Sikhs Movements And Sects (Website)

[13Mirch]

If we look at the mahapurakhs of that time and those who we think are mahapurakhs today and compare their jeevan with what this article says (e.g. Jhatka, 5K's), the truth of this article can be established greatly. Ratan Singh Bhangu was before the Singh Sabha movement what about his works?

[SunSingh]

if the sikh roop was essentially created by the singh sabha movement then the hindus who adopted that roop for worldly advantages during the sikh raj would neither have adopted that roop nor have abandoned it en masse when the raj fell.

[N30S1NGH]

Very Good Point SunSingh veer.

[Bijla Singh]

Barinderpal Singh, you need to study Singh Sabha movement first before posting any articles against it. Singh Sabha was a revival not a reform movement as is being claimed by today’s Hindu influenced nirmalay, udasis etc. The udasi mahants went far away from Gurmat and fell under the spell of Hinduism and backed by the British started mismanaging Gurdwaras. Their misdeeds and misconduct at Darbar Sahib were appalling, shameful, despicable and disgusting. Their behavior was not just unreligious but also unethical and immoral. Sikh religion was on the verge of extinction and was being challenged by Hindus, Muslims and Christians yet no samparda came forward to refute any one of them. It was only Singh Sabha that came to the rescue and awakened the Panth which led to all the freedom movements like Gadar, Babbar Akali and Gurdwara Reform. Sikhs identity was not created but reestablished. Guru Sahib created one Panth with one distinct identity. He did not introduce varied contradictory teachings or sects in Gurmat. The Nirmal Panth has stayed the same throughout history. Doctrine, philosophy, way of life and conduct has stayed the same. Udasis and Nirmalas changed their own ways and went astray over time to the point that instead of reforming themselves and coming back to Gurmat are calling themselves “pure”. Bhai Gurdas Ji has rejected Six Hindu Schools in his Vaars yet today’s Nirmalas keep beating the dead horse in a futile attempt to paint Gurmat with these dead, hollow and empty philosophies. Singh Sabha not only reformed Gurdwaras and established Sikh practices but also brought back Sikh ceremonies like Anand Karaj which then then Hindu influenced groups vehemently opposed. A closer look at Singh Sabha reveals the fact that it was never trusted by the British. On the contrary, it was udasi mahants and those opposed to Singh Sabha who were strongly supported by the British. Gurdarshan Singh Dhillon has done a lot of research of this time period and refuted all the misconceptions associated with Singh Sabha. Daljeet Singh has done commendable work in respect to the Sikh identity and its continuous aspect. Due to loss of Sikh Panth in last 30 years, anti-Gurmat and nefarious groups are rising again but once again one day they will be beaten back. Guru Rakha

[N30S1NGH]

Thanks Bijla Singh (is that your real name? Nevertheless, great alias), i will do further search..do you have any books for me?

You are little harsh on your assertions against udasi and nirmale. They were de-margalinized by akalis then. Ethas Damdami taksal mentions this as well as - sant hari singh randhawale below:

[N30S1NGH]

Also found on thread on ss regarding Dr Ambedakar and Sikhism - how they turned away by akalis

Post by chatanga:

proactive the main point was that Ambedkar was infulenced by the attitudes of the ruling akalis towards him .they realised after a word in ther ear from mahatma and like that the lower castes would take over the Sikh instituions and the higher castes would become a minority in thier religion, and so the akalis kinda cooled things off between themselves and ambedkar, so ambedkar got the feeling that again the akalis were putting thier personal ineterests andcastes aboove sikhi.

its really a shame tho that ambedkar looked at sikhi thru the akalis when he should have been looking to the like of Sant Sundar Singh and Sant Gurbachan Singh, Sant Ishar Singh , Baba Sahib Singh KalaDhari and all the other mahapursh who would have given a better picture of Sikhi.

