Sikh Sexual Morality

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Theeka jeeo, but it wasn't me who said what you quoted

maaf karna ji , i thought you were kalsingh

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Why would a baptised Gursikh have intimate relations with a non-baptised Gursikh? This makes no-sense.

Well that can make no sense to you but it can make sense to someone

I became Gursikh against my parents wishes. My father was very angry with me that why i became Gursikh.

My father used to fight with my mom after drink sometimes about me. The problem became worse when i say to my father that i wanted Gursikh Girl.

There were fights every day between my mom and dad. I was very upset because i couldn't do anything. My father didn't say anything me because i was grown up but he used to fight with my mom.

My father did not wanted Gursikh girl , he wanted some modern Girl but i was against it.

But as time passes by my father used to fight more more with mom and i couldn't do anything bout that. I had to agree to marry with non amirtdhari because i was not able to find any suitable Gursikh girl.

i was very upset but i can't see my mom in problem so i had to agree to marriage.

But due to Guru ji grace something happened and that enagament got broken before marriage and then just within 1 week i got rishta form Amridhari girl

and we will get married within few months.

Sometimes we don't have any choice

[m4ndy]

I can understand the difficulty in that, if a couple got married and they were NOT amritdhari at the time but one partner after marriage wanted to take Amrit and the other did not that's where the problem would lie. This would change everything because now we have two very completly different people one has become pure and taken Amrit and the other chose not to, so how can a sexual relationship take place this would be like water and electricity together. Plus why would you want to have sex if it's not engaging in that activity for children? I know some people can't control such feelings but it's quite disgusting really, when one learns that everyone out there is like brother/sister apart from marital partner one cannot even begin to think about lust. Lust is wrong but turn it around to use to get a child but don't get addicted. It's like with food the more you indulge the more you want the more it looks appealing to the eyes the more you want, but if you refer to science actually engaging in sexual activity has an impact on health same way the other 4 vices Guru ji tells us it's linked with science and has a huge effect on health.

Kaam will cause you to do things a Sikh is forbidden to do = effect on religion... if kaam takes over one can engage in sexual activity with many people before marriage= effect on health diseases..

Everyone has there own way of dealing with it but really the problem lies within yourself and not society it's up to individuals to tackle it and see the world as all gods creation all brothers n sisters together to achieve the same objectives in life...

[Only five]

You r right in that. But again there is nothing like right or wrong because in order to judge what is right or wrong one has to be perfect and without any vices and perfect is only Vaheguru so technically beside Brahmgyani or Guru sahib no one can say what is right or wrong.

But sometimes when we say things from our judgement like you said

I won't discuss this point with you. When the time is right Satguru will present the answer to you. The stage I am at right now is where Satguru has given me the answer to such way of thinking and I have disregarded it. A Shabad from Sri Anand Sahib da paat gave the answer here after contemplating over it for a long time.

Kalsingh is 100% right, as very Sikh should be able to achieve this through Naam Simran.

then someone who is browsing the forum gets confused that he is doing something wrong while engagaing with his wife.

So instead of concentrating on things like naam simran , he will get more and more worried about how he can avoid that.

It happened with me. Instead of Nitnem i started thinking about high level things and then i was in total chaos , them someone guided me that first fix you Amritwela and then we will talk further

You thinking is perfect for that person who is already good on Guru sahib path and by following ur advice he can go one step further but very often new bies gets confused.I am talking from my experience. May be i am having very bad karmas that i am like that but it happend with me

Bhul chuk maaf

Singh, Gurbani tells us the following:

jy ko hovY dublw n�g BuK kI pIr ] (70-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

jay ko hovai dublaa nang bhukh kee peer.

If you are weakened by the pains of hunger and poverty,

dmVw plY nw pvY nw ko dyvY DIr ] (70-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

damrhaa palai naa pavai naa ko dayvai Dheer.

with no money in your pockets, and no one will give you any comfort,

suAwrQu suAwau n ko kry nw ikCu hovY kwju ] (70-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

su-aarath su-aa-o na ko karay naa kichh hovai kaaj.

and no one will satisfy your hopes and desires, and none of your works is accomplished

iciq AwvY Esu pwrbRhmu qw inhclu hovY rwju ]2] (70-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

chit aavai os paarbarahm taa nihchal hovai raaj. ||2||

-if you then come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall obtain the eternal kingdom. ||2||

jw kau icMqw bhuqu bhuqu dyhI ivAwpY rogu ] (70-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

jaa ka-o chintaa bahut bahut dayhee vi-aapai rog.

