Caste System

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

we should all get along fine as sikhs but not forced to give up our history ancestral bloodlines clans nor should we be forced to intermarry with different castes and races if like most we feel content.

jwxhu joiq n pUChu jwqI AwgY jwiq n hy ]1] rhwau ]

jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||

Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||

We should definatly see vaheguru ji jot inside everyone be they jatt terkhan chammar anyone ive missed that doesnt mean you have to marry your daughter to one to proove it.

sMq jnw kI jwiq hir suAwmI qum@ Twkur hm sWgI ]

sa(n)th janaa kee jaath har suaamee thumh t(h)aakur ham saa(n)gee ||

God, the Lord and Master, is the caste and social status of

His humble Saints. You are the Lord and Master; I am just Your puppet.

(note: Waheguroo IS THE CASTE of those who have faith in them. Not Jatt, not Rajput!)

How many of you would marry your sister to a bihari converted to sikhi?

I would. A Sikh is a Sikh is a Sikh.

I know some of you deep down will agree but this being a touchy topic cant openly say it. In the end we can still be one and whoever wants to blend themselves totally go ahead and try it all dues respects when you have cultures clashes thats when youl remember this.

This is my favorite shabad... and this is what I will remember. You say so much about your "ancestory" your "history"... well, lets take it back a few (billion) years and see what Waheguroo has to say:

mwrU mhlw 1 ]

Arbd nrbd DuMDUkwrw ]

Drix n ggnw hukmu Apwrw ]

nw idnu rYin n cMdu n sUrju suMn smwiD lgwiedw ]1]

KwxI n bwxI paux n pwxI ]

Epiq Kpiq n Awvx jwxI ]

KMf pqwl spq nhI swgr ndI n nIru vhwiedw ]2]

nw qid surgu mCu pieAwlw ]

dojku iBsqu nhI KY kwlw ]

nrku surgu nhI jMmxu mrxw nw ko Awie n jwiedw ]3]

bRhmw ibsnu mhysu n koeI ]

Avru n dIsY eyko soeI ]

nwir purKu nhI jwiq n jnmw nw ko duKu suKu pwiedw ]4]

nw qid jqI sqI bnvwsI ]

nw qid isD swiDk suKvwsI ]

jogI jMgm ByKu n koeI nw ko nwQu khwiedw ]5]

jp qp sMjm nw bRq pUjw ]

nw ko AwiK vKwxY dUjw ]

Awpy Awip aupwie ivgsY Awpy kImiq pwiedw ]6]

nw suic sMjmu qulsI mwlw ]

gopI kwnu n gaU

guoAwlw ]

qMqu mMqu pwKMfu n koeI nw ko vMsu vjwiedw ]7]

krm Drm nhI mwieAw mwKI ]

jwiq jnmu nhI dIsY AwKI ]

mmqw jwlu kwlu nhI mwQY nw ko iksY iDAwiedw ]8]

inMdu ibMdu nhI jIau n ijMdo ]

nw qid gorKu nw mwiCMdo ]

nw qid igAwnu iDAwnu kul Epiq nw ko gxq gxwiedw ]9]

vrn ByK nhI bRhmx KqRI ]

dyau n dyhurw gaU gwieqRI ]

hom jg nhI qIriQ nwvxu nw ko pUjw lwiedw ]10]

nw ko mulw nw ko kwjI ]

nw ko syKu mswieku hwjI ]

reIAiq rwau n haumY dunIAw nw ko khxu khwiedw ]11]

Bwau n BgqI nw isv skqI ]

swjnu mIqu ibMdu nhI rkqI ]

Awpy swhu Awpy vxjwrw swcy eyho Bwiedw ]12]

byd kqyb n isMimRiq swsq ]

pwT purwx audY nhI Awsq ]

khqw bkqw Awip Agocru Awpy AlKu lKwiedw ]13]

jw iqsu Bwxw qw jgqu aupwieAw ]

bwJu klw Awfwxu rhwieAw ]

bRhmw ibsnu mhysu aupwey mwieAw mohu vDwiedw ]14]

ivrly kau guir sbdu suxwieAw ]

kir kir dyKY hukmu sbwieAw ]

