Darbar Hall Seperation

[Pakandi baba]

I never said it was a social meeting place. Actually I do watch Sikh channels. No u are wrong, as there are people with disabilities who cannot sit on there own, like me now, so I would need somebody to sit with me, and no we would not be talking about home affairs. That's ur thinking only. Why can't a family sit together at the gurdwara. Nowhere does it say they can't unless u prove it. Next u will say if u can't sit on ur own u should not go to the gurdwara.

I'm talking about people who r unable to sit on their own, not those that are able to.

You're an exception then. I've seen a few disabled people sitting with others to help/care so not sure what more you want. Point is, it's the system, and I agree with it as do the majority. It'll never ever change for the abled-bodied.

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[Pakandi baba]

Traditionaly Sikh Gurdwaras (dharamsalas) were exactly that. A place for Sikhs to meet with each other, sit with each other as a community. Our history here in the west is founded on that very basis, with the Gurdwara acting as a focal point for new arrivas to access help and information. We see that even today with the thousands of Italian Sikh families arriving each year from Italy into the UK. The first place they go for help and guidance is the Gurdwara.

This discussion has lost it's way a little in that most posters do not seem to understand a very simple fact. And that fact is that the sexes sitting together is the taditional way, i.e the way it is in practically every village Gurdwara in Punjab. This separation of the sexes that we find in our Gurdwaras in the UK, Canada and America etc is the relatively modern way of doing things. I think many of you seem to have this fact upside down - the wrong way round, mistakingly thinking separattion is the traditional way. Makes alot of this coversation rather topsy turvy, with people liking the modern 'western' way calling the traditionalists "modern" and 'western" for stressing the traditional way. :stupidme:

The Darbar section has never been a social meeting place. You sit there to pray, contemplate, worship.

The Gurdwaras in my Village operate in the same way. Women one side, men the other. Your mention of the 'Western way' is invalid as the Christian congregation sit in a mixed environment. :cool2:

[Pakandi baba]

I think you'll find that grisht jiwan is the highest form of bhakti training....Guru ji said so any fool can run for the hills and claim to have conquered his/her indrian ... A single person with three kids under two years cannot physically cope alone if more than one child cries... And what is the problem with where someone sits if they have full dhian in Guru and bani? SUrely the problem is with the man who trundled over to create ruckus in darbar disturbing others more than ourselves, who were sitting right at the back of the hall not in any persons eyeline , sitting in shantmai avaasta taking in amritbani. We were bringing our kids to Guru ji's charan to learn and what our son learnt is you can sit quietly and have random bossey/nosey persons grab up on you just cause they feel they know everything? It's amazing that so far I have heard all the guys be negative about the women but guys you 'push' the family aside to serve your own selfish want , surely you have a duty to share and ensure Guru ji's message lives in the hearts of all your family? Maybe I am naive to believe that your protective role extends that far but honestly it would be wonderful if every Singh and SInghni did that for each other and the new generation

Well Sangat has managed so far? why suddenly the need to integrate the genders in the Darbar Sahib? once you exit, there are ample opportunities to mingle with your families as happens currently. Apart from the odd child running about I've yet to see an influx of so called unruly children running amok.

[Pakandi baba]

Veer ji

go in any pind any city centre you'll find loads of babey sitting together talking nonstop , oh I'm sorry they are not gossiping, nah just speaking about highly important metaphysical matters while eyeing up the womenfolk going back and forth doing their duties.

You cannot generalise like that it shows your lack of understanding and definitely immaturity.

I've been, yes a rare few do, but here in the UK my place of residence is where I can comment. It's a fact, deny it or don't. Some men do too, but very rarely. Now for the sake of being PC this is probably offensive but Gurbani says Sach is sach no matter how kora [sour/bitter/chilli] it is.

[jkvlondon]

Well Sangat has managed so far? why suddenly the need to integrate the genders in the Darbar Sahib? once you exit, there are ample opportunities to mingle with your families as happens currently. Apart from the odd child running about I've yet to see an influx of so called unruly children running amok.