When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body;

igRsiq kutMib plyitAw kdy hrKu kdy sogu ] (70-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

garisat kutamb palayti-aa kaday harakh kaday sog.

when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow;

gauxu kry chu kuMt kw GVI n bYsxu soie ] (70-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

ga-on karay chahu kunt kaa gharhee na baisan so-ay.

when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment

iciq AwvY Esu pwrbRhmu qnu mnu sIqlu hoie ]3] (70-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

chit aavai os paarbarahm tan man seetal ho-ay. ||3||

-if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||

ang 70

Singh contemplate over this pauri and ask yourself which person is not in the above state of mind? We all are in this above state of mind. We have nothing, to stand on. We look to worldly entanglements to hold us up, so we don't break down. In the above Satguru shows us what, if all of it is taken away. Then where would you run too? Who would you clinge on to then? Also further Satguru makes us realize with the above pauri that initially we had none of this stuff. We came here naked and will go naked if we clinge to this kind of stuff. Think back to a time when you were in this state of mind. What did you do to pull yourself out? Satguru is telling us the answer in the above (start doing Naam Simran; remember Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj), when you fall into such state of mind. The driving force behind kaam is ego. From ego is where kaam comes from and absorbs the Sikh into manmat actions. Look at the word manmat. It defines that the mind is in control of the person and the Sikh has lost the Guru's teaching in that moment. We all have a lot of fixing to be done. No one is higher than others.

When a husband and wife feel the urge to commit such acts, then in that moment if both sit down and start doing Naam Simran (start reading Gurbani or start doing Vaehguru simran together), then all such state of mind (the mind which is full of kaam), where you have lost everything, will disappear. In that moment both will realize the true essence of Gurmat. As Satguru says, the eternal Kingdom will be acheived. Then they will understand what it means to sacrifice yourself to Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj thousands of times.

Dhan Dhan Dhan Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj.

[SinghSabha]

We are supposed to control kaam, and not let it control us.

Raag Aasaa, Pannaa 418

Some control their sexual energy and are known as celibates, but without the Guru's word, they are not saved and they wander in reincarnation II6II

Indulge in lust with your spouse but do not let it control your life. Remaining celibate will not bring you closer to God. Neither will engaging in wanton sexual activities. It takes discipline to find balance in one's life. It is easier to drift to either extreme.

[Only five]

We are supposed to control kaam, and not let it control us.

Raag Aasaa, Pannaa 418

Some control their sexual energy and are known as celibates, but without the Guru's word, they are not saved and they wander in reincarnation II6II

Indulge in lust with your spouse but do not let it control your life. Remaining celibate will not bring you closer to God. Neither will engaging in wanton sexual activities. It takes discipline to find balance in one's life. It is easier to drift to either extreme.

Celibate is where the person gives up the householders lifestyle (decides not to procreate AND lives to avoid the worldly duties or completely abondons them) Also when maya pulls the Sikh in many directions and the Sikh runs to Maharaj's feet, by doing Naam Simran. Then that is not called to control sexual energy. Its called submitting to Satguru. In Gurmat the idea is never to control kaam, how can you? Also Gurmat is not without Shabad Guru (without Guru's word). The Sikh that is pulled in many directions by maya, goes to Shabad Guru to keep the remembrance of Satguru as the breath of life. The idea is to remember Satguru and by doing so, kaam will not touch us or any other vice will not come near us. and the messenger of death knows he will not come out alive if he comes near us. Satguru has never told us either in spoken form or written (Gurbani) to indulge in kaam in any kind of way.

Actually those that say go and indulge in kaam are saying we can control kaam because we won't over indulge in it. We will keep it to a limit. In other words, the ego has taken over. It's a dangerious game to let go of Satguru and say I can........

Infact many of the problems among Sikh youth, where Bibian or Singhs start indulging in manmat actions, like cut hair, start flirting amongst each other, attend manmat places, let go of rehat is because they get into the process of finding a partner; kaam has taken over. The idea is stuck in their head after getting married they can indulge in kaam, so they want to get there fast as they can. They look at marriage as an excuse here; the free get out of jail( its not jail, but at the time the mind thinks not indulging in kaam is jail) pass. This way of thinking needs to be abandoned. It's causing more problems among Sikh youth, further causing confusion and misleading them and setting them up for failure.

Naam Simran is everything.

[SinghSabha]

You make good points brother, but why is Kaam a part of our psyche? Why has Akal Purakh instilled this in us? If it is wrong to indulge, then why tempt us? Isn't it an expression of love for your spouse?

I am doubtful that one can abstain from Kaam outside of procreation. How can you keep sanity otherwise? When you do your banis everyday, your thoughts will be preoccupied with kaam. You won't be able to focus on daily tasks. What about masturbation? Isn't that indulging in kaam also?

Sorry for being blunt, but I don't know of any other way to put it.

[KhalistaniGunMan]

can we classify making love to your wife/husband as lust?...as a matter of fact what is lust?..obcessive sexual desire or adultery or both or neither?...if their is no intimacy in a relationship...it will be weaker than with one where there is...just recently i had a conversation with a singh and the topic of sex in marriage came up...he came up with the arguement that the sexual organs are like muscles ..both need to be maintained and exercised...he put his views so eloquently i could not answer and could not help agreingg with him...before this i belived sex for procreation only..but now i believe there should be a certain level of intimacy between partners..it helps strengthen a bond between husband and wife

[Only five]

You make good points brother, but why is Kaam a part of our psyche? Why has Akal Purakh instilled this in us? If it is wrong to indulge, then why tempt us? Isn't it an expression of love for your spouse?