KMf bRhmMf pwqwl ArMBy gupqhu prgtI Awiedw ]15]

qw kw AMqu n jwxY koeI ]

pUry gur qy soJI hoeI ]

nwnk swic rqy ibsmwdI ibsm Bey gux gwiedw ]16]3]15]

Maaroo, First Mehl:

For endless eons, there was only utter darkness.

There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam.

There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat in primal, profound Samaadhi. ||1||

There were no sources of creation or powers of speech, no air or water.

There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

There were no continents, nether regions, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

There were no heavenly realms, earth or nether regions of the underworld.

There was no heaven or hell, no death or time.

There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going in reincarnation. ||3||

There was no Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva.

No one was seen, except the One Lord.

There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||

T

here were no people of celibacy or charity; no one lived in the forests.

There were no Siddhas or seekers, no one living in peace.

There were no Yogis, no wandering pilgrims, no religious robes; no one called himself the master. ||5||

There was no chanting or meditation, no self-discipline, fasting or worship.

No one spoke or talked in duality.

He created Himself, and rejoiced; He evaluates Himself. ||6||

There was no purification, no self-restraint, no malas of basil seeds.

There were no Gopis, no Krishna, no cows or cowherds.

There were no tantras, no mantras and no hypocrisy; no one played the flute. ||7||

There was no karma, no Dharma, no buzzing fly of Maya.

Social class and birth were not seen with any eyes.

There was no noose of attachment, no death inscribed upon the forehead; no one meditated on anything. ||8||

There was no slander, no seed, no soul and no life.

There was no Gorakh and no Maachhindra.

There was no spiritual wisdom or meditation, no ancestry or creation, no reckoning of accounts. ||9||

There were no castes or social classes, no religious robes, no Brahmin or Kh'shaatriya.

There were no demi-gods or temples, no cows or Gaayatri prayer.

There were no burnt offerings, no ceremonial feasts, no cleansing rituals at sacred shrines of pilgrimage; no one worshipped in adoration. ||10||

There was no Mullah, there was no Qazi.

There was no Shaykh, or pilgrims to Mecca.

There was no king or subjects, and no worldly egotism; no one spoke of himself. ||11||

There was no love or devotion, no Shiva or Shakti - no energy or matter.

There were no friends or companions, no semen or blood.

He Himself is the banker, and He Himself is the merchant. Such is the Pleasure of the Will of the True Lord. ||12||

There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaa

stras.

There was no recitation of the Puraanas, no sunrise or sunset.

The Unfathomable Lord Himself was the speaker and the preacher; the unseen Lord Himself saw everything. ||13||

When He so willed, He created the world.

Without any supporting power, He sustained the universe.

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; He fostered enticement and attachment to Maya. ||14||

How rare is that person who listens to the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

He created the creation, and watches over it; the Hukam of His Command is over all.

He formed the planets, solar systems and nether regions, and brought what was hidden to manifestation. ||15||

No one knows His limits.

This understanding comes from the Perfect Guru.

O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Truth are wonderstruck; singing His Glorious Praises, they are filled with wonder. ||16||3||15||

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Soorma]

Whos discussing social class or caste? Jatts are neither of this, they are simply a different race of people...allow me to explain with a theory.

In one of the "Race" Definitions by Dictionary.com, its defines Race as:

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Race

A genealogical line; a lineage.

So Race is defined as a Lineage.

Race => Lineage =======> (Prop 1)

Lineage is defined as:

dictionary.reference.com/...?q=Lineage

The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

We know this means same as "Clan" something that Dictionary.com defines as:

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Clan

A division of a tribe tracing descent from a common ancestor.

