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I can’t believe this is happening. Is this a common occurrence in Leicester or an isolated case? At the moment Muslims are running circles around Sikhs. It’s time for Sikh girls to step up and take responsibility. If this girl came from the Muslims community I bet there would be many other Muslims girls helping and supporting her and pointing her in the right direction. While this girl probably had other Sikh girls encouraging her and recruiting more.

We Sikhs have no damn Unity!!

What I don’t get is the general Attitude of a lot of Sikh girls. They think if it doesn’t affect them, then why they should care about it. For instance if Sikhs are being groomed or used then why should they care? I tell you why you should care. Because when you same Sikh girl’s get married and have a daughter your children could be the next victims of Muslim groomers on your local street. Think about it. Think about the next generation. I’m not saying it’s all Sikh girls fault. Muslims by nature are very crafty people. Most areas of the UK are over populated with Muslims hence there is more opportunity for this to occur. I.e. in schools and colleges around the UK. Plus they are very good at gaining girls trust and getting this to happen.Don’t look up to Muslims and become their poodles.

No Sikh girls ask for this to happen. But when you date a Muslim your under their power. They can use and abuse you as males generally dominate the female in most relationships. Let’s not beat up Sikh girls. This happened because of scum of the earth Muslim groomers picked up a vulnerable girl off the street and drugged her up. Sikhs should not start blaming each other either. We need to stick together and protect the community when it’s being attacked. We do not need in fighting but need unity. Muslims want are us to be divided. So they can take advantage. Remember most Sikh girls are respectful and intelligent let’s not tarnish all the good Sikh women that are out there! Come on Sikh girls how many of these news stories do you want to hear before you get the damn message! Keep away from Muslim males they are only out for themselves.

WJKK WJKF

Quoted from your post above "No Sikh girls ask for this to happen. But when you date a Muslim your under their power. They can use and abuse you as males generally dominate the female in most relationships. Let’s not beat up Sikh girls. This happened because of scum of the earth Muslim groomers picked up a vulnerable girl off the street and drugged her up "

if your referring to the Leicester case..have you even read the case note and media reports ?? In this case the girl had ongoing issues at home she was already a heavy drinker and drug user...She was already selling sexual sevices to boys at her college to raise money to run away from home because she had arguments with her aprents...she was a self harmer and cut herself on her arms. All of this was BEFORE the paki grooming gang came on the scene... agaIn if you read the case notes... the girl approached the muslim guy herself of her own feree will at Divali celbrations in leicester and made it clear to him that she was offering sexual services for money to him... In other words she as prostituting herself out...

So in this case. Your statement is untrue ."Muslim groomers picked up a vulnerable girl off the street and drugged her up" .. Yes they definitely are sick munded individuals, yes they took advantage of a damaged individual, yes the ordeals are barbaric. But in too many of these cases I see girls playing the "victim" card after they have got themselves into siuations knowingly and of there own free will..When they get caught out or find theyre trapped..the victrim story come out...

Have you ever talked to any Sikh girls in relationships with non-Sikhs..before it all goes wrong ?? I gaurantee you they will tell you mind your own bsiness, and it;s their life etc etc...They think they know better and they know it all..

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Tandoori Singh Jee, you have made some valid points but I have to disagree with some Sikhs are not brave because they are 'Punjabi Sikhs' rather it's the reverse that's true: Punjabis Sikhs are brave

TONIGHT @ 8PM SIKH CHANNEL Bhai Mohan Singh (SAS) will be highlighting the recent case of a Sikh Teenager being sexually exploited by a group of older men in Leicester. This case relates to another

Ummm... yeah. That usually involves a gun to the head, knife to the throat, or sword to the neck. :D

Well, it's a good job that you're not within direct earshot of me, in that case, bruv.

I could let you in on a few home truths that are swept under the carpet at our community level, even those that originate around your endz, that might send you into hypertension.

The "josh" only exists in your late teens/early twenties. When you've seen and heard the worst of it, solid, for over a decade, it just doesn't mean the same anymore. You become tired, exhausted, and hardened.

This case was particularly distressing, I can't imagine what the parents went though, let alone the child herself. But bruv, I'm sad to say it, I wasn't even shocked. Not even remotely. Nothing shocks me anymore.