Ego is the cause of kaam. If there was no ego in a person then there would be no kaam, attachment, greed, or anger. It all starts off with ego. Also kaam is in us for the same reason ego is in us. These energies are the driving forces and in this case they are negative driving forces. They push a person further away from Maharaj. Maharaj tells us to attach ourselves to Naam. Kaam can be taken and transformed into a positive energy. But inorder to achieve this virtious action, we need to attach ourselves to devotion of reading Gurbani and doing Naam Simran. When a Sikhs body is inflicted with kaam and the Sikh goes to Maharaj for help in that moment. Then Satguru will transform the kaam energy for him into a positive energy and the Sikh will be doing a Gurmat action (they will keep the remembrance of Maharaj on their tongue, in their mind, and in their heart). The same energy can be directed into a Gurmat action or manmat action, depending on who we serve in the moment. If we serve the ego in the moment, then the mind has created a excuse for us to indulge in kaam and we have left Satguru's way of life. If for the sake of spouse we indulge in kaam today, then what kind of love is this. Gurbani tells us kaam takes a person further away from Maharaj and brings more pains in life. If we truly love our spouse, would we not want to help them out of kaam and into Satguru's grace. Love is a concept we mortals do not understand. We attached love to things that will disappear in an moments notice. Bhagat Kabir ji Maharaj explains love in a very direct and thrusting manner, when in Gurbani we read the shabad; whoever dies, let him die such a death, that he does not have to die again. When spouse passes away, will you not go searching for another spouse? If a Sikh gets so attached to their spouse that they can't live without them for the rest of their lives even after death, is that not attachment to worldly event? Satguru in his Ninth form tells us that spouse will pass away everyone else will pass away, but one who will not come or go is Satguru, so attach yourself to him only and you will recieve the reward. Satguru in his Ninth form also told Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj, that he should love his wife and not even have the thought of another women in his dream. Before we follow this Bani of Maharaj, we must understand what it means to love the spouse. For this we need to do a lot of Naam Simran, whenever husband and wife have kaam come over them.

I am doubtful that one can abstain from Kaam outside of procreation. How can you keep sanity otherwise? When you do your banis everyday, your thoughts will be preoccupied with kaam. You won't be able to focus on daily tasks. What about masturbation? Isn't that indulging in kaam also?

Sorry for being blunt, but I don't know of any other way to put it.

It all matters on who you serve? Sanity is only present in the hearts who have Gurmat as their main objective of life and are not stuck in duality (in practice they don't go in and out of Gurmat and manmat). No anxiety inflicts the person who remembers Satguru in every moment and who runs to Satguru when kaam tries to take over the mind. If a person is trying to control kaam then the mind will be preoccupied with kaam. However Gurmat tells us not to control. Here, I'll take myself for example. My mind whenever attacked by kaam or other vices, i don't supress it or indulge in it. If i can access Gurbani quickly i will start reading Gurbani, but say it's not possible to access Gurbani at the time. Then I have shabads, which i have almost memorized and i run to repeat the Shabads in my mind. If at the time I can't remember Shabads, then I start doing simran on Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj or repeat over and over Sri Mool Mantar Sahib. As soon as i focus my attention on one of the above, then all vices that come to attack the mind, have run away and in that moment, I thank Satguru thousands of times (which brings the ego down). However if I don't focus on Satguru in that moment, then kaam will run away, but the ego is still present and the ego can bring the same feeling of kaam back, where it can destroy you. Hence why Satguru tells us to focus on Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj 24/7.

[Only five]

can we classify making love to your wife/husband as lust?...as a matter of fact what is lust?..obcessive sexual desire or adultery or both or neither?...if their is no intimacy in a relationship...it will be weaker than with one where there is...just recently i had a conversation with a singh and the topic of sex in marriage came up...he came up with the arguement that the sexual organs are like muscles ..both need to be maintained and exercised...he put his views so eloquently i could not answer and could not help agreingg with him...before this i belived sex for procreation only..but now i believe there should be a certain level of intimacy between partners..it helps strengthen a bond between husband and wife

To this Sri Sukhmani Sahib da paat has answered as such:

ieMdRI ijq pMc doK qy rhq ]

(274-6, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

indree jit panch dokh tay rahat.

who conquers his sexual instincts and is free of the five sinful passions

nwnk koit mDy ko AYsw Aprs ]1]

(274-6, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

naanak kot maDhay ko aisaa apras. ||1||

- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1|| ang 274

A Sikh's marriage depends on Naam Simran, there is not a stronger force in the world or the universe that a couple can depend on to keep their relationship strong. Satguru in the above says to conquer(do Naam Simran when they attack) sexual instinct and get rid of Kaam; attach yourself to Satguru. Love is much greater than something that will fade once one spouse passes away and the other goes searching for another.