North Carolina Gurdwara refuses an anand karaj

[JSinghnz]

Jonny = According to the rehit maryadha the Anand Karaj ceremony is to be performed if both bride and groom are Sikh. I have seen many interfaith marriages between and Sikh and non Sikh and were allowed Anandkaraj, but I have yet to see one of those couples who practice Sikhi. In fact neither do their children even claim to be Sikh. So this assertion that we should bend or lax the rules in order to win new converts is not baring the positive results. If fact it has resulted in giving the false impression to our youth(especially our girls) that marriage outside of the Sikh faith is okay and sanctioned in Sikhi since they see Babas, kirtanis performing Anand Karaj ceremony for these inter religious couples.

UK = Jonny Paji i understand and respect why you the hold the viewpoint you do. You do so because you want to see the Panth in Chardi Kallah rather than as a declining force. However, I want to respectfully put the opposite viewpoint to you for exactly the same reason ... kay Panth Chardi Kallah vich hovay.

UK = The first question Jonny Paji is ... should we take the Guru Granth Sahib Ji definition of a Sikh (jay'rah vi Guru Granth Sahib dhay a'geh matha tek'dhaii) - whosoever bows before Maharaj or the version defined in 1945 when the Nehru+Congress+RSS aim was to limit the definition of "Sikh" to as small a population as possible.

UK = Your observation is that in the case of mixed marriages you believe it is always Sikhi that gets dropped. My strong observation is that actually the opposite occurs - particularly so with spouses from Dharmic faiths. Logically if any child in this world is presented with Sikhi and any other faith out there as a 50/50 open choice I am 100% confident that the fundamental Truth of Sikhi shines through. So if statistics were shown to you that confirmed that actually the Panth has enlarged over time as a very result of the marriages you now oppose, would you change your opinion? I do agree with you that we need to be extra careful about grooms from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths - however, those crooks ought to be easily weeded out by simply asking them to disavow Slavery and Slaveowners which the Torah, Bible and Quran all actively support. The children from such marriages will claim to be Sikh depending on how welcoming we as a Panth make them feel. If one's parents are not allowed to seek Maharaj's blessing at a Gurdwara for their marriage that will result in a near 100% exodus of the children of such so-called mixed marriages away from Sikhi.

UK = Like Gurdeep Paji said, we cannot restrict Maharaj away from the Sangat for fear of the message it will send to certain girls. The certain girls in question who you wish to control will marry who they want anyway. It goes without saying that Sikhi is the only faith that grants 100% equality to males and females ... so it puzzles me, as much as it does you, as to why somebody would see better qualities in an erstwhile non-Sikhi-practising spouse (which is something that can change due to the marriage with the correct pyaar waalah parchaar). But nevertheless that reality exists so we have to be practical about addressing it. Year on year there will be an increase in so-called mixed marriages. You know that, I know that, we all know that. The question is do we alienate an ever increasing percentage of people away from Sikhi or do we use this demographic reality as a way to adapt and positively grow the Panth's numbers for Sarbat dha Bhalla. This issue is crucial because it's vital to the future of Sikhi in the Diaspora in particular. In our overseas strongholds of UK+Canada we number a mere 0.9%. We don't even hit 1% of the population. It's 100% inevitable that so-called mixed marriages can only increase in such circumstances. So the question is whether it's better to engage with people so that may link themselves and their children with Sikhi or guarantee that they cut all connection to Sikhi forever?

Sevadar = DasGuruka Ji, We have a situation at our local Gurdwara where a Grand daughter of hardcore Nakali Nirankaris wants to marry a Hindhu boy at the Gurdwara.The girls family first said they would marry at their Nakali Nirankari Bhawan however the boy said that he would only marry if it is at the Gurdwara ???

Sevadar = Ok, so the Girls Family are majority Nakali Nirankari's who will disrespect maharaj purposfully which will result in trouble as we will not stand for that.

The boy is not a Sikh. If he wanted maharaj's blessing why hasn't he even done the minimum of changing his name to Singh ????