I think you're in Southall, if I'm not wrong, so you're far from the worst of it.

However, I don't underestimate the ability of Sikhs anywhere in the UK to keep their head under the sand until they, God forbid, become directly affected, which, let's face it, is just as likely in Southall, as it is in Bradistan - not only because of the changing demographic of this particular part of West London, but also because twitter and facebook have totally changed the whole ball game.

If, by "London", you mean Southall, bruv, then that particular part of London has already witnessed an explosion of paki kebab/fried chicken shops, and sadly, many can boast plenty of Sikh custom too.

And, like I've said before, pak muslim sexual grooming has gone on at close quarters to Southall right under our noses from well long before and still is now.

Beliefs like yours are sadly well persistent among our community, and only go to prove just how deluded we actually are.

Sikhs are sleeping, and pakis see them as sitting ducks.

Sad thing is, most of our community truly are.

Well I don't live in southall I have lived there for a year and it seems to me sikhi is still strong there as witnessed in the riots. SIkhs are strong there like when Pakistani kashmiris came from slough to cause trouble and got their asses handed to them they haven't said anything again.

But your answers are true about not having a national identity etc and your answers are also very descriptive and in my eyes true so well done to you for that.#

But yeh I would like you to enlighten me on the home truths about southall and west London,

Because demographically we are still very large compared to other minorities and even though its wrong to have gangs there are plenty of them (Punjabi) in west London area to protect Sikhs. Even in slough Sikhs are very strong, even though there are slightly more muslims.

Ive been to bham luton Bradford ive even lived in Luton and East london for a short while and the Kashmiri people here are very racist compared with Pakistani Punjabis in London who are quite integrated. Yeh there are a few kebab and chicken joints open now but they don't do it anything, well it hasn't been reported as of yet. Most people come from outside of southall to eat in these Pakistani restaurants anyway. Bham you see many Sikh girls going off with Pakistanis because the shere-punjab gave up long ago and Pakistanis or should I say kashmiris are spreading at a very high rate in these areas and therefore targeting Sikhs more who are being left as a minority. Ive never seen Pakistanis try grooming in southall or west London because u have some very tough singhs here as well as the afghan singhs who are coming here now.

Canada and American Pakistanis are the complete opposite of these bham Bradford luton etc ones and like someone has previously posted they don't even mind their own daughters getting married to non muslims such as Sikhs like a couple of my cousins who have got married to Pakistani girls in Toronto.

Vancouver is set to become the largest area outside India where Sikhs are going to be the majority, if you google this you will see. Why has this not happened in the Uk can we blame Pakistanis for this?

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How can this be stopped?

very good question.

I think jashb veerji hit the nail in the head with the national identity point. If we had our own nation we would be much stronger and this would also help abroad.

Other things have been said before but no one does anything.

It includes teaching kids about sikhi from a young age every night instead of bed time stories why not stories about the gurus and also about our history?

Making kids proud of being Sikh making sure we have unity and to do this stop all the caste crap and make british Sikhs run gudwaras instead of pindos who come hear and only care about money

Stop corruption in the gudwara stop the Gianis buying 50k bmw and mercs with sangats money

treat girls and boys more equally at home im sure many do but some don't, It will help. However sometimes a girl is gonna rebel no matter what even Pakistani girls.

make people more aware of the Sikh religion, like basicsofsikhi channel should have a place on sangat tv or Sikh channel doubt this will happen because we always are talk rather than action

Stop the mixed race marriages in gudwaras, teach girls that if you meet one bad guy not all are bad. Tell dem for sikhi to live on you should get married to a Sikh... common sense

but yeh wel see what happens in the future we got a long way to go. Khalistan will help, people are laughing at us all the time espc Pakistanis after 1984 we haven't done anything I don't know what we can do...

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Quoted from your post above "No Sikh girls ask for this to happen. But when you date a Muslim your under their power. They can use and abuse you as males generally dominate the female in most relationships. Let’s not beat up Sikh girls. This

So in this case. Your statement is untrue ."Muslim groomers picked up a vulnerable girl off the street and drugged her up" .. Yes they definitely are sick munded individuals, yes they took advantage of a damaged individual, yes the ordeals are barbaric. But in too many of these cases I see girls playing the "victim" card after they have got themselves into siuations knowingly and of there own free will..When they get caught out or find theyre trapped..the victrim story come out...