Realising that even after conversion to sikhi would only marginaly raise the status of the dalits ambedkar went totaly opposite and embraced a religion that is very diiferent to sikhi- budism, even after he said the the Guru Granth Sahib is the key to God.

chatanga

[N30S1NGH]

Also please check below:

Itihas Damdami Taksal (Sankhep)

This book is an effort to bring out the history of Damdami Taksaal. The book says that Guru Amardas Ji appointed 22 ‘Manjis’ and 72 ‘Peerhaas’ to preach the Gurbani. Guru Arjan Dev Ji edited ‘Beerh Sahib’ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Baba Sri Chand started preaching the Gurmat. After Sri Chand, Baba Gurditta Ji was famous ‘Mahatma’ of Udasi sect. There were four disciples of Baba Gurditta Ji. Their names were ‘Baalu Hasna’, ‘Phoole Shah’, ‘Goyenda’ and ‘Almast’. They established four ‘Dhooney’ of Udasis. The four ‘Dhooney’ and six ‘Bakhsishaan’ are called ‘Das Naam Udasi’. All the Udasis belonging to these ‘Dhooney’ and ‘Bakhshishaan’ established hundred of ‘Deras’, ‘Akhaarhe’ and centers. During the hard days of Mughal rule, Udasis, Nirmalas and Seva Panthis continued to preach Sikhi. The book tells that many chiefs of Sikh ‘Misals’ adopted Sikhi under influence of Udasi, Nirmalas and Sevapanthis.

During the ‘Singh Sabha Movement’, Udasis and Nirmalas established idols of Sri Chand and removed Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or they installed other books of Hindu religious books along with Guru Granth Sahib, so that their ‘deras’ could not be taken over under new Gurdwara Act. The book says that Udasis used not to cut their hair/beard, but frightened by Singh Sabha movement, now ‘Jataa-dhari’, ‘Mundit’, ‘Bhasmadhari’, ‘Nange’ and those, who wear russet clothes, can be seen.

According to the book, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Budhha Ji used to do the ‘katha’ of Gurbani. During the time period of Guru Hargobind Sahib to Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib, Sikh-scholars used to ‘Katha’. When Guru Gobind Singh came to ‘Sabo Ki Talwandi’, Guru Ji sent Baba Deep Singh alongwith 25 Singhs to Dheer Mal to bring the ‘Gurbani Beerh’, which was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Dheer Mal refused to do so.

The writer is mistaken here. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji arrived Sabo Ki Talwandi, Dheer Mal was not alive at that time. He had been died, so it is wrong to say that he refused to give the Gurbani ‘Pothi’.

The book says that Guru Gobind Singh Ji started to recite the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Bhai Mani Singh ji had been writing it. In the morning, Guru Ji used to recite Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Bhai Mani would write it. In the evening Guru Ji would teach its meanings to 48 Singhs. From ‘Kattak Sudi Pooranmaasi’, Sambat 1762 Bikrami to 23 ‘Saavan’, 1763 Bikrami, in 9 months and 9 days, Guru Ji completed the work.

According to the book, Bhai Mani Singh started the ‘Taksal’ at Sri Amritsar and Baba Deep Singh Ji started it at Damdama Sahib. The names of 48 Singhs, who were educated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Sabo Ki Talwandi, have been given in this book.

Then, the brief biographies have been given of Taksal-chiefs. Baba Deep Singh Ji was the first chief of Damdami Taksal. It is written in this book that when Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave ‘Guruship’ to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji was doing the ‘Chaur’ over Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Baba Deep Singh Ji, Bhai Dharam Singh Ji, Bhai Hari Singh Ji, Bhai Santokh Singh Ji Bhai Gurbaksh Singh were present there as ‘Panj Piyare’.

The writer did not quote to any of old Guru-history books to prove his statement that Baba Deep Singh Ji was present there in Sri Hazoor Sahib, Nanded, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji left for his heavenly abode. Instead, he quoted to ‘Sri Gurmukh Parkash’, written by Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa (Bhindran wale), who himself was the chief of Damdami Taksal (Jatha Bhindran). It is not an old book.

The book says that Baba Deep Singh helped Baba Banda Singh Bahadur in every battle and movement. When Baba Banda Singh Bahadur came to Anandpur Sahib, Baba Deep Singh stayed with him for three months. Baba Banda Singh was impressed to listen the ‘Katha’ by Baba Deep Singh. Here again, the writer did not give reference to any of old books.

