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Can Someone Explain This Shabad From Babur Bani, Does God Care?

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Aasaa, First Mehl:

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan.

The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death.

There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? ||1||

O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all.

If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. ||1||Pause||

But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it.

This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.

You Yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. ||2||

One may give himself a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind,

But in the Eyes of the Lord and Master, he is just a worm, for all the corn that he eats.

Only one, who dies to his ego while yet alive, obtains the blessings, O Nanak, by chanting the Lord's Name. ||3||5||39||

It says God doesn't take the blame for the deaths, yet it says the Mughal was SENT as a messenger of death. So, God is responsible because he sent the killers.

The question appears to be unanswered, it says "didn't you feel compassion?"

Then it says "God is master of all", then says if a "tiger attacks a flock of sheep, the master must answer for it", so God must answer as he is the master of all, the sheep and tigers.

Is the shabad speaking against Babbar? "just a worm, no matter how much corn you eat".

Can someone explain this, if not, send me katha on this.

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Guest dasguruka

The talk is towards Babar and not God when it says "Didn't you feel compassion?" A kathavachak was doing katha on this and he said the same thing as you did. And after the katha Sant Waryam Singh told the kathavachak that Guru Nanak's first concept in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vaheguru's Hukam and not questioning what he does. I know this sounds a bit incomplete as its not coming to my memory altogether.

I was a bit thrown off too when I first read this Shabad. I don't remember what katha this was in or I would post it.

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The talk is towards Babar and not God when it says "Didn't you feel compassion?" A kathavachak was doing katha on this and he said the same thing as you did. And after the katha Sant Waryam Singh told the kathavachak that Guru Nanak's first concept in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vaheguru's Hukam and not questioning what he does. I know this sounds a bit incomplete as its not coming to my memory altogether.

I was a bit thrown off too when I first read this Shabad. I don't remember what katha this was in or I would post it.

"Didn't you feel compassion, Lord?"

Why would Babbur be called Lord? Guru Nanak did not bow down to worldly powers. Also, he then calls Babbur a dog.

Why would a random line to Babbur pop up as Guru Ji says "O Creator Lord", he is clearly talking to Waheguru.

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The way I think of it is that the Guru's hukam is all encompassing. All the pain and suffering stems from the one, yet so does the much more powerful bliss, peace and liberation also comes from realizing the one. We strive to find peace and joy from our lives, but how could we appreciate the moments from which we derive such peace if we did not experience suffering and despair with which we could truly come to appreciate the great joys which stem from the guru. Would we have truly lived without knowing pain? Without pain, and without sadness, we would be laid waste to our ever growing egos, and even the most blissful and beneficial of events would seem horrible to us. In simple words, such horrible happenings provide perspective, and with that perspective, we gain a greater understanding of the world around us, and by extension, the true guru who has immersed himself within his creation.

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Aasaa, First Mehl:

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan.

The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death.

There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? ||1||

O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all.

If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. ||1||Pause||

But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it.

This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.

You Yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. ||2||

One may give himself a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind,

But in the Eyes of the Lord and Master, he is just a worm, for all the corn that he eats.

Only one, who dies to his ego while yet alive, obtains the blessings, O Nanak, by chanting the Lord's Name. ||3||5||39||

It says God doesn't take the blame for the deaths, yet it says the Mughal was SENT as a messenger of death. So, God is responsible because he sent the killers.

The question appears to be unanswered, it says "didn't you feel compassion?"

Then it says "God is master of all", then says if a "tiger attacks a flock of sheep, the master must answer for it", so God must answer as he is the master of all, the sheep and tigers.

It was pre-ordained by God to destroy and cause death. Instead of doing it via a natural act of God such as earthquake,flood, hurricane..etc......he sent the mughal as messenger of death.

Is the shabad speaking against Babbar? "just a worm, no matter how much corn you eat".

The 'key' is usually in the rahao tuk.

which says '' If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. ||1||Pause|| ''

Looking at this, take note of the word 'POWERFUL'.... Who is really powerful ?

The mughal's ego makes him physically powerful amongst the people.

Amongst the eyes of God the mughal is just like a worm, no matter how powerful his ego may be here.

It's all God's play on how the events unfold.

We can only be powerful when we subdue and give up our Ego. If this is done, then events of dominating/death/power...etc... won't occur with our Ego-less actions !

The last line says that 'only one who dies to ego whilst alive obtains the blessings''.

