Guru's Titles....Dilgeer's views

[DSGj 339]

ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਸੋਢੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥

We don't use SURNAME and not even DEV.

It is do with human tendency Guru Nanak seems short compared to Guru Teg Bhadur that is the only reason We use Guru Nanak Dev or Guru Nanak Sahib. As Guru Teg Bhadur is accordance with our normal natureof speaking two word name we don't use Dev there. This is simple reason or logic for using Dev or Sahib for people. U have quoted so much and u will be aware of some, its only written amar for Guru Amardass Sahib, it doesn't mean they r not showing respect,it was also in case with Guru Gobind Singh even referred Gobind Singh. Gurbani is written poetic verses so sometime time it is required or not required. Guru Ramdass ji was SODHI WE DON'T CALL HIM GURU RAMDASS SODHI TO SHOW RESPECT. We are so habitual using Dev that we now can't replace it with Sahib.

About Guru AmarDaas Jee, I wrote about that in my first reply in this topic.

"We are so habitual using Dev that we now can't replace it with Sahib."

What is your problem with Dev and why are you so focused on REPLACING it with Sahib? No one is coming out and writing articles saying why you say Sahib. I don't know why you want to change Dev somewhat permanently. From Guru Nanak Dev Jee's birth till now, people have called the Gurus using many different methods.

For example.

Just their name alone: Angad, Nanak, etc.

Part of their full name: Amar (instead of AmarDaas).

Their name + Guru: Guru Nanak

Their name + Guru + Respect: Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Baba Nanak Dev Sahib Jeeo Maharaj :smile2: (you got a problem with that? Then keep it to yourself, because people can praise the Gurus as much as they want. Trying to create debates and arguements that some words should be eliminated and some should replace others it hypocritical. Sahib and Dev are equally good. But it has been proven again and again that Dev is attached to Guru Nanak in many cases throughout Gurbani and history).

It's fully hypocritical of Dilgeer to say that Sri and Dev is wrong, and that Sahib is correct.

Please show me anywhere is Guru Granth Sahib Jee or Bhai Gurdaas Jee vaars or anything from that timeframe where the word Sahib is attatched to the Gurus?

Unless your agenda is that there is nothing like that, so in the future you will say that we shouldn't say Sahib either. Then one day you will say that we shouldn't say Guru either. One can see through Dilgeer + followers agenda.

[N30S1NGH 3,176]

Aad Gur e Nameh Jugad Gur e Nameh Satgur e Nameh Sri Gurdev E Nameh ||

Need i say more? What's next in their agenda? Let me guess, these goons will now claim above shalok/mantra is not gurbani from sukhmani sahib as this appear indic/ hindu/rhymes like hindu mantra..!!

Where is this insanity/sheer paranoia, insecurity, inferiority complex, ancient indic hindu phobia stops?

[jang123 35]

Dilgeer is a pure atheist and I do not bother reading his koorh.

[gurdeepsinghjohal 287]

Aad Gur e Nameh Jugad Gur e Nameh Satgur e Nameh Sri Gurdev E Nameh ||

Need i say more? What's next in their agenda? Let me guess, these goons will now claim above shalok/mantra is not gurbani from sukhmani sahib as this appear indic/ hindu/rhymes like hindu mantra..!!

Where is this insanity/sheer paranoia, insecurity, inferiority complex, ancient indic hindu phobia stops?

GURU GRANTH DEV :biggrin2: GURU GRANTH SAHIB. Dilgeer has a point, I appreciate his point and if u don't its good. People usually have differences but when we have differences we stop listening to them they r right or wrong, calling than simpally they r wrong. It is in gurbani that is why we use DEV TO SHOW RESPECT with Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Angad Dev but r not we biased towards others guru sahibaan like we don't remember them saying Guru Hargobind jeeo Maharaj or Guru Granth jeeo. Maharaj.

[S1ngh 2,418]

Dilgeer is nothing but a guy with huge ego problems. He thinks that he is the only sikh scholar left on this earth. Following this guy on his Facebook and he is one weird individual.

[Jonny101 4,465]

GURU GRANTH DEV :biggrin2: GURU GRANTH SAHIB. Dilgeer has a point, I appreciate his point and if u don't its good. People usually have differences but when we have differences we stop listening to them they r right or wrong, calling than simpally they r wrong. It is in gurbani that is why we use DEV TO SHOW RESPECT with Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Angad Dev but r not we biased towards others guru sahibaan like we don't remember them saying Guru Hargobind jeeo Maharaj or Guru Granth jeeo. Maharaj.

But what do you have to think about the fact that Sri Guru Arjun Dev Jee has used the Dev (GurDev) for Guru Ram Das Jee in Sri Sukhmani Sahib's start? You are using the argument that it is bias for not using dev for all Gurus, but that doesn't make sense. Using your argument of "isn't it being bias", it's like saying "Isn't Guru Arjun Dev Jee being bias in Sukhmani Sahib by not calling Guru Nanak Dev Jee(aad Gure nameh) as DEV, or bias against Guru Angad Dev Jee(Jugaad Gure nameh), Guru Amardas Jee (Satgure Nameh), why only Guru RaamDas Jee?" do you not see how empty your argument is from Gurbani point of view?