According to the book, after the death of Divan Darbara Singh, in 1734 AD Tarna Dal and Budhha Dal were organized. Tarna Dal was divided in five groups. One of these groups was headed by Baba Deep Singh. There were 2,000 horsemen in his group.

When Jahan Khan filled up the ’sarovar’ of Sri Amritsar Sahib, Baba Deep Singh came forward to rescue. In a battle, Baba Deep Singh’s head was cut off. He put his cut head on his palm and continued to fight. Bhai Mahit Singh and Baba Naudh Singh also fought there without heads.

Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji was the second chief of Damdami Taksal. He was son of Bhai Dasaunda Singh and Mother Lachhmi Ji of village ‘Leel’, near Khemkaram, Distt. Amritsar. According to this book, the ‘Janamsakhi Giyan Ratnaavali’ was recited by Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji and was written by Bhai Surat Singh. During Abdali’s invasion, Amritsar was attacked. Baba Gurbaksh Singh was martyred in the battlefield. Baba Gurbaksh Singh’s head was cut off. He started to fight without his head.

The writer says that after the martyrdom of Bhai Mani Singh, the ‘Katha’ in Sri Harmandir Sahib was stopped, which was restarted by Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji. The people used to call him ‘Nihang Singh’.

Giani Bhai Surat Singh was the next chief. He belonged to village ‘Chann-kot’, Distt. Jhang (Pakistan). He wrote the ‘teeka’ of first ‘Vaar’ of Bhai Gurdas Ji. Bhai Surat Singh took over the control of Sri Harmandir Sahib in 1765 AD. He used to do ‘Katha’ in Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Born in Sambat 1825 Bikrami, Bhai Gurdas Singh Ji was the next chief of Damdami Taksal, according to this book. He was elder son of Bhai Surat Singh Ji.

After the death of Bhai Gurdas Singh Ji, his younger brother Bhai Sant Singh became the next chief of Damdami Taksal. The writer says that Bhai Sant Singh was the teacher of great poet Bhai Santokh Singh Ji and poet Megh Singh Ji. Bhai Sant Singh Ji expired on ‘Haarh Sudi’ 8, Samvat 1889 Bikrami.

Sant Dya Singh Ji was the next chief. After his death, Sant Giani Bhagwan Singh became the chief. The writer says that Sant Bhagwan Singh accepted 14 ‘Gupt Avtaars’. These are the 14 ‘Gupt Avtaars’: -

Baba Sri Chand Ji Baba Lakhmi Chand Ji Baba Mohari Ji Baba Mohan Ji Baba Anand bhagat Ji Baba Gurditta Ji Baba Sooraj Mal Ji Baba Ani Rai Ji Baba Atal Rai Ji Sahibzada Ajit Singh Ji Sahibzada Jujhar Singh Ji Sahibzada Zorawar Singh Ji Sahibzada Fateh Singh Ji Ramrai Ji Sant Harnam Singh Bedi was the next (9th) chief of Damdami Taksal, who was succeeded by Sant Bishan Singh Muraale wale. Sant Bishan Singh expired on ‘Maagh’ 15, 1962 Bikrami. Sant Sundar Singh Bhindrawale was the next chief of Damdami Taksal, who was born in 1883 AD (1940 Bikrami Samvat) in village Bhindar Kalaan, Distt. Firozpur. Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale, who was born on February 12, 1902, succeeded Sant Sundar Singh.

The biography of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale in this book has been written by Sant Kartar Singh Bhindrawale. It is the longest part of this book.

The next chief of Damdami Taksal was Sant Kartar Singh Bhindrawale, according to this book. He died on August 16, 1977 AD. He was succeeded by Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa (Bhindrawale).

Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa was born in 1947 AD in village ‘Rode’, Distt. Faridkot. This book tells about his role during ‘Nirankari and Sikhs dispute’ in Amritsar, Nirankari-chief Murder case, Lala Jagat Narayan Murder case, ‘Akali Morcha’ etc. Interestingly, this book does not give any details of ‘Operation Blue Star’, which was a big episode of Sikh history. The writer says that Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa went to an un-told place after ‘Operation Blue Star’. The Damdami Taksal's Jathedar has maintained for years that Sant Bindranwale was not dead.