UK = Sevadar Paji thussi Bedford da haal dekho ... bakhre bakhre Gurdware kitheh pay nay ... and now if the grand-daughter of one of those fooled by Indira's pet Gurbachana wants to get married in a Gurdwara is that not a good sign of someone returning to the true fold? If the groom wishes to get married in a Gurdwara - as opposed to a Bhawan - bowing down before Maharaj that shows that he is not a Hindu like his parents or his name may indicate. By the way I wholeheartedly agree with Luton Gurdwara's suggested code of conduct whereby Singh and Kaur would be the names at point of marriage - and this is something that we would do well to extend to help wipe out gotra use in the UK at least.

Jonny = 1. In the UK they suggested that the person wanting to embrace Sikhi should atleast become a Sikh as per the Sikh rehit maryadha which states one who believes in Vaheguru, 10 Gurus and does not owe allegiance or follows any other religion.

Jonny = 2. A person born into a Sikh family but is not amritdhari currently. There can and should be an Anand karaj performed for them because he will still owe allegiance to the Sikh faith. His children will still identify themselves as Sikhs.

Jonny = Originally I used to think it's okay, but then I noticed that Sikhi has no place in their lives even years after the marriage. Their children almost always grow up as non Sikhs. The result of these inter religious marriages through the Anand Karaj ceremony in Gurdwaras has also had the disturbing trend of confusing our girls many of whom think it is perfectly okay as far as Sikhi is concerned to marry out of the faith.

UK = Paji I strongly believe that via your exclusionary approach that for every single female that you might compel into marrying within the faith another twenty will cut their links with the faith altogether. The end result is a demographic weakening of the Panth. The other suggestion accepts that mixed marriages are going to be an ever increasing reality and works on a proactive approach to engage and link the couple with Sikhi and the Panth as much as possible. If we had adopted your approach 200 years ago then we would still number today not much above the 5% in Punjab as we were at the start of the 19th century. Instead by 1947 we comprised 13% of Punjabi's and as result of the Partitions we now number a majority of the population in Majha and Malwa (and approximately 1 in 6 of the historic Punjab populations from Pakistani Punjab, East Punjab, Haryana and Himachal).

UK = 100% agreed Gurdeep Paji

UK = Paji try to ignore the Nehru+RSS influenced 1945 definition of a Sikh which sought to limit the Sikh Panth's population by definition. Look at the Gurmat definition of an ordinary Sikh from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and focus your thoughts on the children of such marriages, given the inevitable reality that one day this century such marriages will be in the majority - rather than the minority. One method will ensure that 100% of the children will discard any connection with Sikhi. The other way means we can move out of being defined as an ethnic faith and truly be observed as a Universal faith that exists for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Our Panth's collective deficiency in terms of parchaar and explaining the Truth of Sikhi and what Moolmantar stands for is what makes Sikhi meaningless for certain youth - not permitting two souls to wed before Maharaj is not the cause of the malaise you fear Paji.

UK = Paji i think your family experiences are exceptional. I'm convinced that in the majority of marriages where the couple's parents are Hindu and Sikh respectively ... Sikhi is the path adopted by the majority of the children when the parents choose to marry in a Gurdwara. Worshipping the One God alone or a batch of mythical stone idols should present an easy choice to most in the West. Fair enough your rishthaydaar in the West chose to raise her child in a faith which openly gives men permission in the Quran to beat their wives and openly keep extra slavegirls (or kaffir consorts) and where women are openly and clearly considered inferior to men. That's her choice and that's on her and to an extent it's our fault collectively that Sarbat dha Bhalla counts for less in her mind than an openly anti-female creed where the founder himself Prophet Muhammad had 13 wives and multiple slave girls for his own enjoyment besides. However, due to the cultural changes taking place it is inevitable that, with increasing personal freedoms, more and more Muslim females in the West will voluntarily leave their parents' religion of their own free will the minute the Muslim honour-killing culture starts to lose it's grip in the West.

UK = Paji nobody is encouraging anyone into mixed marriages. It's about accepting the reality of what is happening and trying to bring a positive demographic and spiritual outcome from that for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = Paji I think your viewpoint has been discoloured by your own anecdotal observations. Statistically, I don't think your supposition holds up. I strongly believe that Sikhi is a logical Truth which if given equal exposure will always be chosen in more than 50% of cases. Your viewpoint ensures 100% of children of such marriages will stay away from Sikhi. By using the Gurbani definition of who is a Sikh I can guarantee you the Panth should strengthen numerically thereby enabling us to do more for Sarbat dha Bhalla rather than less.

