Are Sikh Families Patriarchal?

[Ranjeet01]

http://www.jakara.org/openletter

Just saw this open letter from Jakara Movement, where it talks about Sexual Abuse Awareness Month.

I am a bit perplexed about this organisation particularly in the context of their make up, it seems to be some kind of Sikh feminist group based in the U.S.

In their open letter, they state that British Sikhs are the forefront of speaking out against grooming by "some" Muslim men. Being based in the U.S., I do not think that they are in a position to make assumptions about the UK, clearly now that the evidence is coming out how widespread the grooming incidents are in the UK and how large these grooming networks are and the complicit cover up by the social services and the police, so to downplay it as "some" muslim men is an insult to the victims.

As I read further down and they mention how there is a bigger problem of assault and sexual abuse in our community. Now I do not know what this particulars about this within our community, we are no angels but I do not think it would be worse than other communities.

If there is a big problem, then yes it needs to be tackled.

However, I am always concerned with this particular issue with Sikh females in that everything is blamed on "patriarchy".

In Gupt Folder, there was a conversation about the mother in law- daughter in law problems which is a universal problem BETWEEN WOMEN and is about the POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN WOMEN yet some how it is somehow the fault the patriarchy.

Why is this word "patriarchy" banded as an evil word. The word patriarchy means "rule of the father".On the other post about the Birmingham Sikh getting beaten by 5 or 6 muslim males, he got into the altercation because his cousin sister was being harassed, he tried to protect her. Is that Patriarchy, has he been oppressing his sister because of his need to protect his sister.

Some of you maybe fathers and brothers, but I for one am fed up with this Sikh male bashing.

[MisterrSingh]

Males are being bashed all over, no matter what colour, race, or faith. Thankfully, some are waking up to this systematic onslaught, albeit subtle and on many fronts, and are doing their best to help those stuck in the mire, or even the youngsters coming up, to open their eyes. That's not to negate the serious problems of sexual abuse perpetuated by males. I guess decent, God-fearing Muslims must feel frustrated when they're all targeted for the actions of a sizable few of their kind.

But for a Sikh organisation to come out with something like that isn't surprising. If only they paid more attention to their Sikhi instead of following their feminist doctrine with such passion, they'd realise the reality of matters.

Stuff like this doesn't bode well for us, particularly in the west. It's always our lot that breaks rank. Other groups have a siege mentality and a "backs against the wall" ethos when they feel they're being unfairly targeted; Sikhs do the opposite and turn on each other without any provocation, in effect doing the opposition's work for them! I've never experienced or seen similar behaviour from any other group but ours. The same old story.

[N30S1NGH]

I totally agree with above posts of veers..According to my understanding, sikhi neither supports raw patriarchy model nor raw western feminism model. Sikhi is neutral and above both, as gurmat functions/ operates flows from unconditioned knowledge-awareness/gyan which exist in both male and female but beyond both perception of body/sexes differences, soul is universal is above from both sexes.

Coming back to post Guru's history though, in all fairness, women in our community went through a lot. Sikh women went from centers (maniya system) established* for them by our Guru's in guru's time to house wives.

*There were manji system (centers establishment where gursikhs were chosen to do parchar) was started by Guru Amar das ji, they were 22 manjiya initially strategically placed everywhere in india to do parchar. Here is the list of manjiya http://www.sikhiwiki...hp/Manji_System and there were manjiya given to sikh woman as well to do parchar to other woman and give them empowerment.

Here is thread dedicated to Sikh woman Parcharikhs/Sants

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70272-thread-dedicated-to-sikh-woman-parcharikhssants/

[cool water]

I think the laughable jakara movement in the US is dangerously anti-sikh, its many contributors are feminist militant ideologically aligned and they not have any or much pro-sikh credentials.