My point was not about unruly kids so much, but creating an aura of familial togetherness/oneness in larger sangat at darbar which can become second nature/replicated when outside in world/home in smaller sangat. When it feels like a natural state of being it is automatic point of return of dhian: just like doing sadhana, effort at first but then kirpa happens. The point is we haven't been doing so well up until now ...the kids are seperate from parents/grandparents on an emotional/intellectual level as well as spiritual one that's why people are worried about what is happening in the kalyugi duniya to Sikhi. When we faced opppressors we had togetherness of focus and aim that is why we were strong as a panth, now the days of sukh have had their toll and we have scattered to the four winds . We need to regroup....

[simran345]

You're an exception then. I've seen a few disabled people sitting with others to help/care so not sure what more you want. Point is, it's the system, and I agree with it as do the majority. It'll never ever change for the abled-bodied.

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I don't want anything, I'm just wondering why some people oppose families sitting together and how th separation all started, like th original poster.

[JagsawSingh]

The Gurdwaras in my Village operate in the same way. Women one side, men the other

Well thats strange to say the least. All the Gurdwaras in my village, surrounding villages and the large historic Gurdwaras have men and females sitting together on any side they want.

Your mention of the 'Western way' is invalid as the Christian congregation sit in a mixed environment.

Didn't say anything about 'Christianity', as it is, after all, a middle eastern religion.

I said 'western' for two reasons. Firstly because the first poster on this thread who opposed the traditional way described men and women sitting together as the 'western' way. And secondly, because, as this men and women separate system is a system that has its origins in Gurdwaras in countries such as the UK, Canada and America, I am pretty sure that each of these countries fall within the definition of the 'west'.

Therefore, those that advocate the separation of males and females in the Gurdwara are, by very definition, 'western' and 'modern' and at odds with Sikh tradition.

Like I said, a very topsy turvy state of affairs.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

There is no requirement to sit separately. My wife, children and I have sat together without issue - nobody in the Sangat was surprised or bothered and this is in multiple Gurudwaras (family with young kids need both parents to manage at times). There is no Maryada requirement for separation. Anyone who tells you otherwise is making up rules. Now, given the many reasons above, along with the prevention of any miscreants doing incorrect things with the opposite gender, there may have been an evolution of convenience, but it is not mandated by any means.

[skaur8888]

I just got back from the gurdwara, it was like a circus - children running around and shouting in the darbar hall, people busy greeting and hugging each other with their back to Guruji, doing metha tek and going straight down to langar. phones going off, why are people so disrespectful - they have all week to chat and spend time with relatives, why bother coming to gurdwara if they can't put their own needs aside to respect our Guru. there's a lot of ignorance and I'm shocked how people behave in the gurdwara, unless you're very enlightened person - these petty behaviours can affect others and puts me off going especially when there's big celebrations - the gorah that were there showed more respect then our own people. Does anyone know if people behave in India like this or is it just the UK?

[jkvlondon]

I just got back from the gurdwara, it was like a circus - children running around and shouting in the darbar hall, people busy greeting and hugging each other with their back to Guruji, doing metha tek and going straight down to langar. phones going off, why are people so disrespectful - they have all week to chat and spend time with relatives, why bother coming to gurdwara if they can't put their own needs aside to respect our Guru. there's a lot of ignorance and I'm shocked how people behave in the gurdwara, unless you're very enlightened person - these petty behaviours can affect others and puts me off going especially when there's big celebrations - the gorah that were there showed more respect then our own people. Does anyone know if people behave in India like this or is it just the UK?

Penji,

everywhere I've been gurudwarey abroad people sat in family groups that is in India, Assam, Nepal,Singapore,Sikkim nobody behaves like the cheekchugiarda here in UK . Nobody sits chatting like they are in their own living room , no-one dresses inappropriately (worst one was at Karamsar gurudwara Ilford during the day, a lady wandered in wearing white linen pedalpushers where you could her lack of coverage underneath when she matha tekked, needless to say the bazurg bibian took her aside and castigated her)

Problem here is people seem to think they give money into golak so gurudwara belongs to them , they would never behave that way in front of the Queen or dress that way, yet they do so in front of the King of Kings. It is sickening .