Four Of The 5 Pyaaray Were Not Punjabi

[UKLondonSikh]

Well, no. In this day and age if you really want to enter into prachaar and vichaar seva for the benefit of Sikhi you will WANT to take amrit.

>>Yep Paji ... i agree with you on that (to a degree) ... but if that limits the number of prachaariks and pretty much excludes Tamil Sikhs or Sindhi Sikhs as two examples ... where does that get us?

It will show committment and dedication.

>>True

If not, then what exactly are you (the educator) wishing people will learn if he / she hasn't taken that step themselves?

>>I think that the spiritual message to get someone to Sehajdhari first is important ... as a pre-cursor to Khalsa Sant-Sipahi. In the context of mentors I absolutely believe that Sehajdhari can still make good mentors to Sehajdhari kids.

Let's not get the Khalsa Fauj confused with a general, all-encompassing "Sikh Fauj" of which every Sikh - keshdhari or not - should feel they belong to. The Khalsa Fauj will always be the benchmark and something to aspire to.

>>Yep I know what you mean Paji ... but I kind of had in mind a global conscription system for all countries to feed soldiers into a UN peacekeeping force ... of which I had imagined Sikhs as a whole would comprise 0.5% of volunteers and asli Khalsay an even smaller percentage ... for example to have stopped genocides like Rwanda + DR Congo in recent history which were way worse in numerical terms than our own recent ghallughara in 1984.

To bypass and dismiss Gursikhi just because it isn't truly present within everyone who takes Amrit defeats the whole purpose of being a baptised Sikh.

>>The more true Gursikhs the better Paji ... but Kesdhari Sikhs drinking + doing the rest of the things that Sikhi prohibits simply weakens the Khalsa image as a whole (though not the Khalsa ideal). And I just don't see all future growth in non-Punjabi Sikh numbers as coming from full GurSikhs ... i anticipate that the best we could hope for is 95% sehajdhari's which would still give a greater pool for new true committed Khalsay to emerge from.

In that case nobody should ever bother taking Amrit because not many will ever live up to the ideals a Gursikh should subscribe to!

>>I definitely don't think there's any point a person taking Amrit if they simply don't believe in what Khalsa's are meant to be about deep within their heart or never intend to abide by the disciplined lifestyle they are expected to commit to.

That's clearly not the way to go.

>>When it comes to true Khalsay who are an inspiration, Paji, i honestly think "less" could be "more" if you see my point?

[UKLondonSikh]

All the time - but especially so at Vasakhi - we as a Panth need to communicate facts like the geographic origin of our Panj Pyaaray as widely as possible. Too many of our own community don't realise these and allow themselves to pigeon-hole Sikhi to Majha and Malwa only (since Doaba is a Hindu majority region since Indira + her casteist Jatt Congress became aggressive in funding the growth of Dera Ballan and the Balmiki Sabha's there in order to destroy the ethos of saanjhay Gurdwaray). I'm not from the AKJ and nor do I always agree with them but we should commend them for looking to help the poor outside of Punjab as they notably did in Madhya Pradesh recently.

[sat]

On Vasakhi 1699 after the first two Khalsay had stood up ... Guru Gobind Singh Ji (the sixth Khalsa) gave three more calls. Mohkam Chand, a Gujarati calico printer/tailor from DwarkaNagar, Himmat Rai, a water-bearer from Jagannath Puri in Orissa, and Sahib Shah, a barber from Bidar (south India), stood up one after another and advanced to offer their heads.

... a minority of the wider Punjabi community is Sikh ... most Punjabi's are Muslims and there are more Hindi speaking "Punjabi's" in the historic parts of pre-1966 Punjab.

So we as Sikhs need to fight back against this nonsense portraying Sikhs as the equivalent of Punjabi's as they seek to limit the truth to a small part of Punjab only.

Even the Muslim Jatts that killed 300,000 Sikhs in 1947 and the Hindu Jatts like Sajjan Kumar laugh at the ridiculousness of some Sikhs associating an ancestry with their name as a mark of pride given the fact that even the vast majority of Jatts are Muslim and Hindu ...

So again we as Sikhs need to fight against our Panth being associated with any particular ancestry backgrounds (because that's exactly what our enemies want)

So let's be clear anybody in 2012 who proclaims their ancestry background from the rooftops is not a Sikh and Punjabiyat has no relavance to Sikhi. Anybody into Bhangra please tell your favourite artists that you will not buy their records if they continue to promote alcohol + caste on behalf of a Muslim record label like Moviebox.

Sikhi is falsely portrayed by the Panth's enemies and for the record let me state that i think a billion or so Hindu's are generally good people (the 800 million or so Hindu's who live in poverty I consider as Sikh in my eyes anyway ... before someone misinterprets my stab at the Panth's enemies)

Good point, but dont forget the first one Bhai Daya Singh ji was from lahore and punjab, but sikhs were all over india.

