Being A Rich Sikh

[Guest Jacfsing2]

You were saying I wasn't giving anything to the poor so I wanted to point out that 45% of what I earn goes to the poor.

You think Sikhs shouldn't spend money on expensive items but I disagree which is why I mentionned the Guru advocating that Sikhs should dress well. We dont have to dress like labourers.

I think it's ridiculous that your upset on what I spend my money on. The original question was - can sikh people buy expensive things and the answer is yes. The guru said you can buy expensive things - Sikhs can dress in designer wear etc

The problem is people become 'haters' but I can and I am allowed to spend my money on what - I already do enough for the poor and in all honesty people at my level don't bother helping poor people because they already pay 45% tax to help the poor and all that poor people do is complain and want more and more of the rich people's money and start accusing the rich rather than working hard themselves. I know that final sentence is going to sting but perhaps you should stop being judgemental about what rich people spend their money on. I think sikhi teaches one to not judge.

Also it is very easy for poor people to say the rich don't help them but in reality the poor get the most help and put the least into the system. Just look at the free education, free healthcare, free housing, free money in the UK welfare system that comes off the rich. I don't get to use any of these services. Also it wasn't a purse but I am not going to tell you what it was because your judgemental on the spend of others hard earned money.

That's all good and all, but you still have to pay Dasvand as well. Governments fall and crash, Guru Sahib Sikhi doesn't fall, as he created it as a gift for humanity not humanity creating something selfish to give them power.

[Guest --]

That's all good and all, but you still have to pay Dasvand as well. Governments fall and crash, Guru Sahib Sikhi doesn't fall, as he created it as a gift for humanity not humanity creating something selfish to give them power.

Sikh history shows that dasvand was created when there was no tax. Dasvand is not in addition to tax. (See story on creation of Dasvand). The purpose of Dasvand is to help the poorest members of society. I already give over 4 times dasvand in the form of tax that goes directly towards the greater good of society to help poor people (Sikhs and non Sikhs). Dasvand was not meant to be for the gurdwara keeping - it was supposed to be for society (see story on sikh Masands and Dasvand). Therefore the tax I give is dasvand. This is in line with Sikh philosophy (Bhai Kaniya story on helping all in need and not just Sikhs)

There are many Sikhs who are wrongly convinced by gurdwara and sikh organisations that they must give 10% dasvand in addition to tax otherwise they are not following sikhi. This is incorrect and Sikhs do not need to give dasvand money on top of tax. The gurdwara and sikh groups will want you to believe otherwise as they want your money (conflict of interest) but read history and you will realise that the tax you pay is dasvand - Guru said it should be for the global system and in the current system we are already paying our dasvand through tax.

I know some Sikhs think they will get bad luck or that if they pay dasvand that they will get good luck, be successful, have wishes come true and that God will like them. In my opinion this is superstitious and the wrong reason to pay the gurdwara. You pay the gurdwara if you personally believe in its project work.

In my opinion projects only worth funding are those that help social mobility and the poorest - both Sikhs and non Sikhs. Most gurdwara projects do not do this eg building wedding hall next to gurdwara, putting gold on Golden temple. None of this helps society. Sikhs don't need wedding halls to party, and the Golden temple doesn't need Gold (the Guru built it simplistically without Gold - Maharaja Ranjit Singh put Gold on it).

Regarding the problems in India - issues exist due to the way the Government prioritises and handles its affairs and the few opportunities for social mobility in a developing countr due to its infrastructure combined with cultural issues of prejudice, sexism, caste etc. The only way to change this is to create social mobility opportunities which is done by engaging with government rather than viewing them as 'evil' or selfish. The job of government is to create a country that can prosper. And yes they have lots of power as they can change laws, change salaries eg minimum wage but we have to also remember that the government do not have money to give away for free. It is not fair to expect the rich to keep paying more and more. The solution is to give poor people opportunity to have social mobility and to make money themselves.

[Akalifauj]

You were saying I wasn't giving anything to the poor so I wanted to point out that 45% of what I earn goes to the poor.