Have you ever talked to any Sikh girls in relationships with non-Sikhs..before it all goes wrong ?? I gaurantee you they will tell you mind your own bsiness, and it;s their life etc etc...They think they know better and they know it all..

If this girl was kicked out of her house then she was obviously 'on the streets as it where'. The groomer attended the Diwali function. I don't think this peodophile had any intention of joining the celebrations as he is a muslim. He obviously came there to groom a girl and was on the look out for someone. she was then given drugs by the groomer. so quite frankly Ithink you need to smell the coffe!

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Vancouver is set to become the largest area outside India where Sikhs are going to be the majority, if you google this you will see. Why has this not happened in the Uk can we blame Pakistanis for this?

Probably... Or to put it more specifically, mirpuris.

But I'm sure you'd get a lot of people arguing that a lot of it is to do with the difference in immigration policy between the two countries.

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Firstly: UK allows refugees to settle on an almost frighteningly open door basis, and denies settlement to anyone else outside the EU (they've got enough Polish to deal with, lolz).

On the other hand, Canada has allowed students and skilled professionals to settle permanently in a way that I can't remember the UK ever allowing. Therefore, legit immigration to the UK from East Panjaab hasn't really been an option since the mid 90's, but to Canada it has.

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Secondly: Up until recently, Canada allowed settled immigrants to apply for PR status for their close family members (that I believe recently ended for immigrants who arrived in canada after 2008), which really helped the Sikh population in Canada to increase, as people brought their whole families over after getting PR status themselves.

The UK only ever allowed this on an exceptional basis (if the relative had no independent means of support), so it was never really an option over here.

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Thirdly: The paks increased their population here partly by marrying their first cousins from back home, who then obtain PR status within three years.

Although this option was open to Sikhs also, the numbers of Sikhs marrying outside the UK are comparatively very low, so due to this cultural difference, as well as the fact that the paks had multiple marriages and produced far more babies to take advantage of the Labour party's welfare orientated policies, the numbers gap between the two communities widened.

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Having said that though; it would be a simpleton who considered the legal issues only and paid no heed to the environment prevailing viz-a-viz the Sikhs in the UK.

The fact is that muslims enjoy a special preference from all the political parties, but especially the Labour party, because of the sheer strength of their 5% strong, economically poor, traditionally Labour, vote block which can make or break a general election.

Their population is also concentrated, rather than clustered; so that their nationwide population figure of 5% turns into 50%-70% in their ghetto strongholds, which are effectively non-muslim no go areas. That means that they control the local administration (day to day running of the local council) in those areas via proliferation of muslims into lower, medium and higher level positions - including the department of social services.

It's this local muslim political influence that can really work against kaffirs.

*** With this knowledge, you can understand why the social services departments in muslim dominated areas are so pro-pak muslim paedophile groomers, and actively ignore kaffir concerns, even at the cost of honest decency and respect for humanity.

And further, why are the pak muslim paedophile groomers so keen to encourage their victims to get themselves put into care? Because they are so well integrated with their pak muslim cohorts, working at lower levels in the department of social services at the local council, that they are able to ensure the paedophiles ready, continuous and easy access to the child being groomed, in a way that just wouldn't be possible if the poor child was still at home, by having the pak paedophile registered with the department as a "trusted person" for that particular child. ***

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Sikhs make up only 0.7% of the population in the UK, and correspondingly, have comparatively little influence in most local councils, let alone at the governmental (policy-making) level.

That's not the case in Canada, where, along with the Chinese, we are one of the top two immigrant communities, and enjoy far more political influence.

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As a minority among minorities; it is inevitable that we are going to have problems. The only way to avoid that is to propagate a population increase drive (doubt that will happen).

If we stay at under 1%, then the only proven way to not be completely trampled on is to adopt a variation of the Jewish model - strong, over-represented political participation backed up by an exceptionally clear, unambiguous, national identity.

One of the secrets of Jewish success, other than their insistence on only joining the most highly paid and influential professions, has been their propagation of a clear national identity.

You ask any Jew in the UK who they are and they will tell you they are Jew.