Our Sikhs should challenge people behind jakara and Sikh women organisational groups because i remember they posted a video few years back where so called Sikh women in short mini skirts were asking if men can go clubs why cant we? Like hello your a Sikh woman and as a person of faith you shouldnt be concerned about going club or not as a Sikh woman you uphold the values of what a Sikh woman does ie be modest and dress modestly you dont see muslim women on muslim videos promoting why cant they go clubs if muslim guys can what the hell is it with some moronic women without our community that been brain washed with this very dangerous version of feminist sikhism? where did this come about? "oh i love my anti-sikh boyfriend because god says we are all one and it doesnt matter what your partner follows" come on our women in our faith really that messed up these days. If so then movements like jakara are to blame for brainwashing girls in the wrong direction and not brainwashing them in to increasing the number of Sikhs in the world.

Feminist twisted version of Sikhs blames all the ill's on men and does not promote the virtues of women in fact it promotes hatred of men. Personally I would not allow any platform and discussion of domestic abuse of women unless they is domestic abuse of men and domestic abuse against kids which mothers usually are guilty of. I have seen in many households the woman will instigate verbal or emotional abuse on males within her family which can lead to retaliatory verbal or physical abuse. Or sometimes physical abuse of the husband because the woman suspected he was cheating on her financial troubles or in-laws issues.

We need to metaphorically speaking slap down any feminist who doesnt want to promote sikhism and doesnt want to promote equal treatment and only concentrate on just "womens rights". Men have rights too and they need to be respected more so because without men there would be no Sikhism. We forget that women psychosocially want a man to take the lead and be in charge and "be a man" they want their cake and eat it. They are emotionally unstable creatures not their fault its just how nature / God made them. So to give women extraordinary power and rights without correcting them where they go wrong and putting them in their place will eventually lead the community into oblivion. In this world Nature and Waheguru respects the strong you just have to observe how the world and nature how the strong survive and the weak get trampled on.

If Sikhs allow feminists to breed within the faith and constantly self hate ourselves instead of the aggressors who attack our people and we as a community are not strongly spiritually, physically, emotionally and intellectually, and fiercely proud to be Sikh then Sikhs will be in history books.

[MisterrSingh]

@coolwater - Going on from your post above, Sikh men have to set an example. We have to be whiter than white, no pun intended. Obviously don't run yourself ragged, but we must speak, behave, and interact with integrity, assurance, and wisdom in every walk of life. We can't dictate to others and throw our weight around if we ourselves are incapable of introspection and functioning on a level that portays the faith we follow in the best possible light. Unfortunately, and this is controversial, but our culture, and dare I say the way our religion has been interpreted and disseminated to the masses in this relatively modern age, shuns original thought and critical thinking. We are no better than sheep. And no man worth is salt should ever be a sheep. But anyway, hehe.

When white English and American men still in their youth (i.e. not old men, lol) begin to criticise and look down upon other males for frequenting nightclubs, casual fornication with many partners, the consumption of intoxicants, etc, then you know change is afoot. Then you look at our lot who are arguing the opposite, lmao! People are beginning to open their eyes; people who I assumed never would, and I tell you it's pretty sweet.

[Ranjeet01]

One example I find strange is female infanticide. Quite rightly it is being discussed as there are questions about the place of females in our families and societies and the so called claim that it is the patriarchy to blame.

I have never known of any Sikh fathers ( since they are patriarchs) that hate their daughters or place their daughters at the bottom of the pile. In fact Fathers tend to be harsher on their sons than daughters (where does the term daddy's little girl come from) and vica versa with mothers who tend to be softer with their sons (mummy's boy).

You see it the female infanticide issue come up in the news outlets all the time and they use this one birth statistic in Punjab in the ratio of male to female births and when they delve into the causes of the issue is patriarchy and the sexist attitudes of males in Punjab.

There is no further discussion on what the real causes are rather than a very simplified, black and white ,feminist misinterpretation.

There is no look into how the statistics were compiled, if there is an agenda, in what places these abortions are happening, who is pushing for these abortions in the families etc etc.

I have known of sex selected abortions in Punjab for over 20 years, the media is suddenly aware of it. My observations is that in a lot of cases, the family chooses abortion when they require a son and only after they have a few girls. My observation in Punjab is that it is quite common to see a family with 3/4 girls and 1 boy and as the only boy to carry on the family name, this "ladla" is pampered and spoilt.