Brief biography of Sant Baba Thakur Singh Ji has also been given in this book, who is acting chief of Damdami Taksal. A brief description of Gurdwara Gurdarshan Prakash, Mehta has been given on last pages.

[N30S1NGH]

Also veer Bijla Singh forgot to mention It's very easy to reject nirmale- call them hindu influence or calling them bhraminvaad or calling them vedantis etc.

I find it quite hard to believe that seena-basina lineages of mahapursh from damdami taksal, scholary tradition of nirmale (bhai dya singh and bhai dharam singh samparda) and sevapanthis coming from guru's time all got "gurmat sidhant" all wrong and somehow it was only after singh sabha the only real interpretation of "gurmat sidhant' came from sky.

Gurmat relationship with advait/vaishnavism/shaivism/sufism is quite complex its explained fully in Bhavrasamrit and Vivek Pardapika by theologian tirath singh nirmala (proffesor in one of university in England), its written in english..books was released after years of studying..its an excellent piece of work. I strongly urge readers to read it and come up with your conculstions, the way its explained its not pulled out of thin air, its pretty consistent with all previous scholars from nirmale, sevapanthis, gyanis from taksal. I have no desire to have any full fledge debates or discussion on this matter as it sway me away from naam simran/self reflection. Tat nichor of Gurmat already bought forward in these book-Bhavrasamrit, Vivek Pardapika. If akalis like to they should provide supplement in scholarly form. There is no point discussing fine underlining issue of defining Gurmat theology over the forum. All though it's pretty well defined already by damdami taksal, they have even given everyone syllabus in the bhram vidya thread...!!

Anyway, here is the link for the book:

http://nectpublicati...om/products.htm

[Bijla Singh]

globalsikhstudies.net has good books written by different scholars on Sikh way of life. Another book “Sikhism: Its Philosophy and History” is a good one. I can send it to you in pdf if you provide me with your email. I don’t think my criticism of udasis and nirmalas is harsh. It is the reality. Udasis mismanaged the Gurdwaras and they were the ones to install idols in Gurdwaras and Darbar Sahib in the first place. They mistreated Sikhs and Sikh women but licked the feet of British officials.

Udasis and Nirmalas made good contribution in the beginning but after 1849 they wandered off to Hinduism signs of which were apparent in late 18^th century. Nirmala works is heavily Vedantic and Udasis were slacking in Sikh of life during the Misal period. This is why Gopal Das was replaced with Chanchal Singh as the head Granthi of Darbar Sahib.

Singh Sabha pretty much died after 1902 when Giani Ditt Singh died but it inspired Sikhs to take control over its Gurdwaras and those inspired Sikhs lead by Kartar Singh Jhabbar were greatly against the caste system being advocated by udasi mahants. Udasis refused to do Ardaas of so-called low caste at Darbar Sahib and their Karah Parshaad was refused. So it was not the Singh Sabha but udasis who were proponents of the caste system. Akali Party’s uneducated leaders had political motives behind pushing dalits away and it is an unforgivable mistake but it had no ties with the Singh Sabha. Many Sikhs wanted dalits to become Sikhs but Tara Singh and his cohorts did not. Kapoor Singh’s book Sachi Sakhi testifies to it. All in all, udasis had religious reasons (Hinduism) and Akali Party had political reasons (staying in power) for pushing dalits away. Both were wrong but neither was influenced by or related to Singh Sabha.

Udasis and Nirmalas of today are trying to change history in an attempt to regain their foothold over uneducated Sikh masses. They are forgetting the fact that no separate way of life was ever prescribed to them by Guru Sahib. They were supposed to be missionary wings of Gurmat as Guru Sahib intended but in hard struggle of 18^th century they showed weakness and lost touch of Gurmat. Baba Gurditta was a practicing Sikh and the 6^th Guru appointed His own Sikhs to run the udasi group which proves that the group was handed over by Baba Sri Chand not the other way around. Guru Sahib reorganizing udasi group and instructing it to manage the Gurdwaras is a clear sign that udasis were proper Sikhs not recluses like today. Nirmalas were taught by Guru Sahib Himself and these learned Sikhs were sent to Hindu pilgrimage places where great debates on philosophical topics were held to propagate Gurmat. All Sikhs sent to Benaras were Sikhs and Amritdharis. Their last name was Singh. They had great knowledge of Hindu philosophies and they could not only beat Hindu scholars but also show superiority of Gurmat and bring in converts but eventually they themselves fell under the illusion of Vedanta and declared it a pre-requisite to understand Gurbani. The claim is ridiculous as it requires a man-made philosophy to be understood before studying divine revealed Gurbani. It destroys Gurbani’s independence, distinctiveness and uniqueness. Gurbani’s message is universal and revealed and its basis or source is God Himself. One wearing glasses of Vedanta will never understand the essence of Gurbani.