Taxes go to the government and they spend it to fund many programs, facilities, road, utilities, etc. It doesn't go to the poor. You are a snob for thinking it goes to the poor. Tax dollars pay for healthcare, education, policing, etc. I am surprised, snobs like you don't use government employees as your personal servants. And in fact you don't like the fact "your" earnings are being used to fund the community. Here you are whining about it

This also means I am on the highes tax rate where half my salary goes away as tax (sigh).

You think Sikhs shouldn't spend money on expensive items but I disagree which is why I mentionned the Guru advocating that Sikhs should dress well. We dont have to dress like labourers.

The Gurus don't advocate Sikhs to dress well as you want to view it. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji was a farmer, your Guru was a laborer and surely wore clothes for farming. Sorry sis, but us lowly humans can't compete with you higher class snobs. Even Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is a lowly person in your eyes for dressing like a laborer. For the Guru, dressing well doesn't mean expensive items or spending 1000 pounds on one item. Stop using Sikhi as an escape root for your personal mistakes.

I think it's ridiculous that your upset on what I spend my money on. The original question was - can sikh people buy expensive things and the answer is yes. The guru said you can buy expensive things - Sikhs can dress in designer wear etc

I am not upset about you spending money on anything. I could careless. You were used as an example to show how the Gurus don't approve of such behavior. Show me where the Guru says you can buy expensive things? Only a fool would think Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji dressed like a king to say Sikhs can dress like Kings. Read some history and you find out how the Rulers of the Gurus times were not allowing the "average" person wear certain items and keep certain things. The 10th Guru put a stop to this oppression by wearing robes of Kings, kalgi, shastars, keeping horses, large army, etc. Today Sikhs are stopped from wearing the 5 Kakkar. So live up to your Gurus goals and tell us kindly, if you have any of the 5 Kakkar? And if you do, how long is your kirpan, I hope it's not the one you can hide under your expensive clothes and your Kara is skinnier than a hair?

The problem is people become 'haters' but I can and I am allowed to spend my money on what - I already do enough for the poor and in all honesty people at my level don't bother helping poor people because they already pay 45% tax to help the poor and all that poor people do is complain and want more and more of the rich people's money and start accusing the rich rather than working hard themselves. I know that final sentence is going to sting but perhaps you should stop being judgemental about what rich people spend their money on. I think sikhi teaches one to not judge.

Haters................What up G.....thrown them gang signs up..........drop it like its hot.........LOL............Damn you on a whole different level......you be running them tea parties.........with yaa gurlz.............life is so tough when you gotta pay for some poor farmer.....factory working Gurmukhs.............why he sitting around meditating......get up off your a** and do something productive...........lazy poor people. You know what we should do with them..............round all of them up and do what Hilter did..............gas these foools.........good for nothin

Also it is very easy for poor people to say the rich don't help them but in reality the poor get the most help and put the least into the system. Just look at the free education, free healthcare, free housing, free money in the UK welfare system that comes off the rich. I don't get to use any of these services. Also it wasn't a purse but I am not going to tell you what it was because your judgemental on the spend of others hard earned money.

Anyone want to take the course called Snob 101, please contact 'Richaswell (sigh)', and if you know where her 45% tax dollars are please contact this hotline immediately......

btw................someone makes more money in a year than you would in 10 years and this person don't buy expensive things or is a snob like yourself or goes against his Gurus wishes or blames poor people. This someone isn't too far away either.....mega LOL. You got served son...........you ain't got nothin on no one.............tryin to be all Hollywood........

[Guest --]

Taxes go to the government and they spend it to fund many programs, facilities, road, utilities, etc. It doesn't go to the poor. You are a snob for thinking it goes to the poor. Tax dollars pay for healthcare, education, policing, etc. I am surprised, snobs like you don't use government employees as your personal servants. And in fact you don't like the fact "your" earnings are being used to fund the community. Here you are whining about it

The Gurus don't advocate Sikhs to dress well as you want to view it. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji was a farmer, your Guru was a laborer and surely wore clothes for farming. Sorry sis, but us lowly humans can't compete with you higher class snobs. Even Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is a lowly person in your eyes for dressing like a laborer. For the Guru, dressing well doesn't mean expensive items or spending 1000 pounds on one item. Stop using Sikhi as an escape root for your personal mistakes.