This Proves:

Lineage => Clan (Common Ancestry) ===> Prop(2)

From Prop (1) and Prop (2) we derive that:

Race corresponds to Clan ====> Prop(3)

Jatt Tribe is the Brotherhood thats Bonded together by Clans known as the Jatt Clans. These Clans create a bloodline through Inter Clan Marriages - something that gives Distinctive "Jattish" Characteristics to the Pure Jatt Generation. Characteristics that can be generally observed among Jatts such as Tall Height, Strong Built, Aggressive Temperament, Distinctive Voice Tone etc.

These observations will lead us to the observation that Jatt Tribe is a Distinctive Race.

I also have a DNA test here you guys can take a look at...

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YG92Qe5oz50wq...sikhspu

njab.pdf

[Soorma]

weird document not found :wub: ill try to find another host that might have this study

DNA STUDY

this should work

bro humans havent even been on this earth for a billion years, and Sikhi technically has only been around for 400 some odd years. So what were people on earth before then who beleived in worshipping tree's and the sun? Kafirs?

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

A few more:

pYrIN pY pwKwk huie gurisKW ivc vfI smweI]

pairee(n) pai paakhaak hue gurasikhaa(n) vich vaddee samaaee||

Falling at and becoming the dust of the feet is the great trance for the Sikhs of the Guru (their caste should not be considered).

---

sc Sbd tkswl sc AStDwq iek pwrs mylw]

sach shabadh ttakasaal sach ashattadhhaath eik paaras maelaa||

The true Word is such a true mint where different castes in the from of metals meet the Guru, the philosopher's stone, and become gold (gurmukhs).

(note: all castes, once they have met the guru, only become one)

---

And finally...

gMg bnwrs ihMdUAW muslmwxW mkw kwbw]

ga(n)g banaaras hi(n)dhooaaa(n) musalamaanaa(n) makaa kaabaa||

Hindus adore Ganges and Banaras and Muslims consider Mecca-Kaba as a holy place.

Gir Gir bwbw gwvIAY vjin qwl imRdMgu rbwbw]

ghar ghar baabaa gaaveeai vajan thaal mridha(n)g rabaabaa||

But to the accompaniment of mradang (drum) and rabab (stringed instrument) the praises (of Baba Nanak) are sung in every home.

Bgiq vClu hoie AwieAw piqq auDwrxu Ajbu Ajwbw]

bhagath vashhal hoe aaeiaa pathith oudhhaaran ajab ajaabaa||

Lover of the devotees, he

has come to uplift the downtrodden ones. He himself is wonderful (because in spite of his powers he is egoless).

cwir vrn iek vrn hoie swDsMgiq imil hoie qrwbw]

chaar varan eik varan hoe saadhhasa(n)gath mil hoe tharaabaa||

By His efforts all the four varnas (social castes) have become one and now the individual gets liberated in the holy congregation.

cMdnu vwsu vxwspiq Avil dom n sym Krwbw]

cha(n)dhan vaas vanaasapath aval dhom n saem kharaabaa||

Like the fragrance of sandal, He without any discrimination makes every one fragrant.

hukmY AMdir sB ko kudriq iks dI krY jvwbw]

hukamai a(n)dhar sabh ko kudharath kis dhee karai javaabaa||

All act as ordained by Him and no one has the power to say no to Him.

jwhr pIru jgqu gur bwbw ]ô]

jaahar peer jagath gur baabaa ||a||

Such grand Guru (Nanak) is the manifest spiritual teacher of the whole world.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Soorma]

cwir vrn iek vrn hoie swDsMgiq imil hoie qrwbw]chaar varan eik varan hoe saadhhasa(n)gath mil hoe tharaabaa||

By His efforts all the four varnas (social castes) have become one and now the individual gets liberated in the holy congregation.

Khalsa I have provided you evidence of Jatts being a race and even a scientific study to back this claim up...Jatts are not a caste man, we are a race that fall into the Muslim, Hindu and Sikh community...I'm actually more of an Athiest then Sikh to tell you the truth.