I have listened to Dilgeer several times, and he has a HUGE ego problem. He thinks he is Mr Know-It-All, as if he is the only scholar that ever lived in the entire history of man kind. I have rarely seen a man with such Hankaar as him. He is using his fame to mislead and misguide less knowledgeable Sikhs much like Darshan Lal has done. His new books are a total U-turn from his old books(which by the way were in line with Gurmat). Now he has turned himself into pure heretic Kala Afghanist.

[gurdeepsinghjohal 287]

But what do you have to think about the fact that Sri Guru Arjun Dev Jee has used the Dev (GurDev) for Guru Ram Das Jee in Sri Sukhmani Sahib's start? You are using the argument that it is bias for not using dev for all Gurus, but that doesn't make sense. Using your argument of "isn't it being bias", it's like saying "Isn't Guru Arjun Dev Jee being bias in Sukhmani Sahib by not calling Guru Nanak Dev Jee(aad Gure nameh) as DEV, or bias against Guru Angad Dev Jee(Jugaad Gure nameh), Guru Amardas Jee (Satgure Nameh), why only Guru RaamDas Jee?" do you not see how empty your argument is from Gurbani point of view?

I have listened to Dilgeer several times, and he has a HUGE ego problem. He thinks he is Mr Know-It-All, as if he is the only scholar that ever lived in the entire history of man kind. I have rarely seen a man with such Hankaar as him. He is using his fame to mislead and misguide less knowledgeable Sikhs much like Darshan Lal has done. His new books are a total U-turn from his old books(which by the way were in line with Gurmat). Now he has turned himself into pure heretic Kala Afghanist.

I am bit confused with your argument. You are quoting from gurbani when did I quoted anything from gurbani,never,infact all the points were made from gurbani to prove the fact about using Dev. And without quoting any refrence from gurbani and I only used one, that was to say if you go by gurbani why don't you call Guru Ramdass Sodhi. Note of Dilgeer carries all the reference which were used by Sarbloh and he(Sarbloh) rather gave his well researched reference from gurbani for his view. Lines from Sukhmani is confusing me. The point is clear I appreciate his point of view and Sarbloh's different opinion.

[Tony 39]

Fateh

Without prejudice.

We had Guru Nanak ji through to Guru Gobind Singh ji as our Guru's. The summary of the Guru's were saluted by Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Ardass.

All the way through the Ardaas; The Guru's names are placed as per their names without additonal salutations i.e. of Dev or Deo or Sahib....

Care to explain why the additonal respectful salutations are not added in the Ardass.

Fateh . . . .

[gurdeepsinghjohal 287]

Fateh

Without prejudice.

We had Guru Nanak ji through to Guru Gobind Singh ji as our Guru's. The summary of the Guru's were saluted by Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Ardass.

All the way through the Ardaas; The Guru's names are placed as per their names without additonal salutations i.e. of Dev or Deo or Sahib....

Care to explain why the additonal respectful salutations are not added in the Ardass.

Fateh . . . .

Scholar's of panth who have written ardaas, only they can explain. :respect:

[serious gupt 14]

how can we read articles written by someone who has been kicked out of the panth?

surely his guidance cannot b correct??

need I say more?

[DSGj 339]

... if you go by gurbani why don't you call Guru Ramdass Sodhi...

Many people do say Guru RamDas Sodhi.

But they even go a step further and say Dhan Dhan Sri Guru RamDas Sahib Jee Sodhi Sultaan.

Many raagis say Sodhi Sultaan out of love.

If you don't believe me, watch/listen to Keertan from Darbar Sahib, there are some examples of this.

Usually it is said at the beginning of the Raagi's Keertan turn, while praising Guru Sahib.

After searching for an example, I found one. Here is an amazing group. Bhai Jagtar Singh Jee and Jatha.

...We are so habitual using Dev that we now can't replace it with Sahib.

Again, I don't know why you want to remove Dev completely. If someone wants to say Dev, it's fine. If you want to use Sahib instead, go for it. If someone wants to use both, that's great too. If someone doesn't want to use either, then that's their choice. But to say one is "wrong" and the other is "right" is very hypocritical and to go out of the way and make this some sort of major issue is very silly. Dilgeer clearly says that Dev and Sri are wrong and that it should be Sahib. Yet there is nowhere in Guru Granth Sahib Jee where it says Guru Nanak Sahib. Even Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars, where does it say Sahib right after Guru Sahib's name? Nowhere most likely. Sahib (just like Dev, Sri, etc) is used for praise. This whole thing is a silly argument by Dilgeer.

GURU GRANTH DEV :biggrin2: GURU GRANTH SAHIB..... It is in gurbani that is why we use DEV TO SHOW RESPECT with Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Angad Dev but r not we biased towards others guru sahibaan like we don't remember them saying Guru Hargobind jeeo Maharaj or Guru Granth jeeo. Maharaj.