I am not upset about you spending money on anything. I could careless. You were used as an example to show how the Gurus don't approve of such behavior. Show me where the Guru says you can buy expensive things? Only a fool would think Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji dressed like a king to say Sikhs can dress like Kings. Read some history and you find out how the Rulers of the Gurus times were not allowing the "average" person wear certain items and keep certain things. The 10th Guru put a stop to this oppression by wearing robes of Kings, kalgi, shastars, keeping horses, large army, etc. Today Sikhs are stopped from wearing the 5 Kakkar. So live up to your Gurus goals and tell us kindly, if you have any of the 5 Kakkar? And if you do, how long is your kirpan, I hope it's not the one you can hide under your expensive clothes and your Kara is skinnier than a hair?

Haters................What up G.....thrown them gang signs up..........drop it like its hot.........LOL............Damn you on a whole different level......you be running them tea parties.........with yaa gurlz.............life is so tough when you gotta pay for some poor farmer.....factory working Gurmukhs.............why he sitting around meditating......get up off your a** and do something productive...........lazy poor people. You know what we should do with them..............round all of them up and do what Hilter did..............gas these foools.........good for nothin

Anyone want to take the course called Snob 101, please contact 'Richaswell (sigh)', and if you know where her 45% tax dollars are please contact this hotline immediately......

btw................someone makes more money in a year than you would in 10 years and this person don't buy expensive things or is a snob like yourself or goes against his Gurus wishes or blames poor people. This someone isn't too far away either.....mega LOL. You got served son...........you ain't got nothin on no one.............tryin to be all Hollywood........

How old are you? Your clearly upset and are now attacking me personally and asking about my kakkars and are going off on tangents about tea parties, hollywood (did the TV tell you that?). I hate to disappoint you but that's not the reality. Your also taking things out of context. Labourers are anyone working eg builders and not just farmers - The point I was making was that it is ok to dress different and there is nothing bad or snobby about it. Snobby is when you look down on people and I certainly don't treat people differently based on their wealth - I think you do however!

There is a famous sikhi of the 10th Guru vs Rishi Sant about why the Guru did not wear a simple loin cloth like other holy men of the time and the Guru replied that times had changed and in kaljug for holy people to have an effect on the world around them they need to dress up. I know you don't like this Sakhi but the Guru approves of us to dress in a good roop.

Also dasvand is supposed to be for the system. In the UK government system it goes into the system for the poorer members of society via all the government projects. The government funds many Sikh projects in the name of community allowance like gurmat camps and charity work. Policy making is important - are you saying the government doesn't help the poor? In the UK it certainly does by the free eduction for all, free healthcare, free housing etc, creating opportunities for social mobility, funding community work and this comes from tax.

I am not clear on what you expect to be done differently. I get the feeling you want cash payments to the gurdwara only who do not give free education, free housing and from what I have seen mainly spend it on maintenance and building work but that is not the answer. We have to realise that the less well off are in that position because they have no opportunity to make money so creating opportunity for them is the way to help. In the gurus time the system was different - there was no free education, free housing, free meals, so the Guru created 10% dasvand to help create a system where certain parts of society were not neglected. We already have a system in the UK where we have a welfare state which is doing the job of dasvand.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

How old are you? Your clearly upset and are now attacking me personally and asking about my kakkars and are going off on tangents about tea parties, hollywood (did the TV tell you that?). I hate to disappoint you but that's not the reality. Your also taking things out of context. Labourers are anyone working eg builders and not just farmers - The point I was making was that it is ok to dress different and there is nothing bad or snobby about it. Snobby is when you look down on people and I certainly don't treat people differently based on their wealth - I think you do however!