Unlike our lot in the UK , who can't decide internally whether they are Sikh or "Punjabi" (this hypocrisy is well recognised at the UK governmental level), and externally, can't decide whether to declare themselves Sikh, or stay off the radar and be known as "Indian", "Asian", or "British Asian". Any Sikh using any of these generic terms to describe themselves amongst whites/the indigenous population can reasonably be interpreted as a coward.

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Well I don't live in southall I have lived there for a year and it seems to me sikhi is still strong there as witnessed in the riots. SIkhs are strong there like when Pakistani kashmiris came from slough to cause trouble and got their asses handed to them they haven't said anything again.

But your answers are true about not having a national identity etc and your answers are also very descriptive and in my eyes true so well done to you for that.#

But yeh I would like you to enlighten me on the home truths about southall and west London,

Because demographically we are still very large compared to other minorities and even though its wrong to have gangs there are plenty of them (Punjabi) in west London area to protect Sikhs. Even in slough Sikhs are very strong, even though there are slightly more muslims.

Ive been to bham luton Bradford ive even lived in Luton and East london for a short while and the Kashmiri people here are very racist compared with Pakistani Punjabis in London who are quite integrated. Yeh there are a few kebab and chicken joints open now but they don't do it anything, well it hasn't been reported as of yet. Most people come from outside of southall to eat in these Pakistani restaurants anyway. Bham you see many Sikh girls going off with Pakistanis because the shere-punjab gave up long ago and Pakistanis or should I say kashmiris are spreading at a very high rate in these areas and therefore targeting Sikhs more who are being left as a minority. Ive never seen Pakistanis try grooming in southall or west London because u have some very tough singhs here as well as the afghan singhs who are coming here now.

Canada and American Pakistanis are the complete opposite of these bham Bradford luton etc ones and like someone has previously posted they don't even mind their own daughters getting married to non muslims such as Sikhs like a couple of my cousins who have got married to Pakistani girls in Toronto.

Vancouver is set to become the largest area outside India where Sikhs are going to be the majority, if you google this you will see. Why has this not happened in the Uk can we blame Pakistanis for this?

You're wrong in this post when you said that canadian pakistanis are different. most of them are really good and are punjabis in toronto area but in my city calgary alot of the pakistanis are infact from kashmir mostly from kotli and rawlakot to be exact and yes these types even though they r in the minority of even the pak community r the ones who r living the gang life and causing fights and trouble for no reason. I do think tht the same <banned word filter activated> tht happened in the uk might happen in canada but alot of the sikhs here r from jatt ethnicity and moga district which r traditonaly seen as tough as vs to doabis who r majority of the uk.

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There was supposed to be a Times article in today’s paper, Saturday 31st August 2013, http://www.sasorg.co.uk/bbc-documentary-on-sexual-grooming-of-under-age-sikh-girls-and-follow-up-on-sikh-channel-2nd-september-2013/

I bought the paper today nothing about SAS, grooming, can anyone shed some light on this?

Anyhow I donated to SAS this morning, I urge everyone to donate even if it is £1.00. It sends a message to SAS that Sikhs are once again united irrespective of creed, race, caste etc. and the sacrifices of Sikhs in the past have not gone to waste and we WILL look out for our sisters. It also sends a message to the perpetrators we are watching and justice will be served and as a community we have awoken and will now take the fight to our enemies.

To the negligent Police, Council, Social Services etc. we are aware of your corruption & inaction and this situation will no longer be tolerated by the good people of Britain & the world. I will be writing soon to the UN & NATO to launch air strikes against our corrupt UK organizations to protect us Sikhs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039kmx6

Long Live The Khalsa!!!

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To the negligent Police, Council, Social Services etc. we are aware of your corruption & inaction and this situation will no longer be tolerated by the good people of Britain & the world. I will be writing soon to the UN & NATO to launch air strikes against our corrupt UK organizations to protect us Sikhs.

Lolz, :biggrin2: :biggrin2: :biggrin2:

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You're wrong in this post when you said that canadian pakistanis are different. most of them are really good and are punjabis in toronto area but in my city calgary alot of the pakistanis are infact from kashmir mostly from kotli and rawlakot to be exact and yes these types even though they r in the minority of even the pak community r the ones who r living the gang life and causing fights and trouble for no reason. I do think tht the same <banned word filter activated> tht happened in the uk might happen in canada but alot of the sikhs here r from jatt ethnicity and moga district which r traditonaly seen as tough as vs to doabis who r majority of the uk.

