Brainwashed

[11Gurus1Jot]

Akal Warrior,

I don't think Singh559 is doing this out of ego, it's out of compassion.

Let's make an example up (this is not about you Akaal Warrior, it's just an example. Please read it as an example, and then give your answer to that example:

Say you had a very young daughter who you loved more than you own life. And say you believed that there was something for your daughter after she died of old age, one day. And say if you believed that there was justice, not only in this life, but after life too. And say if you believed that there was one almighty creator. And say if you had read the history of the 10 Gurus, Sahibzadey, Shaheeds, and the great acts the Great Gursikhs had committed in history after following Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, the eternal Guru.

And then, after reading the above history, you found that all the fake gurus of today couldn't match, even by a very small amount, any of the Courage and Compassion of any of the Gurus, Sahibzadey, or Shaheeds i.e. all that the fake gurus did was sit around without making any sacrifice. And then say you read the Shabads written by and approved by the 10 Gurus, and thought they rang of the ultimate truth. And after that, you thought my Gurus and their Gursikhs lived a truthful life that was beyond just talk, and so, out of love for your daughter, you wanted her to follow the Sikhi of the 11 Gurus, because you thought it gave her something in this life and the next, and it gave her truth!!!!. Then, would you bring your daughter up to believe in Sri Guru Guru Granth Sahib Ji as her Guru, as very very clearly stated/ordered by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1708 when he gave Gurgaddi (Guruship) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Guru Maneo Granth). Or would you let her follow a fake guru, and therefore very very clearly defy Guru Gobind Singh Ji's very clear, and very unambiguous, order?

The above is not about you it's just an example. So, in the above example, what would you have your daughter, or anyone else you cared about, follow???

[Akal Warrior]

More than one line is being read, but if you believe I am saying something wrong then share your wisdom with us. The problem here is not that you disagree, but are acting like a Brahmin who thinks he knows better than all and are unwilling to share with us, who you consider lower.

Your passing judgement on me to say I only read one or two lines is your arrogant head getting to you. I have a million questions for you if you really want to get into this, if not then don't act like some Brahmin that has the hidden knowledge and can't share it with the lower class people.

I am sorry for even getting into this. There is no point in arguing. If I were to respond to your last post, i would be doing it out of ego anyways...so i'm just gonna stop it right here. Sorry to upset you my brothers.

[11Gurus1Jot]

I wont bother arguing with you guys. i know that you guys have obviously reached very high states of spirituality and are all-knowing. Thanks for enlightening me.

ps- Bani is very deep. Sometimes we have to read more than one or two lines to grasp the real message of Guru Sahib.

I am sorry for even getting into this. There is no point in arguing. If I were to respond to your last post, i would be doing it out of ego anyways...so i'm just gonna stop it right here. Sorry to upset you my brothers.

Dear Akaal Warrior, I can't see how only five is arguing with you? I mean, he is simply stating the Guru's Shabad which he does not have the ego to go against. Isn't that what Gurmat means instead of Manmat? Don't you have to give up your own Manmat (own ideas) and take on the Gurmat (Gurus' Ideas) as the Gurus lives were a million times more truthful than ours (God is Truth)!

What I am saying is, this is a debate forum on Sikhi and therefore you debate, not argue. If you say something which nobody can link back to the Guru's Shabad/order and then people ask that you please explain it further, in case you have got it right and they have got it wrong, then, don't you think you should have the Courtesy to explain it for them, rather than just accusing them of arguing?

Otherwise, somebody could think you're just an anti-sikh agent who tries his luck on any of the topics he can to see if his attack on Sikhi is accepted, and therefore sway the 'regular' members on this site, and also the Sikh non-members who happen to hit this site, and your post. I am not saying that is the case, you may have a genuine point but if you just say people are arguing when they ask you to enlighten them further, then like I say you could be perceived as an anti-sikh agent who is trying his luck!

By the way, is there any chance you can reply to the post I directed at you? Or do you think that is arguing too?

[Singh559]

Just forget it, we're all good intentioned here, no need to stir up anything.

My original intent wasn't to show false pride, maafi chaunga galthi aaste.

[11Gurus1Jot]

By the way Akaal Warrior, I am the person who gave you a plus one for your post above, I meant to give you a minus one. Sorry!

[11Gurus1Jot]

Just forget it, we're all good intentioned here, no need to stir up anything.

My original intent wasn't to show false pride, maafi chaunga galthi aaste.