Singh Sabha movement was not a struggle against foreign power but against inside groups that had gone off to the other side and turned hostile to Gurmat principles. Mahants who asked for forgiveness and reformed themselves were reappointed in Gurdwaras but many others filed lawsuits and took control over property and land of Gurdwaras. So much for being “udasi”. This again shows they had British backing.

Darbar Sahib has always been open to all and it was due to Singh Sabha that dalits and so-called low caste were allowed to visit it. During udasi control, number of visitors even from the Sikh community had decreased considerably and Hindu priests took over the surrounding bazars and installed idols in parkarma. Some ascetics sitting in parkarma does not prove that it is a pre-Singh Sabha picture. It also does not prove that they were stopped after SGCP took over. In fact, it was common to see even Buddhists visit from Tibet every year until political unrest in Punjab. And everyone knows who was primarily behind the Dharam Yudh Morcha. During this time period, Hindus, Buddhists and other religious people stopped visiting Darbar Sahib. Why isn’t Taksal criticized over this and termed “knee <banned word filter activated>”? In any case, if it wasn’t for Singh Sabha, the Sikh identity would’ve been overpowered by Hindus. It brought back the Sikh identity, regained control over Gurdwaras, right to wear Kirpan and Anand Karaj to name a few and for every right it had to fight the British and the Hindus.

I find it quite hard to believe that seena-basina lineages of mahapursh from damdami taksal, scholary tradition of nirmale (bhai dya singh and bhai dharam singh samparda) and sevapanthis coming from guru's time all got "gurmat sidhant" all wrong and somehow it was only after singh sabha the only real interpretation of "gurmat sidhant' came from sky.

It is your belief that Guru Sahib directly taught them and they have stayed the same over the course of history. I do not believe that nor is it probable. If Guru Sahib had taught them then they would’ve known Gurbani grammar. You have not studied any post-Singh Sabha literature to understand uniqueness of Gurmat. I don’t claim that all sampardas are wrong but it is definitely wrong to assert that everything they believe or state is correct. If Gurbani teaches nothing but Vedanta then what was the need to reveal Gurbani? Vedanta is contradictory to Gurmat. Again, please study some Gurmat first and study Gurbani with unbiased mind. Every group has something positive to offer but to state that it is never wrong just because it is very old is an empty claim. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha’s father was Niranjan Singh who studied from sampardas and Bhai Veer Singh also studied from his grandfather prior to Singh Sabha. This means sampardas had varied viewpoints and understanding of Gurmat. They differed on Gurbani interpretation. On the one hand, sampardas strongly assert that Gurbani has no limits and has multiple meanings but on the other hand are so averse to Singh Sabha interpretation. Why? Guru Rakha

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I don’t think my criticism of udasis and nirmalas is harsh. It is the reality. Udasis mismanaged the Gurdwaras and they were the ones to install idols in Gurdwaras and Darbar Sahib in the first place.

There are bad apples in every jatha or samparda. As sant hari singh randhawale pointed out in the video, just because of few bad apples in udhasi, whole udhasi samparda were pushed to the corner. They intially had sri guru granth sahib ji in their dera but as stated above Singh Sabha Movement’, Udasis and Nirmalas established idols of Sri Chand and removed Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or they installed other books of Hindu religious books along with Guru Granth Sahib, so that their ‘deras’ could not be taken over under new Gurdwara Act. The book says that Udasis used not to cut their hair/beard, but frightened by Singh Sabha movement

But obviously things are much better now in India- you will see in the video how young udasi while keeping udhasi traditions alive took amrit.