UK = Let's look at Madhya Pradesh situation with a view to the future Jonny Paji. What AKJ have done there is superb. However, the reality is that Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh as a total number 0.2% ie 1 person in every 500 in Madhya Pradesh is Sikh. Long term do we realistically feel that the new Madhya Pradesh Sikhs will only marry others whose parents are also Sikh given the demographic reality there? If we can accept that in the long term they probably won't then we need to focus on how to keep the youth strong - not by way of preventing the Anand Karaj's you wish to stop but by ensuring that every Sikh male or female grows up knowing that their faith is not something to be compromised on (because of the equality, opposition to injustice, commitment to humanity etc, etc Sikhi stands for). In short, why would anybody want to raise their children worshipping stone idols whether they be in Benares or Mecca or Bethlehem? Sikhi says male and female are 100% equal whereas no other faith says the same. Sikhi is for Sarbat dha Bhalla - whereas the other faiths claim that if you do not follow their founder's creed one will end up burning in Hell. What legacy do Christianity, Islam and Hinduism have to actually offer the World apart from having killed tens of millions in the name of their respective religions, murdered tens of millions via Slavery and oppressing millions of Dalits via the almost just as wretched Caste System? Copying the Abrahamic faiths method of matrimonial apartheid will never advance the Sikh Panth because our faith is a totally different spiritual path for the benefit of all humanity whether Sikh, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jain etc that inspires loyalty from within and which cannot be forced but can only be encouraged via pyaar and engagaement with the Sadh Sangat.

Get this numbers thing out of your mind.

Use your energy and efforts on how we can get Quality rather then quantity.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

If you don't have numbers nobody will care about your ethics and principle

[JSinghnz]

If you don't have numbers nobody will care about your ethics and principle

What made you come to this comical conclusion that numbers "will make others care about ethics and principle."

Go back and read our history of how a very small numbers of Sikhs made history with their valour and courage.

[UKLondonSikh]

13 = Rather than being blunt and saying "shove off" we have to explain why they literally need to shove off.

13 = And another thing rather than paying attention to Dera Ballan we need to cement our position with the other individuals who believe in the other Bhagats.

UK = Mirch Paji if we use the 1945 Nehru+Congress+RSS definition of a Sikh then we will further lose the chance to cement our Unity with Kabirpanthi's and Jatavs from Uttar Pradesh as United memebers of the Sikh Panth (to mention but two of the communities that are more numerous than Sikhs within the original Panth). We made this mistake in Dr Ambedkar's lifetime - let's not repeat it.

Pehlvan = The fact that they have had relationships outside of marriage and dragged their parents names through the mud in the process shows that they never cared for Sikhi in the first place. We can see the results around us.....how many children of mixed marriages do you see who are into Sikhi ? They are far away from the religion, language, culture, everything. This is obvious to anyone not wearing rose-tinted barmy PC glasses.

UK = Paji it's precisely because of the attitudes many in our community hold that certain folks may well discard their connection with Sikhi. If you go back in history it is overwhelmingly likely that all of our original Sikh ancestors had so-called mixed marriages as a result of which we are alive and blessed by Sikhi today. Granted, even I would accept that there are probably less Kesdhari children from such marriages but we are looking at keeping people within the Panth - not necassarily for them to raise the next Sant Puran Singh Ji. The greater the Panth's numeric strength, the more True Khalsay will arise. If you have a pool of 100 people, then the maximum number of Amritdhari that can arise is 100. If on the other hand there is a pool of 100,000 people the odds are there should be more than 100 Khalsay amongst the same with the same level of parchaar.

UK = 100,000 Sikhs in London today. Currently around 10% have so-called mixed marriages. So this decade by your suggestion we discard 10% of them. When there's 90,000 left we discard another 20% of them. Then when there's even smaller minority left we discard possibly 50% of that even smaller minority. Genuinely Paji, I feel why the reason why you think what you do but use your logic to see that it will lead to a statistical annihilation of the Panth's number in the Diaspora and outside of our strongholds of Majha and Malwa. I was disgusted and enraged by what happened at Swindon exactly for the above reasons I'm outlining to you. Don't let emotion think for you because my emotion and yours are probably on the same page as to how beautiful Sikhi is and how can some possibly be so shallow as to ignore it's total Truth.

