have booked it for this reason.

As people say with Drug Addicts, if there was not a demand for it there would not be a business for it. So more emphasis should be given to that and educating our sikh community. Educating the boy and Girl getting married that wearing a Turban in the morning and shaving straighaway afterwards and rushing the religios ceremony should not be encouraged and they need to be educated that if they did not want drink and meat there would not be a need to book the halls for this reason. Closing the hall will drive all these Sikh people to go other halls. You and not stopping the practice of Sikh's eating meat and alcohol but just diverting them elsewhere. Let us educate the families of all Castes that we do not have a Meat and Drink Party before or after a wedding. The gurdwara may benfit by about £500.00 for the hir of the hall but its the Halwai and hotels who charge £50 per head who are ripping our community apart. A tenth of that money could go to a good Sikh causes would prevent the Gurdwara having to fund there running in other ways, suchj as hiring out halls.

I have seen people paying the Gurdwara £250.00 for the Wedding complain every bit of the way but paying a hall and halwaii for the Lunch after costing them £25000 is accepted. That is what we need to focus on and stop.

[Pyara]

Sikh Paji,

From your postings above, I suspect you are linked to the RST committee in some way.

A primary role of a Gurdwara Committee (as custodians of Sikh maryada) is the promotion Sikh/Gurmat principles. I feel your comments on halwais and hotels acts as a pretext to take the focus away from the specific anti Sikhs activities allowed in the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgharihia hall.

You yourself have talked about educating "families of all Castes that we do not have a Meat and Drink Party before or after a wedding", in short the bad examples set by Gurdwara Committees such as RST will not help in the education towards the evils of alcohol abuse. The best stand for a Gurdwara Committee like RST to make would be to abolish the acceptance of alcohol, meat and parties on the site of the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgharihia hall. This is at least a start in the kind of education programme you have suggested above in your post.

[GurSa Singh]

Its a shame the thread's going off the specific topic into a personal feud between 2 indviduals. For the sake of the issue, I beg the 2 guys to carry on elsewhere.

Within the peripheries of the Gurdwara Sahib Gurmat must prevail. Theres no excuse for that not happening whatsoever. These are controllable boundaries for Sikh maryada, outside these physical boundaries one can argue that Manmat is highly likely to dominate.

Our Gurdwaras are the central hubs of our Sikhi. The activities which take place in these Gurdwara give direction to millions of Sikhs on how to conduct their lives. If our hubs are disciplined then we leave little room for corruption to set in. If our hubs allow immoral activities to set in then no doubt the congregation are likely to be influenced or use the immoral activities to justify un-Sikh activities.

This Satkaar campaign is a simple request to keep the Gurdwara property a pavitar place. A pavitar place where papis like me are blessed with Amrit not barcadi or whiskey. If people who have appointed themselves custodians of these Gurdwaras (i.e. the Committee) are unable to see the moral dilemma they cause by promoting alcohol, meat and parties, then hopefully Gurbani will guide them. If they fail to understand Gurbani then hopefully a Sandesh will guide them. If that fails then hopefully Sangat pressure will guide them.

In simple terms. There is no excuse to allow alcohol, meat etc. on the premises of any Gurdwara complex.

[SinghWarrior]

Anyways, back to the topic.

"SikhPaji" - CLEARLY linked to the Ramgarhia Birmingham committee, is making the argument that Gurdwaras should permit party halls with meat and alcohol, so that the saving that people make on hiring elsewhere can be used as Dasvandh!!! This is the most twisted logic ever.

On the one hand you say that people should be discouraged from having party halls, yet you are permitting the institutions that should be doing parchaar of this to have their own halls?

Parties with meat and alcohol OUTSIDE the gurdwara = WRONG

Parties with meat and alcohol AT the gurdwara = WRONG

2 WRONGS do NOT make a RIGHT. It's high time the Ramgarhia Birmingham committee realise this.