There is a famous sikhi of the 10th Guru vs Rishi Sant about why the Guru did not wear a simple loin cloth like other holy men of the time and the Guru replied that times had changed and in kaljug for holy people to have an effect on the world around them they need to dress up. I know you don't like this Sakhi but the Guru approves of us to dress in a good roop.

Also dasvand is supposed to be for the system. In the UK government system it goes into the system for the poorer members of society via all the government projects. The government funds many Sikh projects in the name of community allowance like gurmat camps and charity work. Policy making is important - are you saying the government doesn't help the poor? In the UK it certainly does by the free eduction for all, free healthcare, free housing etc, creating opportunities for social mobility, funding community work and this comes from tax.

I am not clear on what you expect to be done differently. I get the feeling you want cash payments to the gurdwara only who do not give free education, free housing and from what I have seen mainly spend it on maintenance and building work but that is not the answer. We have to realise that the less well off are in that position because they have no opportunity to make money so creating opportunity for them is the way to help. In the gurus time the system was different - there was no free education, free housing, free meals, so the Guru created 10% dasvand to help create a system where certain parts of society were not neglected. We already have a system in the UK where we have a welfare state which is doing the job of dasvand.

There were taxes in Mughal India, there was even Jaiza Tax for non-Muslims, a problem is the government forces you to pay taxes, you're not forced to pay Daswand. You're Daswand doesn't have to go to a Sikh Institution, but it should go into a cause you believe in. America has high taxes as well, but that isn't an excuse not to pay Daswand, the Government provides for Schools, Security, Military, Health-Care, Free-Housing, and Social-Welfare. But that's not the same as paying a Dasvand because that goes to government for ANYTHING IT WANTS, that could mean that all 45% of your taxes are going into something stupid, like researching the difference between Green and Pink, which they do because they have your money, IT COULD GO INTO SINFUL ACTS AS WELL! Example, if you lived during Margaret Thatcher time, she paid the SAS with Taxes to help the Indian Government kill Sikhs and attack Harmandir Sahib. AND YOU'D BE PART OF THE REASON, guilty you.

[jkvlondon]

There were taxes in Mughal India, there was even Jaiza Tax for non-Muslims, a problem is the government forces you to pay taxes, you're not forced to pay Daswand. You're Daswand doesn't have to go to a Sikh Institution, but it should go into a cause you believe in. America has high taxes as well, but that isn't an excuse not to pay Daswand, the Government provides for Schools, Security, Military, Health-Care, Free-Housing, and Social-Welfare. But that's not the same as paying a Dasvand because that goes to government for ANYTHING IT WANTS, that could mean that all 45% of your taxes are going into something stupid, like researching the difference between Green and Pink, which they do because they have your money, IT COULD GO INTO SINFUL ACTS AS WELL! Example, if you lived during Margaret Thatcher time, she paid the SAS with Taxes to help the Indian Government kill Sikhs and attack Harmandir Sahib. AND YOU'D BE PART OF THE REASON, guilty you.

Daswand is that important that it is also in Christianity it is a covenant between you and Akal Purakh to show your gratitude for all the unginnat bakhsishan you receive all the time ...if you don't give your daswandh/tithe you are aghiratghan simple

yes gareeb da muh is Guru da golak but the other organisation eat most for themselves and very small amount goes to the poor , if you want to do dhan do it yourself , do the sewa

[Guest --]

There were taxes in Mughal India, there was even Jaiza Tax for non-Muslims, a problem is the government forces you to pay taxes, you're not forced to pay Daswand. You're Daswand doesn't have to go to a Sikh Institution, but it should go into a cause you believe in. America has high taxes as well, but that isn't an excuse not to pay Daswand, the Government provides for Schools, Security, Military, Health-Care, Free-Housing, and Social-Welfare. But that's not the same as paying a Dasvand because that goes to government for ANYTHING IT WANTS, that could mean that all 45% of your taxes are going into something stupid, like researching the difference between Green and Pink, which they do because they have your money, IT COULD GO INTO SINFUL ACTS AS WELL! Example, if you lived during Margaret Thatcher time, she paid the SAS with Taxes to help the Indian Government kill Sikhs and attack Harmandir Sahib. AND YOU'D BE PART OF THE REASON, guilty you.

