Agony Agony Of Women During Partition

[proactive]

Well I am 'well-read' but I actually see that as a hindrance these days rather than something good. There was a time when a man like Coleridge was celebrated for being extrordinarily clever after reading every book available in the entire world but we live in today extraordinarily stupid times. We live in a world where the average published book is written either by dunces like Madonna and Jordan or those with the literary prose of a 10 year old...e.g Dan Brown of da vinci code fame. Thus, in this day and age, this upside down world we live in, a man who is extremely well read and does as Coleridge did, i.e reads every book in the world, will actually end up being far stupider than the man that reads no book at all.

So...leaving my meaningless and negative 'well-read' claim aside, when you take every single report, every single document, every single book, every single thesis on the matter of partition and add it to the oral history passed down from the elders in the Sikh dominated areas such as Jalandhar district and Ludhiana district I'm not sure how you can dispute the extremely high muslim death rate.

You can, however, because you want to. And we both know why you want to.

So, you've read every single report, book, document and thesis? I highly doubt that. There's been no agreement on the subject, with our side and the Indian Govt concentrating on the violence in West Punjab and the Pakistanis concentrating on the violence in East Punjab.

Can I ask what your advice being so well read as you are have been to the 1,8 Million Sikh refugees forced out of Pakistan have been? Also your advice to the Sikh leadership who having been denied the right of a sovereign Sikh state were faced with-;

1. 1.8 Million Sikh refugees who have lost everything

2. A Muslim population in East Punjab which had attacked the Sikhs and Hindus in Amritsar city,

3, A Muslim population in East Punjab which had attacked Sikh refugees who had reached what they thought was the safety of East Punjab

4. Having no land to resettle the Sikh refugees on because Gandhi and Nehru wanted the Muslims of East Punjab to stay and not migrate to Pakistan.

[West London Singh]

West London singh ji

Have you got any reference in support of your claim? If so put it here.

No I'm not going to do that GPS. We, all of us together, have been down this route before here. Its just a very simple process of doing simple google searches and reading the vast literature on the matter. You can quite easily do that yourself.

Malerkotla is a Muslim dominated town in E Punjab.No muslim was harmed there.

They are still there.

That is correct. Partition is full of anomalies like that. For example, in Jalndhar district, in the villages around Moa Sahib Gurdwara, where Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji was married, there still exist today a cluster of muslim villages that were left unharmed by the Sikhs despite hundreds of thousands of muslims being wiped out in the district as a whole. The reason for that is because when Guru Arjan Dev ji got married there he was given such a warm loving welcome by the local muslims there he described them as his own "beloved muslims" and subsequently a mosque sits within the compounds of the historic Gurdwara there. Sikhs never forgot that and let them be whilst madness prevailed in '47.

By the same token, its worth remembering how 99% of Pakistan's Sikhs live not in Punjab but in the tribal north west frontier pathan areas. The reason for that is because as per the pathan code of conduct: Pakhtoonwali, the pathans were duty bound to consider the Sikhs in their villages as 'hamsara' and so duty bound to protect them with their lives from neighbouring pathans. This is of course the strangest anomaly because it was the same pathans that raided the plains of Punjab and did most of the killing of Sikhs in Lyallpur etc.

So, you've read every single report, book, document and thesis? I highly doubt that.

No I haven't Proactive. Why would I ? That would not only be obsessive but a waste of my valuable time and resources.

There's been no agreement on the subject,

Yes there has. Pretty much everyone agrees that more than double the amount of muslims were killed than Sikhs.

A Muslim population in East Punjab which had attacked the Sikhs and Hindus in Amritsar city,

We talked about anomalies above and the city of Amritsar articulated this wonderfully. Read the history of the city brother. Despite being our holy city it was always, right up until 1947, an overwhelmingly Muslim city. An anomaly because it's sister city Lahore was far more Sikh and Hindu in character. You see, as sister cities the two cities served each other's needs. Amritsar served as the industrial base for Lahore. So, whilst the Sikhs and Hindus owned the businesses in Amritsar they actually lived in Lahore and commuted the short distance each day. In contrast, it was the Muslims who formed the backbone of the Amritsar workforce of those businesses. Thus, Amritsar was very very Muslim in character and make-up.

As I stated before, I will not entertain any notion of us being the biggest sufferers simlpy because we lost most land, homes and businesses. The day we start to value material possessions over human life is the day we, as a people, de-humanize ourselves. That is not the nature / psyche I want my kids to grow up with.

[proactive]

How can you claim that every book, thesis and report accepts that more Muslims were killed when you haven't read them all. I suggest you stop making blanket statements that cannot be backed up. As I stated earlier there are very few works which look at the complete picture and all of them make estimates and none use accepted scientific methods. So you are basing your argument on estimates.

If your claim is correct and less Sikhs and Hindus were killed than Muslims, then it was not on the want of trying on the part of the Muslims. Sikhs were better organised and their refugee trains were under the control Jathedars of local Akali jathas and included ex-soldiers who knew about defensive tactics.