B9 = it's really upsetting to see young impressionable youth sitting in the Sangat, witnessing an inter-faith "Anand Karaj", it's completely confusing for them.

As a father I have kindly declined all such invitations, although i will happily attend marriages of other faiths, in their places of worship.

As a Sikh I have utmost respect for all faiths, their customs and traditions.

I have the same respect for mine, hence i disapprove of inter-faith Anand Karajs.

It's clearly a life-style choice, so should be conducted outside the realms of the Gurdwaras.

I have no problem with inter-faith marriages, conducted in a non-religious ceremony.

UK = So Birmingham Paji if these couples get married at a Hindu Mandir, you'll fully support the marriage and wish them all the best? So why oppose the couple marrying in a Gurdwara and being attached and engaged with the Sikh Panth as a consequence (via interaction with Sadh Sangat) rather than deliberately pushing them towards the Mandir or Dera etc, etc?

Chatanga = Who so ever bows before Guru Granth Sahib cannot be taken criteria to define a Sikh.

UK = This is how the RSS and Sena and the rest of our enemies slap us down Paji. To them anyone without kes or sunnath (circumcision) is automatically Hindu as that's the clever way to define themselves as an 80% majority (when in fact RSS+Sena sympathisers number 10 million throughout India tops = 1% of so-called Hindu's). Whereas, we officially number 1.8% of the Indian population yet can't seem to see that the 1945 definition suited Nehru+Congress+RSS down to a tee. It makes sense for our Panth to define a Sikh to include as many as possible. Mainstream Sikhs, Kabirpanthis, Jatavs, Sanatani's, so-called Hindu Punjabi's etc collectively number over a 100 million. Collectively that would be the biggest United population demographic in India if it ever occurred. You would never see a repeat of 1984 with those kind of numbers on our side. But basically if we look to exclude those people who have the sharda to go to Gurdwara, then we can look forward to other Hindu Jatt enemies of the Panth like Sajjan Kumar getting clean chits in the future.

Chatanga = This is absurd to think that of all the people world-wide who bow to Guru Ji, are Sikhs.

UK = Paji I think it's absurd (and insane) for us not to accept and welcome them as Sehajdhari Sikhs. This is why we have Bihari's from close to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Patna - who are natural born members of the Panth if only we explained the faith to them - ignorant about where Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was born or what Vaisakhi 1699 was about and still being defined as Hindu's after so long in Punjab.

Chatanga = We see thousands of Hindus daily bow their heads at Darbar Sahib, are they Sikhs?

UK = They are Sikhs Paji yes. The average so-called Hindu is not actually Hindu despite the RSS+Sena defining them as such for political purposes. I strongly believe that this is the psychology in your sentence above that we need to (collectively) change. According to Gurbani's definition they are Sikh. Why should we use the RSS definition to define them as Hindu's? Can you name me any other major large faith in the world which claims that devotees who attend their places of worship do not actually belong to their own faith?

Sat = As per the original post above the marriage refused was to a hindu family to have anand karaj for there children , not for an inter-faith marriage, no one wants inter-faith marriages , so why is everyone going on about inter-faith, the issue here is hindus wanted there children to have Anand karaj because some hindus have always had anand karaj in there families , i wish people would read instead of just jumping on the band wagon.

UK = That's the thing Sat Paji. The so-called "Hindu" couple want to get married in a Gurdwara yet supposedly "we" know what's inside their heart so that we can label them as Hindu's instead of accepting them as fellow Sikhs (albeit Sehajdhari presumably). I salute the North Carolina couple for realising that the Anand Karaj is a true form marriage which grants the couple true equality as opposed to the wedding ceremonies of other faiths where the woman is clearly told she is inferior to the man. Instead of welcoming such sincere people, the Committee have alienated them from the Panth. I'm glad that you actually see what's what on this issue.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

rrss = Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh sahib welcoming non-sikhs into his house

UK = Actually Paji yes I can envision that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj would because their life was replete with examples of their Universal Love for all humanity.

rrss = To those claiming that such marriage somehow boosts numbers, same people are quiet when it comes to doing sikhi parchar around the world to spread God's message and quench spiritual thirst, same people like to see sikhi as being owned by those having a sikh ancestor, same people mostly have not taken amrit. Get over it, ancestry is meaningless and void.