You know the truth.

Too often, I find it's the other way round; with way too many Sikhs sleeping, and being completely oblivious to the actual ground situation, as it stands, right now, in their respective area; rather than being alert and awake.

"alot of the sikhs here r from jatt ethnicity and moga district which r traditonaly seen as tough as vs to doabis who r majority of the uk."

I ain't even about to pretend that this ain't a factor.

East London is an area that had IMMENSE problems with Paki Muslim hate attacks on Sikhs in the 80's/90's, of the level that were never seen in Southall (I'm not saying it didn't happen in West London; it was just less blatant and more undercover in the Hounslow/Feltham/Ealing belt).

S.P. elders even told me that in the mid 80's, the East Ham Nagar Kirtan used to see young mirpuri paki's literally physically PULLING / DRAGGING Sikh school-age girls out of the nagar kirtan as it passed through Green Street. If anyone tried to intervene, the pak's would tell them to "mind your own business, she's my girlfriend".

The Sikh population in East London always had been, and still is, to this day, predominantly, urban "tharkan" and "bhat" (with boat paggs that easily get knocked over to go with it).

Not exactly renowned for their fighting skills, and still seen as soft, liberal, and a pushover by the pak muslims.

Which, to be quite frank; we mostly are.

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"Unlike our lot in the UK , who can't decide internally whether they are Sikh or "Punjabi" [/size]

A lot of our people think it means the same thing.

LOL.

The original sher-e-panjab are partly to blame for this.

It would be foolish to ignore the influence of S.P. on young Sikhs in the Sikh populated areas like Handsworth, Smethwick, Southall, Slough, East London; as it was, and possibly always will be, by far, the most successful Sikh-Identity reinforcing movement in the UK since our community moved here.

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The S.P. elders would continually refer to members of our community as "Panjabi", in clear spite of 99% of the evidence pointing to us, being in actual fact, Sikh.

(This hypocritical thinking still translates itself, even today, in 2013, into stupid, nonsensical, bhangra music, exclusively produced by, and listened to, by Sikhs, for Sikhs, yet, unsurprisingly, "pimped out" by a Pak Muslim record label owner (

That reinforces an imaginary "Punjabi" identity that had never existed, and certainly didn't in 1947 when our "Punjabi brothers" showed exactly how "Punjabi" us kaffirs to be.)

As opposed to members of their community, who would be unambiguously referred to as "muslim" or "islamic".

Why the ambiguity in only the way our community is described???

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The hypocrisy is clear to see.

Our community (Sikh), was defined by the language our elders speak; in spite of the clear fact that we can only a muster a mere 15-20% minority of worldwide Panjabi speakers.

And yet, their community (Pak Muslim), was defined by the corrupt, decadent, mish-mash of pre-historic pagan belief systems that they practice; in spite of the clear fact that they form a mere 20-25% minority of worldwide Muslims.

And, all the while; we know that the Pak Muslim community forms the clear majority of Panjabi speakers in the UK; let alone worldwide.

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Now, here's the problem.

When you define yourself as "Panjabi", how do you differentiate yourself, in the eyes of a fourteen-year old Sikh child, from the Lahori Punjabi or Mirpuri Kashmiri (Pak Muslim) community, that forms the majority in your neighbourhood???

You both speak Punjabi, although theirs is a bit different; and you have a common colour, race, features, look...

So, in your eyes, they are your fellow "Punjabis". (Although, in their eyes, you are the f'n worst type of enemy kaffir).

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Do you really expect a fourteen-year old Sikh child, to recognise how important that small, religious difference is, to be able to instantly differentiate themselves, on an identity basis, from their majority muslim fellow "Punjabis" in their area???

That is, a fourteen-year old Sikh child, that's:-

* been taught nothing about the distinct nature of Sikhi;

* knows nothing about Sikh history, particularity modern history including 1940-1947;

* doesn't know even the names of the 10 Guru's, let alone their amazing principles, accomplishments and history;

* has no f'n clue in hell about the hate-text that is the holy koran and hadeeths, and all of the corrupt islamic "shariah" laws that originates from it, including taqiyyah, muta...