Singh, I am not trying to stirr up anything. I just can't accept that that chootaa sauda Rahim bloke should be compared to our 11 Gurus on a Forum/site we call 'SikhSangat'

I just think Sikh Sangat goes much beyond the 'good intentioned' regular members on this site. We have to considered the genuine young Sikhs, getting into Sikhi, who will come across this site by chance and start searching through all the posts. If you look at Akaal Warriors posts it's like he's saying it's OK to worship that chootaa sauda Rahim bloke. We all know that bloke's a con man!!!

If this forum wasn't call Sikh Sangat then I wouldn't defend this post!

We either stand up against this 'attack' in every instance, every time (we can) or we let it go! It's our choice

Only Five posted this on another Topic to question if the indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is doing enough for sikhs (look at the last sentence).

2000 farmers in Punjab are committing suicide a year (facts from march 2010), this is a national crisis that the head of state needs to address, but Manmohan did nothing. Manmohan telling Sikhs to forget about 1984 is corruption. Tell us how he would be favoring a state this is in crisis? Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj never said forget about the Sikhs that died fighting for all people. The Sikh religion is being attacked by fake sants and self-proclaimed gurus.

[Akal Warrior]

To 11Gurus1Jot Ji:

Bhai Sahib Ji...I wasn't going to respond anymore, but I feel i need to reply to your last post...

1st of all, please go back and read my original post on this thread (post #3). I said:

"Singh559 Ji. With all due respect, I dont agree with the last sentence in your post"

I was referring to the last sentence only...i didn't say that i do not agree with the whole post. The only thing i said i did not agree with is where it says Sikhi is the only path to God. I never once said that anyone should worship these fake gurus. You also said that some youth might come on this site and see this "mis-information"...however, that is the reason i responded to this thread: i dont want some new person to Sikhi to come on this site and think "Oh, i always thought Sikhi respected all religions, but they are just like the muslims and christians, proclaiming that they are the only ones worthy of God". Thats why i replied to it. I have talked to some very well respected Kathavachiks and even asked this question to a Chardi Kala Sant, and none of them has said to me that Sikhi is the only path to God. In fact one Mahapurkh said "Those who claim Sach Khand is only for Sikhs, tell them to show you the keys to Sach Khand" (meaning that these people have never been there themselves, but are making pretty huge claims)

look...i am not anti-panthic, i am not an 'agent'. I love the Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, I love Guru Ji's Khalsa Panth, I have respect for Gurmukhs who have attached themselves to Guru Ji's charan. Just because I feel that we shouldn't judge other dharms does not make me any less of a Sikh. I know some very religious people of other religions who have sooooo much love for God, and i just cant come to grips with the fact that God will deny them.

Please...lets just stop it right here. This reply is again a reflection of my ego. I apologize to all you Gursikh brothers and sisters for any mistakes i made. Honestly, i used to have some pretty hardcore views. I used to openly condemn other religions, until someone opened up my eyes and reminded me that i am nothing. I am just full of arrogance, and have no right to judge others. I have no avastha, yet i talk about these deep spiritual things. I try to make myself feel better about myself, by telling myself that I am one of the very few 'lucky ones' who have found the only path to God. I am still full of so much ego...Waheguru forgive me.

ps- saw this on a bumper sticker: "God is too Big to fit into one religion"

[Only five]

I have talked to some very well respected Kathavachiks and even asked this question to a Chardi Kala Sant, and none of them has said to me that Sikhi is the only path to God. In fact one Mahapurkh said "Those who claim Sach Khand is only for Sikhs, tell them to show you the keys to Sach Khand" (meaning that these people have never been there themselves, but are making pretty huge claims)

I'm pretty sure which Mahapurkh your refering too. So next time you meet him or get a chance to speak with him or others that you know get a chance to meet him. Then this is my reply back to his key and SachKand remark. If other religions, Koran, Bible, Vedas, etc take people to Sachkand then why didn't Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj place these religious texts on a Palki and make them equal to Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as the Guru?

The people that asked this Mahapurkh this question did not phrase the question in the correct manner. I am not going to say his name because I'm not sure for 100% that your refering to him. And the question was phrased to this Mahapurkh in this way. Some people say if you don't take Amrit then you won't go to Sachkhand? I believe it was Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Bhindranwale that said those that don't take Amrit and die fighting for Sikhi will have to take birth again and take Amrit to be accepted in Sachkhand. Don't hold me to this, but im pretty sure it was him who said this.