These are the blessings for achievement,greatness and love, which is much more than worldly power.

Before this it also says, that God himself unites or brings closer to him the righteous good doers and God himself separates the evil and wicked.

It's ALL his play and HE does as He decides.....

The two keywords that come to me from this shabad are-

EGO and HUKAM.

In ego, you may assume you are all powerful and invincible, and in turn play as God in giving out death(which is God's role)

But it is ALL his Hukam that decides who or what becomes the cause/messenger of death.

Edited by luckysingh99

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The two keywords that come to me from this shabad are-

EGO and HUKAM.

In ego, you may assume you are all powerful and invincible, and in turn play as God in giving out death(which is God's role)

But it is ALL his Hukam that decides who or what becomes the cause/messenger of death.

Thank you.

But how about the "There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? ||1||" line?

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The real question is why should Waheguru have compassion?Waheguru is not limited to being kind and nice but also cruel and mean.If he was only nice and compassion then who is mean and cruel.If Waheguru is all powerful then he should also be the one who is mean,cruel evil etc.

I don't think Vaheguru is mean or cruel, because They are without hate completely. The Abrahamic perception of God includes characteristics of hatred and jealousy... but the Sikh view of God I believe is all loving, all compassionate and all understanding.

Edited by Questioner

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Thank you.

But how about the "There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? ||1||" line?

I see what you are saying !

Here is one of the shabads where you have to look at the overall message and essence, after reading a few times. And then go back to each individual line to contemplate further.

My Understanding in this case-

The direct short answer for this particular question/tuk would be the very next line-

........O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all...............

This says that You are the maker/creator of BOTH the slaughterer and the slaughtered.ie.. it is ALL part of your One creation.

so, the question would be that if they are BOTH your makings, then do you feel compassion for the slaughtered or do you feel that the slaughterer was 'powerful' ?

This answer is given further about who is Really powerful...''the One who plays in Ego or the One who kills their own ego''.

We also know,who he brings more closer to him.....- It is NOT because he feels sorry for the slaughtered, but it is more the question of who acted in the most Ego

I hope that explains and answers your question a little further !

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Guru ji is addressing Babbar, watching over your tyranny didn’t you feel any compassion? is the question

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There are many interpretations of Gurbani if you like. This one is Fareed Koitia teek (most referred teeka by Parcharaks )

ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ ਕਾ ਤੋ (ਖਸਮਾਨਾ) ਪਖ ਕੀਆ ਔਰ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੈ ਦੀਆ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਕਿ ਮੁਗਲੋਂ ਕਾ ਪਖ ਕੀਆ ਪਠਾਨੋ ਕੋ ਭਯ ਦੀਆ ਪਰੰਤੂ ਹੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਤੈਨੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਪਰ ਦੋਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਆ ਜਮ ਰੂਪ ਬਾਬਰ ਮੁਗਲ ਕੋ ਚਢਾਇ ਦੀਇਤਨੀ ਮਾਰ ਪੜੀ ਔਰ ਪਠਾਨ ਰੁਦਨ ਕਰਤੇ ਭਏ (ਤੈਂਕੀ) ਤੁਝਕੋ ਦਰਦ ਨ ਆਉਤਾ ਭਯਾ॥

O' Waheguru, what pain can you feel? According to me, Guru ji is not asking but telling us there is no pain he endures even being inside all of them.

Guru Gobind Singh ji says in Dasam Bani that Waheguru ji created the demons to overcome the ego of Devtey. Then he had to finish them (demons) as well with giving divine powers to the destroyers of the demons.

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Why can't god be cruel?If we limit god then we are limiting his powers.The abrahamic perception of god is that god does good and satan does bad.In sikhi god is both good and bad.He created the panj chor,he created death,disease,etc.If it wasn't god then who created all of the bad things?Something powerful as god?

If god was nice and happy then there should be no hate,death,famine,sickness,disease etc.Everyone would love everyone and we should not work etc.

It's not the case that God CANNOT be bad, it's the case that God IS NOT bad. The Mool Mantar tells us the basic truth that God is without hate. The Abrahamic perspective of God includes jealousy, vengefulness and wrath- for example, in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah, or the worship of other Gods. This is all scripturally based. But Gurbani makes no mention of such a God (unless you can find me a Shabad that does). Yes, we know that suffering exists and that God causes and destroys, but it does not logically follow that a hate-less and all-loving God is therefore cruel as well. Perhaps it is our perception of cruelness, suffering and evil which is flawed.