They mistreated Sikhs and Sikh women but licked the feet of British officials.

Same thing could be said of singh sabha. In fact if you speak to elder nihang singhs, they will tell you - the whole idea of sikhs are hindus was planted by british within sikh circle so that they can divide and rule- invoked parnioa/hysteria in the panth to further divide and conquer..British did so because of they were afraid of Nihangs wanted to destroy them. This was very interesting observation which people need to research further.

Udasis and Nirmalas made good contribution in the beginning but after 1849 they wandered off to Hinduism signs of which were apparent in late 18th century. Nirmala works is heavily Vedantic and Udasis were slacking in Sikh of life during the Misal period. This is why Gopal Das was replaced with Chanchal Singh as the head Granthi of Darbar Sahib.

Singh Sabha pretty much died after 1902 when Giani Ditt Singh died but it inspired Sikhs to take control over its Gurdwaras and those inspired Sikhs lead by Kartar Singh Jhabbar were greatly against the caste system being advocated by udasi mahants. Udasis refused to do Ardaas of so-called low caste at Darbar Sahib and their Karah Parshaad was refused. So it was not the Singh Sabha but udasis who were proponents of the caste system. Akali Party’s uneducated leaders had political motives behind pushing dalits away and it is an unforgivable mistake but it had no ties with the Singh Sabha. Many Sikhs wanted dalits to become Sikhs but Tara Singh and his cohorts did not. Kapoor Singh’s book Sachi Sakhi testifies to it. All in all, udasis had religious reasons (Hinduism) and Akali Party had political reasons (staying in power) for pushing dalits away. Both were wrong but neither was influenced by or related to Singh Sabha.

I want to make this focus on nirmale only as i m not knowledable on udasi. I am sure sant hari singh randhawale and respected members like kam here, if someone is curious they can ask them.

Nirmalas made good contribution in the beginning but after 1849 they wandered off to Hinduism signs of which were apparent in late 18th century

Really? Thats new to me. I actually find their work pretty consistent throughout. Take the classic Bhāvrasāmrit work for example.It was composed by Nirmala Svāmī Pandit Gulāb Singh Jī in 1777. This is as puratan you can get as it was composed by pandit gulab singh ji in 1777.

Can you please post their work after 1849 so that we can compare with their classic bhavrsamrit in 1777 and see where this "transition of "them wandered off to hinduism" took place? Surely few differences of opnions within nirmale always been there (pandit tara singh narotam and others) but never to the point that upsamaprda among nirmale wandered off to hinduism.

On that note, anyone trying to understand the traditional Nirmala perspective should read- Maha Kavi Santokh Singh 'Garab Ganjni Tika of japji sahib which is tika on Japuji to humble the arrognace of Swami Anandghan Udasi's 'Gurbani Tike'.

Nirmala works is heavily Vedantic. They had great knowledge of Hindu philosophies and they could not only beat Hindu scholars but also show superiority of Gurmat and bring in converts but eventually they themselves fell under the illusion of Vedanta and declared it a pre-requisite to understand Gurbani. The claim is ridiculous as it requires a man-made philosophy to be understood before studying divine revealed Gurbani. It destroys Gurbani’s independence, distinctiveness and uniqueness. Gurbani’s message is universal and revealed and its basis or source is God Himself. One wearing glasses of Vedanta will never understand the essence of Gurbani..It destroys Gurbani’s independence, distinctiveness and uniqueness. Gurbani’s message is universal and revealed and its basis or source is God Himself. One wearing glasses of Vedanta will never understand the essence of Gurbani.

Your claim nirmale works in heavily vedantic is not entirely true.