The Muslim plan was to drive out or make the Sikhs and Hindus into emasculated minorities in West Punjab but leave the Muslim minorities in East Punjab as a fifth column. The Muslim way is always to attack the non-Muslims and when there is retaliation then play the victim card.

You have chosen not at answer the question I asked, what would your advice to the Sikh leadership have been in 1947 based on what was happening around them?

[JSinghnz]

How can you claim that every book, thesis and report accepts that more Muslims were killed when you haven't read them all. I suggest you stop making blanket statements that cannot be backed up. As I stated earlier there are very few works which look at the complete picture and all of them make estimates and none use accepted scientific methods. So you are basing your argument on estimates.

If your claim is correct and less Sikhs and Hindus were killed than Muslims, then it was not on the want of trying on the part of the Muslims. Sikhs were better organised and their refugee trains were under the control Jathedars of local Akali jathas and included ex-soldiers who knew about defensive tactics.

The Muslim plan was to drive out or make the Sikhs and Hindus into emasculated minorities in West Punjab but leave the Muslim minorities in East Punjab as a fifth column. The Muslim way is always to attack the non-Muslims and when there is retaliation then play the victim card.

You have chosen not at answer the question I asked, what would your advice to the Sikh leadership have been in 1947 based on what was happening around them?

No one is going to answer your question ,"You have chosen not at answer the question I asked, what would your advice to the Sikh leadership have been in 1947 based on what was happening around them?"

I believe Mater Tara Singh did the right thing at that time.But you have so many self proclaimed experts today who deny this fact.

[Mehtab Singh]

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74140-communal-riots-hit-pakistan-mob-targets-temples-gurdwaras-over-alleged-blasphemy/

[chatanga]

No I'm not going to do that GPS. We, all of us together, have been down this route before here. Its just a very simple process of doing simple google searches and reading the vast literature on the matter. You can quite easily do that yourself.

isn't that your stock answer every time you are asked to provide ANY evidence for your claims?

Instead your selfish well-read attitude denies us the knowledge you have acquired. We are not asking you to read the info to us, but you can at least put up links to info that you have read, and believe that we should be reading. You can stick up for muslims wholescale murder of Sikhs on a Sikh forum, but can't help your fellow Sikhs with info?

Don't be arrogant over it, just provide the links. Please.

By the same token, its worth remembering how 99% of Pakistan's Sikhs live not in Punjab but in the tribal north west frontier pathan areas. The reason for that is because as per the pathan code of conduct: Pakhtoonwali, the pathans were duty bound to consider the Sikhs in their villages as 'hamsara' and so duty bound to protect them with their lives from neighbouring pathans. This is of course the strangest anomaly because it was the same pathans that raided the plains of Punjab and did most of the killing of Sikhs in Lyallpur etc.

In "a fighting retreat" a book by a British soldier about the end of the empire, he tells of his being in Peshawar in 1947, and after partition was announced, that the local Muslims attacked the Sikh parts of the city. But Im sure you have read this book.

I have spoken to Afghan Sikhs who said their elders left Peshawar in 1947 for Kabul, as it was safer.

Whatever the pakhtunwala is, it didn't protect the SIkhs in 1947 wholesale, they were still attacked and murdered.

Yes there has. Pretty much everyone agrees that more than double the amount of muslims were killed than Sikhs.

No they don't, most people say that as many if not more muslims were killed after partition as the hindus and sikhs before and during partition.

Tell us which accounts write that double died. No doubt their authors will have the surnames ali, abdul etc.

Read the history of the city brother. Despite being our holy city it was always, right up until 1947, an overwhelmingly Muslim city.

You may need to re-read the history of Amritsar city. Until Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule, the city was not a muslim majority. Under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Amritsar became the most important trading post between Delhi and Bukhara, surpassing Lahore. Under Maharaja's rule, Muslim numbers in Amritsar swelled during two phases, one was the expansion of Amritsar as a trading hub, whereby all skilled artisans were invited to Amritsar, esp Kashmiri cloth traders and workers, and then again during the Kashmir famines. Only then did Amritsar city get a Muslim majority city.

And in the Saka of Rawalpindi, before the muslims started killing Sikhs in Rawalpindi Division, they tried to attack the Sikhs in Amritsar city, and attack the Golden Temple itself. They were repulsed by the (minority) Sikhs.

[GPS]

That is correct. Partition is full of anomalies like that. For example, in Jalndhar district, in the villages around Moa Sahib Gurdwara, where Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji was married, there still exist today a cluster of muslim villages that were left unharmed by the Sikhs despite hundreds of thousands of muslims being wiped out in the district as a whole. The reason for that is because when Guru Arjan Dev ji got married there he was given such a warm loving welcome by the local muslims there he described them as his own "beloved muslims" and subsequently a mosque sits within the compounds of the historic Gurdwara there. Sikhs never forgot that and let them be whilst madness prevailed in '47.

That shows brilliant aspect of a sound sikh character. That is enough to prove them to be an aggrieved party who acted in self defence.