But was certainly taught "oora-aara" at Punjabi school, as the dumb uncles that control the UK Gurdwara committees deem it far more necessary in the propagation of a "Sikh" identity than any of the above...

Answer:

I don't.

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So how is a dumb fourteen-year old Sikh girl, whose father drinks, mum does chugliyan, and parents that never go the Gurdwara, except once in a blue moon; supposed to know the difference between her identity, and the muslim identity, when it comes to forming relationships, when her community have always told her that she's "Punjabi" too; not distinct Khalistani/Khalsa/Sikh???

How you gon' implement a clear, unambiguous, national identity?

Ain't by calling yourself a term like "Punjabi" that is rightly used by 80+ million of your worst enemies!!!

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This always confuses me. Why was it like this, I really don't know???

Why is it still like this? Turn on brit asia and you can still hear plenty of stupid nonsensical songs like "Sher Punjabi Putt Aa"

Perhaps, and what I'm about to say could be interpreted quite controversially; it was because an unambiguously Sikh identity wasn't one that many UK Sikhs, especially the youth, and young Sikh females in particular, felt comfortable with in the 80's/90's????

Or maybe because our association with bhangra music "culture", was stronger than our link back to Sikhi?

I don't know. Whatever.

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Blank Canvas. Blank Canvas.

So f'n important, I had to say it twice.

That's what your kids are.

If you don't clearly implement your identity on your children, then someone else will; and they will most certainly see that kid as a dumb, fourteen-year old piece of meat, ready to be groomed; especially if they happen to be a devout Pak Muslim.

God forbid that this continues to happen to unsuspecting children of unsuspecting parents.

Ignore it if you like; but then don't complain, if, unfortunately, the worst, should come, to worst.

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good points jashb. Sikh identity must be promoted over all other identities. A Punjab identity is good too but not if it makes our youth into secularists/liberals. In 1947, the Punjabi identity was destroyed when when the majority of Punjabis(Muslims) decided to kill Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab. After 1947 Punjabi identity was further destroyed when Punjabi Hindus out of communal mindset decided to abandon their mother tongue in favour of Hindi.

There is no such thing as "Sher Punjabi" label that Punjabis are so proud of. It should be Sher Sikh. Before the Sikh faith was born, invaders would invade Punjab and Punjabis would do nothing. Punjabi women were taken as slaves and the majority of Punjabis converted to Islam out of fear and this did not move the Anakhi Punjabi one bit. But when Sikh Dharm was born, only the Sikhs began to give a reply to the invaders in the only language they understood and Sikhs were and are a small minority of Punjabis. During the 1700s, when a Punjabi Hindu youth was brave enough he did not join Hindu armies, but rather he converted to Sikhi and joined the Sikh army.

Even the Punjabi language which now has an official status is only because of the agitations and hardwork of Sikhs. Look at Pakistan which is the only country in the world where Punjabis are the majority but Punjabi language has no official status like other regional languages such as Sindhi, Pasthun or Balochi does. In India, the Hindus of Punjab were the strongest opposers of giving Punjabi language an official status. But for Sikhs Punjabi language is something else. In other states too where sikligars reside who are not even Punjabis, but even they try to learn and speak Punjabi, I've met non Punjabi Sikhs in Nander even they know how to speak Punjabi. The new Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh are also trying to learn Punjabi. Sikhs do this not because Punjabi is some religious compulsion but out of love for the Gurus who spoke this language.

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You know the truth.

Too often, I find it's the other way round; with way too many Sikhs sleeping, and being completely oblivious to the actual ground situation, as it stands, right now, in their respective area; rather than being alert and awake.

"alot of the sikhs here r from jatt ethnicity and moga district which r traditonaly seen as tough as vs to doabis who r majority of the uk."

I ain't even about to pretend that this ain't a factor.

East London is an area that had IMMENSE problems with Paki Muslim hate attacks on Sikhs in the 80's/90's, of the level that were never seen in Southall (I'm not saying it didn't happen in West London; it was just less blatant and more undercover in the Hounslow/Feltham/Ealing belt).