Nirmale/Taksali beleive in Gurmat advait. Gurmat have its own form of advait. Nirmale beleive Gurmat is nyara compare to raw vishanism, raw advait vedant. Nirmale beleive that in Gurmat the marriage is made between viahsanivsm(bhagti) and vedant(gyan), Shabad Surat. Shabad Surat, Gyan and Bhagti Marg are blended together in one. Gyan, Bhakti, Shabad surat marg are together in Gurmat not seperate because there are concept of bhagat, prem, seva,sargun, guru kirpa, karam, reincarnation, hell/heaven, hakum, raza, naam(shabad gyan), dasam dwara, bairaag, gyan (atma-paratma), nirgun all listed in Gurbani...how can we seperate them? They have not seperated them, they used gurbani sidhant (uniqueness, independence) as their foundation and framework to do parchar in very kumb mela, they have set up akhara there while most of us sit on internet, these guys actually go there in hindu kumb mela and showed them how gurmat is superior. You may want to go to nirmale panchyati akhara to clear all your doubts there.

One wearing glasses of Vedanta will never understand the essence of Gurbani..It destroys Gurbani’s independence, distinctiveness and uniqueness. Gurbani’s message is universal and revealed and its basis or source is God Himself. One wearing glasses of Vedanta will never understand the essence of Gurbani.

On a lighter note, nirmale/taksali don't wear glasses of vedanta all the time only when its needed to contextualize gurbani tuks which has terms mentioned below as this is where vikayaran take sahara vedant (atam gyan) i beleive bhai kahn singh nabha give references to vedant to explain terms(if someone can verify). Nirmale use vedant as a reference to further get understanding of concepts mentioned in Gurbani for Eg

Why the need for Vedant? Because Gurbani explicitly talks of the four fold antahkaran, the 4 avasthas, kaivalya mukhti, etc. When the Guru talks of the four states, what do you derive from that? How then do you interpret references to the 'body' being unveiled by the Guru? Which body? When he talks of the 'fourth' state in Sidh Gosht, what does that mean? What is the nature of jivan mukt? What are the forms of praman or valid knowledge for Gurmat? What about the guns? What is meant by going beyond the three gunas? How? What is meant when bhai Gurdas Ji talks of vasna? What is the real meaning of the term? What is the nature of the 'unseeing seeing'? etc, etc. This is where Vedant comes in. it is used to explain the basic structural model of human consciousness, its components and its interactions in Gurmat. From that you will notice other bits of Gurbani which before you read over mindlessly, now they ring out with new meaning. It is also used to explain the subtlest aspects of the highest experiences (not necessarily the initial process of rising vivek). How else can you explain the existence of the study of Vedant for the last 400 years of Sikh history by gursikhs (recall Bhai Gurdas studied in Kashi and is using Vedantic concepts in his Kabits) or Kavi Sukhdev's 'Adhyatam Prakash'?One initially without learning can reach such states, but I do not believe that the one who has a very high avastha reached through the path of Satiguru will contradict the concepts of Gurmat. Like the Guru says, through that experience they know the secrets of the Vedas, in otherwords through that experience they intuitively know that non-dual oneness. They will then find within Gurbani the language and concepts to explain that state. It goes without saying that knowing Adhyatam vidya and tasting it are different BUT they are inherently interrelated. As Pandit Tara Singh Narotam says, gyan of the 'mahavakyas' is essential to orient the bhakti for kaivalya mukhti. Without that gyan the bhakti gets waylaid. Where do we get this gyan of the 'mahavakyas' (i.e. formless non-duality) from? Gurbani, but again through the real understanding of the meaning of Gurbani.

Udasis and Nirmalas of today are trying to change history in an attempt to regain their foothold over uneducated Sikh masses. They are forgetting the fact that no separate way of life was ever prescribed to them by Guru Sahib.Baba Gurditta was a practicing Sikh and the 6th Guru appointed His own Sikhs to run the udasi group which proves that the group was handed over by Baba Sri Chand not the other way around. Guru Sahib reorganizing udasi group and instructing it to manage the Gurdwaras is a clear sign that udasis were proper Sikhs not recluses like today.

Not sure about udasi (you can ask sant hari singh randhawale as they have proof of udasi bana parvan by Guru sahiban) but nirmale are supposed to be amritdhari. Here is the video of sant davinder singh ji sheding some light on nirmale-

They were supposed to be missionary wings of Gurmat as Guru Sahib intended but in hard struggle of 18th century they showed weakness and lost touch of Gurmat.