UK = Paji if the Sikh Panth does not have a critical mass of numbers - we can see how much Sikhi's message has flourished outside of Punjab, in the Islamic world and indeed even Sri Lanka - there won't be much Sarbat dha Bhalla going on globally. I totally agree that Sikhi comes from within, as opposed to ancestry. However, the correlation between one's parents introducing a child to Sikhi and it being in most of our lives today cannot be ignored. That's why other faiths have so many more followers - it's not due to those political faiths that have killed, murdered, raped and enslaved hundreds of millions being any better for the good of humanity.

rrss = Numbers argument is ridiculous. Muslims, Christrians have to convert before being able to have a religious wedding, and they don't have the high standard of spiritual union set by Gurbani, nor do they have Guru.

UK = The difference is Paji that there are 2.2 billion Christians (almost around 90 times the number of Sikhs) and about 1.5 billion Muslims (around 60 Muslims in the World for every Sikh). Sikhs represent 0.4% of the human race so such so-called mixed marriages will undoubtedly affect us disproportionately more. Either we adapt and use it for the advancement of the Panth or we copy the Christians and Muslims and watch how this proposed alienation of those who wish to marry in a Gurdwara backfires on us with Sikhi's influence in the Diaspora declining in numbers as a long term consequence.

NZ = Get this numbers thing out of your mind.

NZ = Use your energy and efforts on how we can get Quality rather then quantity.

UK = Bro if the Mughal and Afghan Ghallugharay don't reinforce the message of numbers that's one thing.

UK = But 1947 and 1984 should have been a wake up call for us that numbers do matter in implementing Sikhi for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = When it comes to the Amritdhari jeevan, I agree with you it's about true Amritdhari quality rather than churning out quantity by initiating certain folks who are not spiritually ready and then become a patit via meat/sharaab/scissors after a short while. That hurts our Panth's image and agreed that quality is more important for the Khalsa Panth (which is the best of the best within the overall Sikh Panth). However, when it comes to overall population it doesn't matter how fearsome the Maori warriors and their Haka is ... sheer force of numbers will dictate where the global agenda is going time after time. If you don't wish for the Qaum to suffer injustices I urge you not ignore numbers and to welcome as many into the Sikh Panth as possible (even though they may be overwhelmingly new Sehajdhari members of the Panth). If we want Khalsa Raj to offer justice, food, healthcare, equality and peace to the world's population ... we will never get to that vision of Begumpura everywhere without the numbers to back that up ... and instead we will continue crying as to why we don't get justice from the more powerful and more predominant forces in the World.

[JSinghnz]

UK= I repeat my message to you."Use your energy and efforts on how we can get Quality rather then quantity."

You are just confusing yourself and going in circles.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

What made you come to this comical conclusion that numbers "will make others care about ethics and principle."

Go back and read our history of how a very small numbers of Sikhs made history with their valour and courage.

Veer ji you just check the history when India was divided. We did not have number and even wisdom to get our own state.

[sat]

it's about quality and quantity, but to turn people away from Nanak's door especially those who may be from a different background but do respect our Guru (which has happened many times throughout history pir budhu shah ji etc.) and want Anand karaj (not inter-faith so dont start that again) is against our Gurus teachings.

[JSinghnz]

Veer ji you just check the history when India was divided. We did not have number and even wisdom to get our own state.

So you reckon, if we had had quantity, we would have been be more wise. LOOOOOOOOOL.

I love your sense of humour.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

So you reckon, if we had had quantity, we would have been be more wise. LOOOOOOOOOL.

I love your sense of humour.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I love your sense of humor.

If we had number we would have our own land. Lack of wisdom people trusted congress and got cheated.

Wisdom still missing, sense of humor is more prevailing here.

[JSinghnz]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I love your sense of humor.

If we had number we would have our own land. Lack of wisdom people trusted congress and got cheated.

Wisdom still missing, sense of humor is more prevailing here.

Keep getting your entangled in your own comical comments. LOOOL.

First you wanted numbers which "will make others care about ethics and principle"(God only knows what that means)

Then you wanted numbers for more wisdom.(Oh, my God.)

And then numbers would have given you " our own land." ( Seriously, you can make a great comedian)