How are we biased and not giving praise to the other forms of Guru Jee? Every body/name gets utmost respect. Every Gurpurab is celebrated at Darbar Sahib, the other Takhats and main Gurdwaras. Now, just because your local Gurdwara or local Sangat might not show the same amount of affection and love, doesn't mean that it's like that everywhere.

Again, it's a non-issue. You will find Gurdwaras with Dev, Sahib, Shah, etc in their titles.

Check out this for an eye-opener.

There is Gurdwara Baba Nanak Shah and Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Darbar.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70415-save-the-historical-gurdwaras-and-temples-of-punjab-pakistan/

https://www.facebook.com/savethegurdwaras

These are just two examples of many.

Once again, there is no issue.

People will say whatever according to their upbringing, environment, culture, traditions, languages, etc.

Dhan Dhan Baba Nanak Shah Faqir. Hindu Ka Guru, Musalman Ka Pir. :smile2:

[gurdeepsinghjohal 287]

Check out this for an eye-opener.

I know what I speak or write. Its just an opinion nothing more than that. I happily replace Dev with Sahib. That's it.

You just can't stand Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, your post proves that. Always look with broader mind you hate someone or u you love some one.

[DSGj 339]

What are you talking about?

You ran out of excuses.

Every point I brought up with logical and sensible proof.

Up till now you appreciated what I said, and now that I put further proof, you're getting all mad. LOL, please, have some consistency.

For example, you said:

Note of Dilgeer carries all the reference which were used by Sarbloh and he(Sarbloh) rather gave his well researched reference from gurbani for his view. Lines from Sukhmani is confusing me. The point is clear I appreciate his point of view and Sarbloh's different opinion.

And you're telling me to look with a broader mind?

I'm the one who read the whole article, analyzed it, put hours of research into it. I read every one of everyone's posts word-for-word in this thread.

I really don't know what kind of open mind you're talking about.

I read what Dilgeer had to say, what you said, what everyone else said. And I answered it.

You just ran out of excuses each and every time. And now with my most recent post, it seems as though you have hit a dead end, especially with the Guru RamDas Sodhi argument. That's why you're so mad now.

I gave some sort of evidence/proof in every one of my posts.

Give me a break, don't be a sore loser.

I understand that Dilgeer is your role model and everything, but come on, you can do better than that.

And you're right, I can't stand Dilgeer.

He's a liar, a hypocrite, 2 faced and much more.

If you ever critically analyzed his literature, you would know.

But I guess you didn't, because you're blinded by his sweet-talk.

For the record, he used to be alright...but for the past 10 years or so, he's done a complete U-Turn in terms of his stance on most subjects in Sikhi.

His literature is proof of that. I will save that for another topic. Let's stick to the point in this thread.

[Jonny101 4,465]

For the record, he used to be alright...but for the past 10 years or so, he's done a complete U-Turn in terms of his stance on most subjects in Sikhi.

His literature is proof of that. I will save that for another topic. Let's stick to the point in this thread.

That's true. The old Dilgeer was a good guy. I don't know why he made such a U turn. His current (Kala Afghanist) views are a contrast to his old views which were in accordance to Gurmat. It's shame really. He's a good writer and could have been such an asset to the Panth, but he has destroyed much of his credibility because of his kala Afghanist views. I hope Guru Jee gives him SuMatt and brings him back to mainstream Gurmat thinking.

Some of the things I don't agree with him besides his Kala Afghanist views is that he accuses anyone he does not agree as an RSS agent(without presenting any proof). From his writings I have seen that he genuinely loves Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, but he hates Taksal. He hates Shaheed Sukhdev Singh Babbar and his group of Babbars, but he likes Shaheed Talwinder Singh Babbar and his group of Babbars. I don't understand his thought process on some of these topics sometimes. But his political views about India and it's treatment of Sikhs and Punjab state are spot on.

[gurdeepsinghjohal 287]

What are you talking about?

You ran out of excuses.

Every point I brought up with logical and sensible proof.

You just ran out of excuses each and every time. And now with my most recent post, it seems as though you have hit a dead end, especially with the Guru RamDas Sodhi argument. That's why you're so mad now.

And you're right, I can't stand Dilgeer.

Raagi jatha proof. Just get some more proof GURU TEG BAHADUR DEV, GURU HARRAI DEV, GURU HARGOBIND DEV.

If you call Guru Nanak Dev, why not call Guru Harkrishan Dev because its not in Gurbani.

We are talking about Guru's, need to check and write before putting an argument.

In gurbani dev is used and not used with Guru Sahibaan. Guru called their predecessor Guru's, Guru parbraham parmeshwar.

Sometime its just Arjan, Amar so will you call your Guru's like this because it is written in gurbani.

Answer to the questions and stick to the point

Your first post you made, cleared that u can't stand dilgeer. Its not about using Dev or Sahib, its about u rejecting Harjinder Singh Dilgeer's idea. 75% of sikhi.