Edited by Questioner
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GOD is love not the dispenser of love based on some criteria. Our will is GOD's will. We create our own reality based on our minds and experience it. Its a collective conscious of beings that bring atrocities, natural disasters upon us.

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Waheguru is everything. We must remember our purpose of being here. It is to merge with Waheguru. This is done with Naam Simran, reading Gurbani, doing Kirtan and Seva etc... Then the 10th Gate will open and you shall be free from reincarnation.

Gurbani is talking about Babur, but how about all the other people who do/did bad things such as: Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Ivan the terrible, Osama Bin Laden, etc.... How much terror did they bring? Waheguru let it happen also, therefore you can say whenever there is a war that does God care?

Gurbani tells us that Waheguru is love and that he has started the process call the universe. In this process everything is happening, i.e. Birth, Living and Death. There are wars amongst animals and plants over territory or a mate.

If we dwell on these worldly things then we miss our purpose of being here. In the shabad you mention, Guru Nanak Dev Ji is retelling history and explains that yes Waheguru watched over these terrible events, BUT you MUST always read the last lines to get the message because in the end of the shabad Guru Nanak Dev Ji is telling us just as he tells us in almost every shabad that:

We must let go of our Ego whilst we are alive then Wheguru Ji's name can grow and blossom inside you.

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Waheguru is everything. We must remember our purpose of being here. It is to merge with Waheguru. This is done with Naam Simran, reading Gurbani, doing Kirtan and Seva etc... Then the 10th Gate will open and you shall be free from reincarnation.

Gurbani is talking about Babur, but how about all the other people who do/did bad things such as: Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Ivan the terrible, Osama Bin Laden, etc.... How much terror did they bring? Waheguru let it happen also, therefore you can say whenever there is a war that does God care?

Gurbani tells us that Waheguru is love and that he has started the process call the universe. In this process everything is happening, i.e. Birth, Living and Death. There are wars amongst animals and plants over territory or a mate.

If we dwell on these worldly things then we miss our purpose of being here. In the shabad you mention, Guru Nanak Dev Ji is retelling history and explains that yes Waheguru watched over these terrible events, BUT you MUST always read the last lines to get the message because in the end of the shabad Guru Nanak Dev Ji is telling us just as he tells us in almost every shabad that:

We must let go of our Ego whilst we are alive then Wheguru Ji's name can grow and blossom inside you.

But if God allows those things to happen, how does it make him any better than Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin?

So how can God be caring and loving if he does these things?

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I wonder if one might take another angle on this shabad. If one assumes that God is part of our being, atma as the shabad 'man tu moth saroop[ hei apna moll pacha an' states, in essence we can think of this shabad as a internal dialogue that Guru Nanak is engaged in, a self reflection, if you like. This self dialogue then really can be understood as Nanak identifying a series of moral questions. What should I one do when faced with a powerful egotistical demagogue like Babur?What power do I have to oppose the power of the oppressor? what moral responsibility do `i have given the power dynamics? And so, perhaps what Nanak is really asking us to address our own moral conscious and to contemplate how we should respond to such an oppressor. And so when he asks god, 'didn't you feel pain and suffering' he is really asking us to reflect on how we might react when we witness suffering and oppression. It is our own ego that stops us from making a moral choice to be passive or active, to confront or not confront such oppression. I know this is a rather complicated argument, but the key is not to see waheguru as some external entity sitting in witness; This is essentially a Christian idea. In sikhi, we are all potentially god. "Sabh meh joth joth he soie, tis day chanan sabh me chanan hoe". Once we grab the concept of God in Sikhi, only then can we make sense of the greatness of Nanak's teachings. The truth is that this shabad is really about oppression, just war and the need for people of faith, gods representatives on this earth if you like, to confront both the tyrant and their own ego. The first strategy is to enable them to realise folly of their actions and the dangers of ego. Failing this, then we al have a moral duty to confront with force such oppression.

As for referring back to Sanatnist Babas, this is your right but I feel all they will simply tell you what somebody has told them. For then sharda is more important than doing try khoj of the shabad. And the only way one can really do true khoj is not to be driven by our ego i.e. "I am right, you are wrong" but by a true love for gian. And so one should be is to be open to being proven wrong. So I humbly request my learned gursikh brothers and sisters to help me understand any limitations in my analysis of this shabad so that I may understand Guru Nanak's message m,ore completely.

Guru Fateh Ji

Dr Gurnam Singh

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