What you talking about mate? Here are few shining examples of many examples- forgot about baba sahib singh bedi contribution ? sant karam singh ji hoti mardan contribution? sant attar singh ji muastanewale contribution, Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale how about sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale? Do you know how many people got into sikhi because of these karak bhramgyani sadhus?

But eventually they themselves fell under the illusion of Vedanta and declared it a pre-requisite to understand Gurbani. The claim is ridiculous as it requires a man-made philosophy to be understood before studying divine revealed Gurbani.

Off course its pre-requisite or an reference point to understand terms to understand some of terms in gurbani. Note i said - some. Vedant has gyan of bhram...whether you like it or not. It may not pre-requisite for people who only follow gurmat naam philosphy, shabad surat from gurbani and ignore everything else in gurbani especially advait (non duality), nirgun, guru-sant kirpa, sargun bhagti - nine types of bhagti towards sri guru granth sahib ji, gyan of atma-paratma.

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Darbar Sahib has always been open to all and it was due to Singh Sabha that dalits and so-called low caste were allowed to visit it. During udasi control, number of visitors even from the Sikh community had decreased considerably and Hindu priests took over the surrounding bazars and installed idols in parkarma. Some ascetics sitting in parkarma does not prove that it is a pre-Singh Sabha picture. It also does not prove that they were stopped after SGCP took over. In fact, it was common to see even Buddhists visit from Tibet every year until political unrest in Punjab. And everyone knows who was primarily behind the Dharam Yudh Morcha. During this time period, Hindus, Buddhists and other religious people stopped visiting Darbar Sahib. Why isn’t Taksal criticized over this and termed “knee j er k reaction In any case, if it wasn’t for Singh Sabha, the Sikh identity would’ve been overpowered by Hindus. It brought back the Sikh identity, regained control over Gurdwaras, right to wear Kirpan and Anand Karaj to name a few and for every right it had to fight the British and the Hindus. ///

I agree with you there. I need to do more research on this matter. In fact i know for fact caste discrimination was and still is pretty well alive and kicking pretty much every where in the panth with exception of akj. Everyone (every sampardra) is guilty of it including singh sabha i m afraid because singh sabha gurdwara still to this day have jatt committe members (how ironic)

//It is your belief that Guru Sahib directly taught them and they have stayed the same over the course of history. I do not believe that nor is it probable. If Guru Sahib had taught them then they would’ve known Gurbani grammar. You have not studied any post-Singh Sabha literature to understand uniqueness of Gurmat. I don’t claim that all sampardas are wrong but it is definitely wrong to assert that everything they believe or state is correct. If Gurbani teaches nothing but Vedanta then what was the need to reveal Gurbani? Vedanta is contradictory to Gurmat.

Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha’s father was Niranjan Singh who studied from sampardas and Bhai Veer Singh also studied from his grandfather prior to Singh Sabha. This means sampardas had varied viewpoints and understanding of Gurmat. They differed on Gurbani interpretation. On the one hand, sampardas strongly assert that Gurbani has no limits and has multiple meanings but on the other hand are so averse to Singh Sabha interpretation. Why? Guru Rakha //

Traditionally, everyone beleives allthough grammar is important, gurbani cannot be limited to grammar or bound by it. As soon as one avastha changes, according to surti the interpertation changes. Samparda are not not averse to singh sabha just setting an reminder gurbani cannot be bound by vikayaran only. It be pretty insulting to limit gurbani with grammar as you cannot measure anubhav parkash coming from gurbani by gurbani vikayaran. Such is the beauty of Gurbani.!

//Again, please study some Gurmat first and study Gurbani with unbiased mind. Every group has something positive to offer but to state that it is never wrong just because it is very old is an empty claim.//

Yes i truly beleive that. Hence, my post regarding diversity in the panth. How sri guru nanak dev nirankar have very beautiful garden all provide its uniqueness. I never said groups are never wrong.

If you guys need to research further on nirmale/sevapanthi thoughts on Gurmat Sidhant. Please purchase those two books listed in the link above - bhavrasamarit and vivek pardapika. They are in english. It will clear lot of misconception and misunderstanding.

Thanks everyone for listening to my rant..!!..yawning..gotta go sleep.!!