That scientific study was also carried out with the help of both Jatts and non-Jatts...so its not even biased, please take a look at it. It even states in there that they are actually of Scythian stock and have not originated in India...they cant be part of the caste system :wub:

The study is also fairly recent...about 1998.

[Khalsa4ever]

weird document not found :wub: ill try to find another host that might have this study

DNA STUDY

this should work

bro humans havent even been on this earth for a billion years, and Sikhi technically has only been around for 400 some odd years. So what were people on earth before then who beleived in worshipping tree's and the sun? Kafirs?

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

That's an interesting study. It shows that these alleles which are a "defining characteristic" in Jatts only exist in 10-20% of the "Jatt" population!!! (page 4)

so 80-90% OF THE JATTS DON'T EVEN HAVE THEM! SO HOW DO YOU CALL THEM A DIFFERENT RACE IF THEY DON'T EVEN SHARE THE SAME GENE LINEAGE?!

According to those results, "Indians" have an allele size 208-248.. omg! so do Jatts!

And "Jatts" are 82% heterozygotes... but so are 86% of in

dians!!! In fact, if you look at the graph on the next page, that data ISN'T EVEN STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT!!!

Thank you for proving my point :TH:

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Soorma]

you are forgetting one thing tho, this study was done in 1998...the Jatt population in Punjab is also down considerably after 1970+...actually the majority of Jatts now live abroad...this study is to show you that the theory of them being a race is quite evident and has phsyical proof to back that up.

Also read where it says "randomly selected" there is a good possibility that there could of been non-Jatts taken with Jatt surnames...again, this study was to show you the theory behind Jatts being a race is a strong one.

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Only one problem with that. The study does NOT make it evident and in fact shows that the genotypes are the SAME implying that there is NO difference between an Indian and a Jatt! (But you can feel proud that your genes are different from Caucasians my friend! :wub: )

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Soorma]

well thats almost impossible to do since Scythians were around northwest India possibly a thousand years before Christ...all you can really go on is physical evidence, such as landmarks, clan names, eye colour variations, height, build, hair colour, facial characteristics etc. Again, this is a theory, but this is the only one that actually has proof.

There are also many scholars/historians/professors that have said that Jatts can be classified as a race. Professor Mcleod (University of Cambridge), H.S. Duleh, Dr. Babar Singh Dhillon, Rose etc.

Again, dont forget "randomly-selected".

The Scythians were also known as the most feircest warriors, avid hunters, avid horsemen and had conquered many lands when coming towards northwest India and Pakistan....so where did these people vanish? Such a strong race of kings/soldiers, that had stemmed all the way from Eastern Europe...and they just vanish all of a sudden? Doesnt add up.

[V]

Wicked response Khalsa4ever

Keep the wicked posts coming :doh:

REALLY HADD-THOR :wub:

Soorma ur rather a Racist than a Caste-ist ? :D

and ur responses are really weak at th emoment - why follow and keep pride in sometihng which aint gonn give u anyhting?!?

Now about Sikhs and Panjabis -

The physical differences between the black-skinned Dravidian races of southern and eastern India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka and the Caucasoid Aryan races mainly comprising of upper caste Hindus and Sikhs is not the mere design of European colonialist historians, but a fact of human existence in the apartheid state of India.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pasa.html

int he end fo the day Guru Maharaj ji already decleared -

QUOTE

jwiq brn kul shsw cUkw gurmiq sbid bIcwrI ]1]  Social class and status, race, ancestry and skepticism are eliminated, following the Guru`s Teachings and contemplating the Word of the Shabad. ||1||  ang 1198 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...lish=t&id=51531 Now Soorma, aka Desivide, aka Son of Scsdfakdfnasdfns read to what Guru Maharaj ji is saying and if you're a Sikh of the Guru you will cut the of races right now after reading the quote from maharaj above!!! Bhull chukk maaf Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!