S.P. elders even told me that in the mid 80's, the East Ham Nagar Kirtan used to see young mirpuri paki's literally physically PULLING / DRAGGING Sikh school-age girls out of the nagar kirtan as it passed through Green Street. If anyone tried to intervene, the pak's would tell them to "mind your own business, she's my girlfriend".

The Sikh population in East London always had been, and still is, to this day, predominantly, urban "tharkan" and "bhat" (with boat paggs that easily get knocked over to go with it).

Not exactly renowned for their fighting skills, and still seen as soft, liberal, and a pushover by the pak muslims.

Which, to be quite frank; we mostly are.

this used to happen in the 80's n 90's? wow i thought back then you guys were all united under the banner of south asian fighting off racist whites holy &lt;banned word filter activated&gt; was i wrong. Let me just tell you how it is in my city alot of the sikhs here have been born in bred in canada but the pakistanis n kashmiris came round from pakistan n r new to canada so thts y i think we havent seen them try to do much trouble its mostly just fights but even in the nagar kritan in 2011 there was alot of talk of how a group of muslims came drunk n high on weed n beat people up but it was later found out it was more to do with beef between school kids n there was also a apna with them,this was very embarassing as the police came n made it look really bad. but i wanna know is from what i think the south asian community in canada is prolly like the uks in the 80's but apart from those incidents we havent had much trouble do u think tht we might be going down the same road as our uk brothers n could u tell me more history in the 80's n 90s or internet links its very interesting

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good points jashb. Sikh identity must be promoted over all other identities. A Punjab identity is good too but not if it makes our youth into secularists/liberals. In 1947, the Punjabi identity was destroyed when when the majority of Punjabis(Muslims) decided to kill Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab. After 1947 Punjabi identity was further destroyed when Punjabi Hindus out of communal mindset decided to abandon their mother tongue in favour of Hindi.

There is no such thing as "Sher Punjabi" label that Punjabis are so proud of. It should be Sher Sikh. Before the Sikh faith was born, invaders would invade Punjab and Punjabis would do nothing. Punjabi women were taken as slaves and the majority of Punjabis converted to Islam out of fear and this did not move the Anakhi Punjabi one bit. But when Sikh Dharm was born, only the Sikhs began to give a reply to the invaders in the only language they understood and Sikhs were and are a small minority of Punjabis. During the 1700s, when a Punjabi Hindu youth was brave enough he did not join Hindu armies, but rather he converted to Sikhi and joined the Sikh army.

Even the Punjabi language which now has an official status is only because of the agitations and hardwork of Sikhs. Look at Pakistan which is the only country in the world where Punjabis are the majority but Punjabi language has no official status like other regional languages such as Sindhi, Pasthun or Balochi does. In India, the Hindus of Punjab were the strongest opposers of giving Punjabi language an official status. But for Sikhs Punjabi language is something else. In other states too where sikligars reside who are not even Punjabis, but even they try to learn and speak Punjabi, I've met non Punjabi Sikhs in Nander even they know how to speak Punjabi. The new Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh are also trying to learn Punjabi. Sikhs do this not because Punjabi is some religious compulsion but out of love for the Gurus who spoke this language.

True, but we have taken the pursuit of promotion of the Punjabi language to a next level; where it easily overshadows the importance of the promotion and propagation of the distinct Sikh identity.

The fact is that our culture is NOT Panjabi.

It never has been and never will be. Panjabi culture was created by, and belongs to, the majority muslims of Panjaab. Anyone who seriously believes that Sikhs would create a culture that runs totally opposite to the teachings of the Guru's needs their heads tested.

Moreover, we couldn't have created a Panjabi culture even if we wanted to. Since it is widely acknowledged that Sikhs formed less than 15% of the population of greater, undivided Panjaab, even after the great proselytising success of the Singh Sabha movement; how were we supposed to impose our way of life on the 85+% majority???

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The truth is that we HAD our own distinct KHALSA culture;

But we abandoned it very quickly, soon after we came into massive power in Panjaab, some 30+ years after the misl's were formed on a purely KHALSA foundation;

During the late 1700's, when there was a vacuum of power, created by the impotence of the later Mughal administration, and the frequent absence of the de facto rulers, like Ahmed Shah Abdali, from Panjaab.

Why??? I don't know. I guess the temptation to emulate the Mughals in terms of hedonism and excess was too strong, once the misl's could ruler freely, didn't have to go into repeated hiding, and had considerable proceeds from rakhi money.

So we adopted the muslim panjabi culture (which itself is a local adaptation of the indian mughal culture); which consisted of, though not exclusively; wining and dining, multiple women, excessive sharaab consumption, promiscuity, lots of meat, women wearing lots of make up ("shingaar") and jewellery, and generally having a good time.

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[sikh men getting absolutely hammered, or even drinking alcohol at all, and Sikh women getting dolled up in what was, for back then, the equivalent of mini skirts and tight tops of today, was absolutely, totally f'n unheard of in the early 1700's.

The same insanity was considered 'normal' for Sikhs in the early 1800's.

Look how we fell.]

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Then what happened???

What did we gain from this cultural "advancement"/change???

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

The result is all plain to see. We gained nothing, but we lost everything.

At the end of the 18th century, we were, in some ways, lucky to have Maharaja Ranjit Singh. For all his many faults, he was still an exceptionally strong and politically astute leader, the kind that comes around only once in a few generations; and this helped to mask all the deficiencies that were slowly creeping into Sikh society during his dictatorial reign. He was strong, clever and ambitious enough to be able to overcome the smaller misl's, and merge the others with his own through diplomacy, and thus chalk out, a large, united, strong, so-called "Sikh" kingdom.

Albeit heavily weakened by the gradual moral slide/degredation of higher Sikh society, the Khalsa Culture was still kept burning, during this period,by a small, but vocal, and distinct, minority of Kattar Singh Soormeh, the likes of, to name a few; Sardar Hari Singh Ji Nalwa, Sardar Sham Singh Ji Attari, and Akali Nihang Baba Phoola Singh Ji. These heroes acted as a magnet force to slow down the inevitable moral slide, that would have happened even faster, had these Kattar Singh's not been in full public view.

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But, after the Maharaja's demise, chaos ensued.

Especially so within the royal household, where none of the Maharaja's elder sons were able to manage the mess, partly because that's where the hypocrisy and duality, with regards a reinforced "Punjabi" identity, as opposed to a purely Sikh one, started from; where the rot stated.

Children are impacted by adults' changes in behaviour far more than we adults think; the secularism, opulism, hedonism and excess, so adopted by the Maharaja, that is totally alien to Khalsa Culture, had clearly rubbed off on his sons.

Blame the Dogra's or not (in fact; they wouldn't have even been in a remote position of power had secularism not crept into upper Sikh society); the fact is that we weren't strong enough, to retain the empire, in the mid 1800's, even with far better weaponry and far more manpower;

Than we were, to build the empire, in the mid 1700's, with far simpler weaponry and much smaller forces, when we possessed PURE KHALSA CULTURE.

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The rise and fall of Sikh power is directly related to our change in attitudes toward Sikhi, and our resultant abandon of our indigenous Khalsa Culture, given to us by Dasmesh Pita, in favour of the adoption of the foreign ("malechh") muslim "Punjabi" culture.

We make so many excuses for it these days, and try to blame it all exclusively on the Dogra's.

But the fact remains that we wouldn't even have had non-Sikhs (which they originally were) in the Khalsa Raj in. the first place if we had stuck with our own Khalsa Culture, rather than adopting a horrible self-hating brand of secularism, which turned out to be the equivalent of shooting ourselves in the foot.

It's as if Dasven Patshah is giving us a clear and unambiguous lesson.

The question is, Sikhs; are we going to take it?

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Dasven Patshah took a valuable stone (diamond), and threw it into the river.

They asked a Singh, why did that diamond sink?

The Singh answered, because it's heavier than the water, that's why the diamond sank.

They asked another Singh, why did that diamond sink?

The other Singh said, because it went into the water with force, that's why the diamond sank.

Then, Dasmesh Pita asked Bhai Daya Singh (pehle pyare). Why did that diamond sink?

Bhai Daya Singh answered

"Dasven Patshah, I don't know why that diamond sank.

All I know, is just one thing.

That;

Whoever, and Whatever, that left the sanctuary of YOUR Protection, Pita Jee;

SANK TODAY, AND WILL REMAIN SUNK FOR EVER MORE!"

DHAN DHAN DASMESH PITA - PUTRA DA DAANI !!!!!

:) :) :)

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