Gurmat is vast and those that practice it know the teachings. Let's not make SIKHI some narrow path, which these people that ask Sant's question make it as to prove their points.

[11Gurus1Jot]

To 11Gurus1Jot Ji:

Bhai Sahib Ji...I wasn't going to respond anymore, but I feel i need to reply to your last post...

1st of all, please go back and read my original post on this thread (post #3). I said:

"Singh559 Ji. With all due respect, I dont agree with the last sentence in your post"

I was referring to the last sentence only...i didn't say that i do not agree with the whole post. The only thing i said i did not agree with is where it says Sikhi is the only path to God. I never once said that anyone should worship these fake gurus. You also said that some youth might come on this site and see this "mis-information"...however, that is the reason i responded to this thread: i dont want some new person to Sikhi to come on this site and think "Oh, i always thought Sikhi respected all religions, but they are just like the muslims and christians, proclaiming that they are the only ones worthy of God". Thats why i replied to it. I have talked to some very well respected Kathavachiks and even asked this question to a Chardi Kala Sant, and none of them has said to me that Sikhi is the only path to God. In fact one Mahapurkh said "Those who claim Sach Khand is only for Sikhs, tell them to show you the keys to Sach Khand" (meaning that these people have never been there themselves, but are making pretty huge claims)

look...i am not anti-panthic, i am not an 'agent'. I love the Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, I love Guru Ji's Khalsa Panth, I have respect for Gurmukhs who have attached themselves to Guru Ji's charan. Just because I feel that we shouldn't judge other dharms does not make me any less of a Sikh. I know some very religious people of other religions who have sooooo much love for God, and i just cant come to grips with the fact that God will deny them.

Please...lets just stop it right here. This reply is again a reflection of my ego. I apologize to all you Gursikh brothers and sisters for any mistakes i made. Honestly, i used to have some pretty hardcore views. I used to openly condemn other religions, until someone opened up my eyes and reminded me that i am nothing. I am just full of arrogance, and have no right to judge others. I have no avastha, yet i talk about these deep spiritual things. I try to make myself feel better about myself, by telling myself that I am one of the very few 'lucky ones' who have found the only path to God. I am still full of so much ego...Waheguru forgive me.

ps- saw this on a bumper sticker: "God is too Big to fit into one religion"

To Akaal Warrior Ji, Thanks for the reply. I did think you were trying to say that it was OK to worship Fake gurus who try to replace the 11Gurus, or take Sikhs away from the 11Gurus. So becuase you say you clearly condemn fake gurus I sincerely apologise to you and also see you now as a very strong Sikh agent rather than an anti-sikh agent.

Can I just clarify my point of view. I believe all religions can reach god except those that are set up to replace, or superseed Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj Ji, or religions set up to make people think they are joining a Sikhi alternative of Some Kind. There is only one Sikhi in the world today and that is the Sikhi of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj the eternal Guru Sahib Ji.

Power to the Muslims, Power to the Hindus, Power to the Christians, Power to the Jews, Power to the Buddists and all other religions that started off on their own steam. However, most of all, Power to the Sikhs!!

Down with any fake gurus and cults who were specifically set up to manipulate Sikhi and the Sikhs. The Athiests and Agnostics are a thousand times better than the fake gurus and cults who compete with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj!!!)

[Only five]

I know some very religious people of other religions who have sooooo much love for God, and i just cant come to grips with the fact that God will deny them.

This point needs to be discussed further. Many peole bring this point up when they want to justfy something they believe in very strongly....I know God will not deny them.

Let's go to the beginning of the universe. What did a human do to be born as a snake, mouse, ant, etc and then to be a human. As a matter of fact what did a soul do to be born into a human? Look at all the kids that are sleeping without food and water today and then all year long. Look at all the suffering around the world. Let's take the above logic (Akal Warrior point) and apply it here. Why did God put these poor souls through this cycle of birth and death, i know there is no such as God because a God that is loving will not put souls into this cycle, where they suffer. In the above Akal Warrior is saying a God that sees people dedicationg themselves to God will not deny them. All I did is replace dedicated with loving. In Gurmat this does not make no sense whatsoever.

Also if people say I am being judging and playing God, then I can flip this around and say the same to anyone that uses the above logic. Why are you judging and playing God to say God will accept them. No one should judge and play God.

Sikhs accept Satguru ji as the path to Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj.