Jat Sikhs seek OBC status in Punjab

[DailyMail]

Sherdil,

Ok, I've gone back to re-read your post Sherdil. I admit, I initially did read it as your grandparents. Like you have already clarified, your grandparents were merely saying that "other jat folks did it", not themselves, so I apologise for saying it was another poster on here (although I didn't mention your name). However, I should have read it carefully, and fair is fair, I read it incorrectly. Sorry.

However, it doesn't actually detract from the very fact that it happens/happened, as you yourself acknowledged, which is the underlying point being made. Furthermore, I stand by everything else I said in the above post.

You say blame brahmins? Every brahmin I speak to is amused that a group of people who mock hinduism for establishing the caste system now practise it themselves and infact, those same brahmins struggle to recall a bollywood song bigging up brahimins yet songs 'bigging up jats' roll off their tongues as if it was saliva ten to the dozen. Can you see why even brahmins are now frustrated that they are still getting the blame? And even more bizarrely, whilst even they acknowledge that they are pioneers of the dreaded caste-system, even they (brahmins) are mystified why their ideology is mostly strongly propogated by those aren't even hindu!

Caste-based gurdwarae are wrong. But why did they spring up? Theres no point saying they are wrong, I mean so is cancer, but it still happens...why? What is the underlying reason? Maybe the youtube video showing the disgraceful treatment the mazhbis's receive will give some insight into why they would prefer to be treated with diginity and respect. If they, and others, feel the only way to achieve this is to set up a seperate gurdwara, then what am I to say to him? "No, you can't establish your own (insert any non-jatt caste name here) gurdwara, but you must continue to be treated as a second-class Sikh in a "one-for-all" gurdwara?".

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree with caste-based gurdwarae, nor do I attend one, but I know why they exist.

It's nice for you to say "fix yourselves first". Very nice indeed. But when the majority community are refusing to give up the caste-based prejudices, what chance has the guy from a 'smaller community'? Let me give you a clear example: when a guy asked what my surname was, I say "Singh", if he's jat he'll say "no, whats ur real surname? If you dont write it after ur name or u don't want to tell me, then it means you're not a jat and you're from a low-caste (his words) and therefore you're hiding something by not telling me what caste you're from!" Make no mistake, thats the mentality we are dealing with.

[Sherdil]

Sherdil,

Ok, I've gone back to re-read your post Sherdil. I admit, I initially did read it as your grandparents. Like you have already clarified, your grandparents were merely saying that "other jat folks did it", not themselves, so I apologise for saying it was another poster on here (although I didn't mention your name). However, I should have read it carefully, and fair is fair, I read it incorrectly. Sorry.

However, it doesn't actually detract from the very fact that it happens/happened, as you yourself acknowledged, which is the underlying point being made. Furthermore, I stand by everything else I said in the above post.

You say blame brahmins? Every brahmin I speak to is amused that a group of people who mock hinduism for establishing the caste system now practise it themselves and infact, those same brahmins struggle to recall a bollywood song bigging up brahimins yet songs 'bigging up jats' roll off their tongues as if it was saliva ten to the dozen. Can you see why even brahmins are now frustrated that they are still getting the blame? And even more bizarrely, whilst even they acknowledge that they are pioneers of the dreaded caste-system, even they (brahmins) are mystified why their ideology is mostly strongly propogated by those aren't even hindu!

Caste-based gurdwarae are wrong. But why did they spring up? Theres no point saying they are wrong, I mean so is cancer, but it still happens...why? What is the underlying reason? Maybe the youtube video showing the disgraceful treatment the mazhbis's receive will give some insight into why they would prefer to be treated with diginity and respect. If they, and others, feel the only way to achieve this is to set up a seperate gurdwara, then what am I to say to him? "No, you can't establish your own (insert any non-jatt caste name here) gurdwara, but you must continue to be treated as a second-class Sikh in a "one-for-all" gurdwara?".

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree with caste-based gurdwarae, nor do I attend one, but I know why they exist.

It's nice for you to say "fix yourselves first". Very nice indeed. But when the majority community are refusing to give up the caste-based prejudices, what chance has the guy from a 'smaller community'? Let me give you a clear example: when a guy asked what my surname was, I say "Singh", if he's jat he'll say "no, whats ur real surname? If you dont write it after ur name or u don't want to tell me, then it means you're not a jat and you're from a low-caste (his words) and therefore you're hiding something by not telling me what caste you're from!" Make no mistake, thats the mentality we are dealing with.

Brahmins still practice the caste system. In that same video (I believe there are multiple parts), a Hindu doctor is not treated with the same respect as his colleagues, or even his juniors, because he is from a lower caste. India has been run by the same Brahmin family since its inception. Let's see a Dalit become Prime Minister before we say Brahmins have washed their hands clean.

Those songs bigging up Jatts were never meant to turn into the gandh they are today. Putt Jattan De by Surinder Shinda is such an innocent song. He's not saying Jatts are better than anyone else. He was giving Jatts something to feel proud of. As if "Yeah I'm a son of a farmer, and I don't care what you think of it. This is who I am, if you don't like it then whatever. Bruah!"I don't listen to most of the nonsense that is passed off as Bhangra music today. I agree with Bobby Friction. CASTE SONGS SHOULD BE BANNED.

[Sherdil]

Sorry for multiple posts. My Internet connection is poor, as I'm currently traveling abroad.

It is wrong for Jatts to treat Mazbhis poorly in a gurdwara. But then why don't you guys invite them into your wn gurdwaras? You guys want nothing to do with them either. It is easy to bame just one group, but if all of the other castes joined together, they would outnumber Jatts by a lot.

Man, if a Jatt insists that you provide your caste name then give him a good slap. He is an <banned word filter activated>, but blaming all Jatts for the actions of a few idiots is wrong. That's like calling all blacks criminals or all orientals bad drivers.

I am a Jatt. I will not deny that. That is what my ancestors did. That does not make me better than you, nor does it make me less than you.

If you are a Sikh, then you are my brother and I got your back. That's all I'm gonna say.

[dalsingh101]

Nah, we haven't had his Royal Highness Dalsingh make a comment yet. So I think we should hold off deciding on what the most ignorant and casteist thing written on this site is until we have his contribution.

Oh okay, you peasants waiting on me to make a comment huh? lol

Erm...hows about.....

Only the most ignorant hogis in the world (i.e. a lot of them) would act oblivious to the fact that attitudes towards them stem largely from their own behaviour outwards.

The abject failure to face up to long term, negative attitudes and actions towards those deemed 'lesser breeds' or 'lower' come home to roost with apathy being reciprocated. But that is lost on the average jat who has a victim complex ironically at par (if not greater) than that the ubiquitous one he frequently 'sees' in others.

The long term celebration of alcoholism amongst that society is a fact - be in denial about it at your own peril.

The erosion of spirituality based worldviews for a material, status obsessed one (and I use the word 'obsessed' here purposefully!), is plain to see by all. Few conscious jats would deny this.

Some questions are in order:

How long could the haughty way that jatts buy into anything that fuels their egos really last? What goes up MUST come down? Like their psychological slave-masters the Brits, jatts actually believed their own press pumped into their heads under colonialism without thinking to much about long term consequences or even short term motives of the ego fuellers. Now, just like the once 'Great' British, who haughtily surveyed their massive conquests/empire and believed the sun would never set on it, jatts too are having to reconcile themselves with being brought down a peg or 5 by natural events.

Nothing stays static - every 'great' community/race/people of the past have been humbled and brought back down to earth - that is God's way. The main lesson to learn (in my opinion) is that we shouldn't buy into, or encourage inflated opinions of ourselves and our own community, because people easily get carried away with that - until the walls of reality come tumbling around us and we eventually gain the profound understanding (if we are lucky) - that, hang on, we were human and fallible like everyone else, after all.

Look, seriously, Panjab jatt society is in a big mess right now. It is hard not to see a lot of this as self-inflicted. How jats of Sikh background have managed to alienate so many of their own Sikh brothers and sisters of a different background is something any jatt with an ounce of integrity needs to ponder upon seriously in my opinion. If after trying this, the conclusion you come to is that 'it's all x, y and z's fault' (i.e. no critical self-reflection), think about the very mindset that causes one to think in that narrow way perhaps?

Let's be frank, a lot of us could see the mess we are in today coming way back. Me personally, current events just reinforce my belief in natural, God driven justice:

ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

I'll leave you to this debate. Personally I wish we could start getting busy with a grander vision than these caste based ones myself.

[Sherdil]

Oh okay, you peasants waiting on me to make a comment huh? lol

Erm...hows about.....

Only the most ignorant hogis in the world (i.e. a lot of them) would act oblivious to the fact that attitudes towards them stem largely from their own behaviour outwards.

The abject failure to face up to long term, negative attitudes and actions towards those deemed 'lesser breeds' or 'lower' come home to roost with apathy being reciprocated. But that is lost on the average jat who has a victim complex ironically at par (if not greater) than that the ubiquitous one he frequently 'sees' in others.

The long term celebration of alcoholism amongst that society is a fact - be in denial about it at your own peril.

The erosion of spirituality based worldviews for a material, status obsessed one (and I use the word 'obsessed' here purposefully!), is plain to see by all. Few conscious jats would deny this.

Some questions are in order:

How long could the haughty way that jatts buy into anything that fuels their egos really last? What goes up MUST come down? Like their psychological slave-masters the Brits, jatts actually believed their own press pumped into their heads under colonialism without thinking to much about long term consequences or even short term motives of the ego fuellers. Now, just like the once 'Great' British, who haughtily surveyed their massive conquests/empire and believed the sun would never set on it, jatts too are having to reconcile themselves with being brought down a peg or 5 by natural events.

Nothing stays static - every 'great' community/race/people of the past have been humbled and brought back down to earth - that is God's way. The main lesson to learn (in my opinion) is that we shouldn't buy into, or encourage inflated opinions of ourselves and our own community, because people easily get carried away with that - until the walls of reality come tumbling around us and we eventually gain the profound understanding (if we are lucky) - that, hang on, we were human and fallible like everyone else, after all.

Look, seriously, Panjab jatt society is in a big mess right now. It is hard not to see a lot of this as self-inflicted. How jats of Sikh background have managed to alienate so many of their own Sikh brothers and sisters of a different background is something any jatt with an ounce of integrity needs to ponder upon seriously in my opinion. If after trying this, the conclusion you come to is that 'it's all x, y and z's fault' (i.e. no critical self-reflection), think about the very mindset that causes one to think in that narrow way perhaps?

Let's be frank, a lot of us could see the mess we are in today coming way back. Me personally, current events just reinforce my belief in natural, God driven justice:

ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

I'll leave you to this debate. Personally I wish we could start getting busy with a grander vision than these caste based ones myself.

Only a fool would say that this is God given justice. Way to alienate your own brothers.

By the same token, what happened to Sikhs in Delhi was God's justice too. Let it be known: When Sikhs came running from West Punjab, they found East Punjab being run by Jatts. They saw us as unfiltered and uncivilized rural folk, so they moved on to Delhi and made their own Gurdwara Committee.

Do you know of the Green Revolution??? The World Bank and US govt. designated India to be an experiment for a new genetically engineered miracle seed that would feed the new Asian nations and save them from the spread of communism.

Punjab was selected as the experiment site, and the farmer was the guinea pig. Genetic crops did produce high yields, but they drained the soil of nutrients and water. The weak genetic crops were decimated by pests. So the World Bank allowed foreign pesticide companies to pump Punjab full of chemicals. That is why Punjab is a leading cancer state.

Punjabi suba movement gave the central govt. an excuse to drain Punjab's water into Haryana. Till this day, Punjab is the ony state in India that doesn't have control over its own water. Punjab's water table is receding every year. Soon it will be a desert. The Punjabi farmer has been forced to make do with inferior crops and minimal water to feed the entire country food that are not even a traditional part of the Punjabi diet.

The big landholders were able to make money and live comfortably for the rest of their lives, but the small farmers are stuck in a cycle of debt, because they need to borrow money to build irrigation systems. But then then they can't pay back the money because their weak crops get decimated by pests. There isn't even a formal money lending system in India to protect them.

All these grievences were included in Anandpur Sahib Resolution. The govt. rejected them. Sant ji was fighting for these things. Don't forget that he was from a farmer background too.

[West London Singh]

WLS, I don't detest my children, mostly because I don't have any, but point being, if I did, I would firstly teach them how the guru's annhilated the caste system, how certain groups do their upmost best to revive it and to never look down/up at someone for being from a different background. Currently, what you have is a group of people who think of themselves so highly, lets pull no punches, they do think they are something special, and who are now literally commiting suicide or abusing drugs that they are fighting for OBC status. 30 years ago, if I called a jat "backward", I would have been verbally abused. Now, they are themselves fighting all the way to be called and classified as 'backward'. You just can't make this stuff up, honestly, you really can't.....

See, that sums up how everything you say is based on your own misguided prejudices. You mention alcoholism and associate it with jatts without knowing how the chamars and churhe have an alcoholism problem in rural Punjab that makes the jatts look like salvation army temperance activists.

You mention Punjab's drug problem and foolishly associate it with jatts without knowing how the drug problem in Punjab is at its greatest among the urban youth. Being rather ignorant of grass-roots realities you idiotically assume the situation in the cluster of villages on the Pakistan border is replicated across the whole of Punjab. It is not. The dire situation among the urban youth, however, is replicated in every single city, town and kasba of Punjab. In case you didn't know, the jatt Sikhs are a tiny insignificant community in all those places.

Hell, lets take the issue of smoking cigarettes for example. You come out of rural Punjab and enter the towns and cities and you see something that you will never ever, in a million years, see among the jatt Sikhs : A Sikh smoking cigarettes. :omg: If you could, I'm sure you'd find a way of blaming that on the jatts also.

You truly are blinded by ignorance and motivated by either hatred or a misguided desire for revenge. Nobody here expects Dal Singh to see things reasonably, but you, time and again...repeatedly, you have been told that the reason jatts are after the obc status is because the situation as it is today, means that their children are denied the chance of any future. You say you are against the positive discrimination system that is causing this in Punjab and yet you fail to notice how jatts have been complaining about it for years now. Nobody has listened. In the meantime, the sons and daughters of the jatts have been left jobless. That, and that only, is what this is all about. When the jobs, education and positions in Punjab are reserved for those with obc status the jatts have no choice but to want it for their children.

Now........when is the last time you came across a 'jatt' Gurdwara ? You see others shamelessly doing it all the time and yet you reserve your criticisms for the jatts ? :wow:

Whens the last time you saw entry into the committee of a normal Gurdwara restricted to jatts ? And yet every single Ramgharia, Bhatra and Chamar Gurdwara in the country has it shamelessly written into their constitution that entry will be open only for members of that caste. Yet you reserve your criticisms for the jatts ? :blink2:

If you could, I'm sure you would blame the jatts for the Great Fire of London. Go to Punjab........See the realities. Chamars look down on Chuhre so much that they won't even drink from the same vessel as them. The Julahe and Sainis look down on the chamars so much that they won't even sit at the same table as them.The Khatris look down on the jatts so much that they go out of their way to marry their sons and daughters to Hindus rather than jatt Sikhs. And yet all you can do is blame the jatts for everything and anything.

I seriously feel sorry for many of you with such sad inferiority complexes.

[singh1986]

Till this day I have to sit in family functions where I have to hear how Jatts are the best and Chamars are low and have an inhuman lifestyle and are just dirty and immoral people.

For years I have had to listen to aunties and uncles trash other castes and make them feel uncomfortable entering "our" Gurdwaray... Its never going to stop! Even as I watch the other Castes progress and leave these Jatts behind economically and intellectually I now have to hear this bakwass that now Jatts are the hard done by community!? I have listened to countless stories of how the Jatts beat the crap out of some poor "choora" like its some sport back in the day or taught some other chamar a lesson... in your average pinds I visit now is a drugged up alcoholic mess dreaming of going Canada/UK...

I come from a Jatt family and can admit we have an unjustified superiority complex. Always have and probably always will have!

P.S at Jatt Gurdwara^^^ lol you serious? You never heard of Jatt Gurdwara... I know of Chamar familes that got turned away from Jatt Gurdwaray to get married in! I have seen sangat with my own eyes hound a tarkhan woman to go back to her own gurdwara!

and West London Singh did you not see that youtube clip posted?! Jatts are the worse when it comes to behaviour in Gurdwaray... atleast other castes treat you nicely... Jatts implement separate entrances etc

[West London Singh]

I have listened to countless stories of how the Jatts beat the crap out of some poor "choora" like its some sport back in the day or taught some other chamar a lesson... in your average pinds I visit now is a drugged up alcoholic mess dreaming of going Canada/UK...

I come from a Jatt family and can admit we have an unjustified superiority complex. Always have and probably always will have!

P.S at Jatt Gurdwara^^^ lol you serious? You never heard of Jatt Gurdwara... I know of Chamar familes that got turned away from Jatt Gurdwaray to get married in! I have seen sangat with my own eyes hound a tarkhan woman to go back to her own gurdwara

You are either wearing blinkers or are plain making things up. Never...in my entire life, have I ever ever come across a 'jatt' Gurdwara. The trouble is, because the jatts are the majority, the other groups naturally feel overwhelmed. They find that overwhelming feeling difficult to deal with so develop a misguided feeling of being sidelined. The jatts only crime then, is that he is large in numbers. That's not his fault. Judging by what you and others here have written you obviously have something like 500 examples of 'Jatt Gurdwaras'. What I'd like you to do then is this : Narrow your long list of 500 down to 3. Just give us the names of 3 'Jatt' Gurdwaras. Tell us their names and address' and we will sort it out.

Go on son......................just 3. That's all I'm asking you for .........

And "beating the crap out of a poor churha" ???? :stupidme: See this is when I know how little you actually know about Punjab these days. With the mass emigration of jatt Sikhs from rural Punjab the situation there has, for at least the last 2 decades, been exactly the opposite of what you said. Ask anyone from rural Punjab these days and they'll tell you that the one golden rule for all is that you should never ever....NEVER.....pick a fight with a chura. Nobody ever does because within the hour the entire bridarari of local churhe will gather for a mass brawl. It is churhe that regularly "beat the crap" out of others, rightly or wrongly, in rural Punjab these days.

So....anyway......go on then. You make out that jatt gurdwaras are as common as bees on a summers day.........so just give us a simple list of 3 ?

[DailyMail]

"If you could, I'm sure you would blame the Great Fire of London on jatts" - no need to get so melodramatic! :lol2:

There are no inferiority complexes here WLS. I'm well aware that all groups tend to discriminate against eachother to some degree. But my points were specifically about jats demanding OBC status. Whilst I'm sure jats have been demanding this for some time, they are on record for mocking others who are defined in such categories, whether you admit it or not.One only has to look at what singh1986 has said above me. Now that he has said it, you are accusing him of lying! I can understand you not agreeing with me, but if a fellow jat is saying it, surely you can't accuse him of having a "inferiority complex or misguided prejudice"? Now, that would be silly wouldn't it old chap?

I'm a julaha with a family that originates from Hoshiarpur. To my knowledge, julahe have never built separate gurdwarae. Whats why I don't agree with those that have i.e. ramgharia, chamar etc. We seemed to integrate with and get on with other sikhs, including jats, maybe more so than other non-jats have with jats. Thats just an observation. But when mazbhis are treated as they are in the video above, I can see why some sikhs establish their own gurdwarae. Like you say, jats a numerical majority, and non-jats probably feel their voice will not be heard or shaheeds from their community are not commemorated maybe? I certainly recall a conversation once when one SIkh said to another that had it not been for ramgharia gurdwarae, we wouldn't have known about Maharaja Jassa Singh's history or commemorate it?! How much truth there is to that, I don't know. But the point is, smaller communities probably establish their gurdwara for fear of being "drowned out" as it were. Like I say, despite this, julahe haven't done so and so maybe other factors come into play?

[West London Singh]

There are no inferiority complexes here WLS. I'm well aware that all groups tend to discriminate against eachother to some degree. But my points were specifically about jats demanding OBC status. Whilst I'm sure jats have been demanding this for some time

See. We're back to square one. Your're prejudices are stopping you from being able to read simple passages and understand simple facts.

Jatt Sikhs have been demanding an end to the obc status system for some time......NOT DEMANDING it. They have been calling for an end to the positive discrimination quota system because the result of it was to ensure that a jatt Sikh child never has the hope of a job or future. You need to try and get your head 'round this simple fact.

Here you are now telling me you disagree with positive discrimination but I don't remember seeing you supporting the jatts in their call for it's abolition. Nobody listened. And yet here you here thinking the jatts have wanted obc status 'for some time now', despite the fact that you've been given the facts time and again on this very thread. Like I said.....nothings gotten through thus far and nothing will. Your mind is too clouded with anti-jatt prejudices to be able to comprehend simple facts.

I'm a julaha with a family that originates from Hoshiarpur. We seemed to integrate with and get on with other sikhs, including jats, maybe more so than other non-jats have with jats. Thats just an observation

And its a good observation Daily Mail. Whilst the fact that you're from Hoshiarpur is unique in Punjab because it is the one district where the Sainis make up a large proportion of the farming landholders as opposed to the dominance of the jatts in the other districts, my experience in the villages of jilla Jalandhar is that the Julahe mix incredibly well with the jatts. Amazingly well, in fact. In many ways, the line between the Jatts - Sainis and Julahe is very blurred these days.