There is corruption everywhere. There is corruption in the gurdwara. Also do you believe giving to the gurdwara helps those in need? I don't see the gurdwara giving housing, giving money for free education. In the current UK system wehave a welfare state so our taxes do help the poorest members of society. This system is not in the rest of the world - In India even now there is no welfare state.

Out my 45% tax it will pay the salary of 6 school teachers for one whole year who teach the children of the UK for free or the salary of 4 junior doctors for one year to treat people for free. On top of this I will sponsor my friends like marathons etc but having the attitude that it is compulsory for me to give 10% on top of my taxes or that I am not paying dasvand as its not in the gurdwara is incorrect.

Personally the gurdwara dasvand does not help those in need. All I see is the gurdwara making a bigger building and have yet to come across causes the gurdwara does. I would be very thankful for people to list the things the gurdwara has done with their dasvand money that have helped change lives. If you compare this to what the UK government does then you will realise that your taxes are dasvand and giving anything on top is personal choice.

[Akalifauj]

There is a famous sikhi of the 10th Guru vs Rishi Sant about why the Guru did not wear a simple loin cloth like other holy men of the time and the Guru replied that times had changed and in kaljug for holy people to have an effect on the world around them they need to dress up.

I wonder which insecure Sikh made this sakhi up. Anyway, let's go through the list of holy people in Sikhi and you tell me which one of them dressed up and spent 1000 pounds or similar on one item:

Here is a list of holy people who did not follow your fabricated Sakhi:

Bhai Mani Singh ji

Baba Deep Singh ji

Bhai Taru Singh ji

Bhai Daya Singh ji

Bhai Himmat Singh ji

Bhai Kanhaiya ji

Baba Gurbaksh Singh ji

Sant Nand Singh ji

Sant Sundar Singh ji

Sant Gurbachan Singh ji

Sant Kartar Singh ji

Sant Jarnail Singh ji

Akali Phula Singh ji

Bhai Dharam Singh ji

Bhai Mokham Singh ji

Bhai Sahib singh ji

According to you none of these great souls had an effect on the world because they did not dress up like your fabricated Sakhi.

[hsingh8963]

My Friend, At heart I think you are a good person, for that fact that you came here to ask the Sangat's Opinions.

The thing is that 45% tax goes to ALOT of other stuff not the needed, think of Sikhs who are not rich, they still pay dasvand....

Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib Wale, Think of how much Maya came to Rara Sahib, yet they made due with just their Pension money.

My point is Take out Dasvand as it is Guru Maharaj's HUKAM, if you claim that it is not needed anymore then there are alot of things Nastik People can argue are not needed in modern times, there are people that claim that Amrit Vela is no longer important as now we lead busy lives... (NOT CALLING YOU A NASTIK!!!)

So Take out the Dasvand... Help the poor at any chance you get...

And then go ahead buy whatever you want Just remember to keep Rehit, and not let the flow of Maya take over you

Money isn't the only way to help others out! That's importnat for all to remember!

[jkvlondon]

My Friend, At heart I think you are a good person, for that fact that you came here to ask the Sangat's Opinions.

The thing is that 45% tax goes to ALOT of other stuff not the needed, think of Sikhs who are not rich, they still pay dasvand....

Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib Wale, Think of how much Maya came to Rara Sahib, yet they made due with just their Pension money.

My point is Take out Dasvand as it is Guru Maharaj's HUKAM, if you claim that it is not needed anymore then there are alot of things Nastik People can argue are not needed in modern times, there are people that claim that Amrit Vela is no longer important as now we lead busy lives... (NOT CALLING YOU A NASTIK!!!)

So Take out the Dasvand... Help the poor at any chance you get...

And then go ahead buy whatever you want Just remember to keep Rehit, and not let the flow of Maya take over you

Money isn't the only way to help others out! That's importnat for all to remember!

daswand is from ALL YOUR BLESSINGS that includes time , money, health