[UKLondonSikh]

Yeah Paji at least we Punjabi's had one Gursikh amongst the Panj Pyaaray ... can you imagine what it would have said about us Punjabi's if all of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi ... but then again I suppose the fact that 200 years ago at the start of the 19th Century a staggering 95% of Punjabi's were Muslims and Hindu's says a lot. Even as recently as1947, we were only 13% of the Punjabi population so Punjab definitely is not the future of Sikhi despite it being the historic cradle.

[rrss]

We sikhs need to discuss and explore this topic further, discussion is good, it will break down barriers and generate awareness. It may not be comfortable to discuss, especially if one is punjabi, but the truth is that sikhi is for all of humanity, it is not exclusively owned and controlled by ethnic Punjabis or even south Asians for that matter. Historically, guru sahiban have spread God's message throughout the lands, as far as Mecca and perhaps Rome and Tibet. The fact that 80% of panj piare were non Punjabis underlines this even further. Only in relatively recent times (beginning Ranjit Singh rule and culminating in division of Indian states on language lines) has there been strong association between punjabi ethnicity and sikh identity. To non punjabi sikhs it is embarrassing and slightly ridiculous that we are labelled as punjabi or for some, Asian. The label if one must be applied, should be sikh of guru granth sahib ji, without borders and ethnic or even national identity. Labels are primary a punjabi problem. It seems that there is some false pride associated with ethnicity (and caste). In comparison Most non Punjabis feel insulted if they are labelled by ethnicity rather than religion (please stop using 'gora' and 'kala'- very offensive). Most Non Punjabis work very hard to learn new language, especially to be able to contemplate on shabad, but what's the harm in using native language as an every day language especially for prayer services? Diversity is creation of god, let us have unity in diversity! Diversity is what will keep sikhi alive. We can see the affects of punjabiasation of sikhi- youth in punjab are losing religion fast but if sikhi was everywhere and for everyone, positive forces of diverse influence may strengthen the kaum as a whole.

There are many issues and many consequences to be discussed and contemplated by the sangat. There is fierce resistance in some circles to the non punjabi sikh movement (not referring to 3ho) because they largely do not conform to the prevailing party line (rejecting rituals, desiring strong rehit especially women wanting to wear full bana and be granthis etc, wanting gurdwaras in their country to speak the native language, wanting their gurdwara to focus on worldwide humanitarian issues, wanting outreach /missionary programmes to spread guru jis message everywhere, giving dhan shabad guru ji great reverence, etc, to name a few examples of differences in thinking).

To contemplate:

Are sikhs ready to declare open shop and quench the thirst for spirituality in the world? Is the sikh kaum ready to label themselves as sikh first and ethnicity/nationality second? Punjabis have a big caste problem. Unless that is solved, how can we expect them to let go of ethnicity or even nationality?

Is the Sikh kaum prepared to have large numbers of white black (including south Indians who many Punjabis see as black) and yellow sikhs around the world? Are Punjabis ready to marry and mix interracially based on religious values as the priority? Are Punjabis ready to add new takht outside india to represent interests? Will sgpc and akal takht break its focus with punjab state politics and refocus on religion?

Are sikhs ready to serve and protect those suffering outside punjab? Many problems ongoing in the world- from children being raped in Syria, to dying of starvation in madhya pradesh to extermination of gypsies across Europe to threat of world war 3 because of USA/Korea. These are very much issues for akaal purakh ka fauj to solve (peacefully as far as possible).

We need to grow up as a religion. Guru sahiban have paved the way. Many issues to be contemplated and discussed. Please forgive me if you feel insulted if i have over generalised about Punjabis, but truth is sometimes harsh.

[rrss]

Adding to the unity in diversity point: another problem with punjabiasation of sikhi is the sehajdhari problem. Less than 10% of punjabi sikhs are amritdhari whereas 90% of non Indian sikhs are amritdhari. Sehajdhari concept has a role to play but it has become the norm to be lifelong sehajdhari (many with cut hair), and punjabi ethnicity or even being brown skinned seems like an automatic entitlement to anand karaj etc. I'm we all recognise that taking gurus amrit is the solution to the rot. Diversity will strengthen sikhi kaum through interactions and strengthening of sikhi religiously.

[singher23]

Yeah its important to realize this and recognize Sikh does not equal Punjabi. Guru Gobind Singh ji was born in Bihar and died in Maharashtra, and a lot of his writing were in Braj Bhasha, not Punjabi.

Punjabi culture does not equal Sikh way of life

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Sikhism is also termed as Punjabi nationalism by many.

Sikhism is also termed as Punjabi nationalism by many.

[JSinghnz]

Sikhism is also termed as Punjabi nationalism by many.

Sikhism is also termed as Punjabi nationalism by many.

These must be the views of narrow minded people who

do not have any understanding about Sikhism and that our religion is a

universal religion.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

These peoples are hindus and muslims.