If there is such a ratio imbalance, then why is there never a shortage of girls to marry of boys like in China. If this is a more recent phenomenon, how come it has not been noticed at school level, surely those all-girl convent schools would be complaining about the lack of school places being filled.

Let me know your thoughts.

[Not2Cool2Argue]

I have seen in many households the woman will instigate verbal or emotional abuse on males within her family which can lead to retaliatory verbal or physical abuse. Or sometimes physical abuse of the husband because the woman suspected he was cheating on her financial troubles or in-laws issues.

Men have rights too and they need to be respected more so because without men there would be no Sikhism. We forget that women psychosocially want a man to take the lead and be in charge and "be a man" they want their cake and eat it. They are emotionally unstable creatures not their fault its just how nature / God made them. So to give women extraordinary power and rights without correcting them where they go wrong and putting them in their place will eventually lead the community into oblivion. In this world Nature and Waheguru respects the strong you just have to observe how the world and nature how the strong survive and the weak get trampled on.

Sir, I must tell you that I find the above statements to be objectionable in your post.

Seriously though, I know ur a male one of those that think Sikhi is a religion of the machoist brave ones, when Guruji emphasized being humble giving up self etc.

I don't agree with Jakara either because they say yes to meat and they remind me of liberal hippies and up until your post I thought they overemphasized feminism. But now I see why, the Jakara ppl usually come from nonamritdhari families so are only culturally Sikh. So a lot of Punjabi parents must say the same BS u did: "women are emotionally unstable creatures" and "need to be put in their place" and "need a man" These are all Hindu mentality influenced sayings. Where women were considered lower in every way, not allowed to do anything and then say women arent good at it.But Guruji lifted us above that. Women are as capable as men in everything. Mai Bhago proved the physical aspect, Mata Gulab Kaur (the saint) the spiritual aspect.

Also many Punjabi women and children, in the west too, suffer abuse from drunken husbands. No instigation needed there.

Of course women shouldnt go clubbing its hazardous to health and morals. Just cuz men are idiots and allowed to be idiots, doesnt mean women should be idiots too.Of course women shouldnt give up cooking cuz men don't do it, its a valuable skillset that can open up jobs,allow them to take care of themselves,and do seva at Gurudwara. Also if the wife doesn't work, then of course she should be a housewife and be cleaning and taking care of kids. But if both spouses work, share the workload, wife isn't superhuman able to do both. This isn't feminism but common sense. Furthermore, "waheguru respects the strong" when waheguru is gareeb-nivaaj, annath ka naath, friend of the downtrodden.

"nature respects the strong" no nature rewards the most intelligent( humans) and also likes diversity. It is survival of the fittest not survival of the strongest.

[Not2Cool2Argue]

I have known of sex selected abortions in Punjab for over 20 years, the media is suddenly aware of it. My observations is that in a lot of cases, the family chooses abortion when they require a son and only after they have a few girls. My observation in Punjab is that it is quite common to see a family with 3/4 girls and 1 boy and as the only boy to carry on the family name, this "ladla" is pampered and spoilt.

Let me know your thoughts.

And the above isn't wrong: Aborting after 3/4 girls and then treating the son as ladla? Most people especially in cities only want two kids max, maybe three. So these ppl aren't gonna wait after 3/4 girls. Also the ladla son is gonna get into trouble probably drugs. And the reason they require a son to pass on jaidad n keep name going is patriarchy. The power, the land, the name goes to the man...patriarchy. Lots of women don't want to marry but have to cuz of patriarchy. So yes there is patriarchy in Punjab but not in Sikhi.

By the way, why can't the name be passed on to a daughter's son (dhota) cuz now we know child gets 50% of both sides DNA...

[Not2Cool2Argue]

Also China had a 1 child policy so it compounded the effect.we will see consequences, just not yet. And it seems kudrat is trying to keep balance by giving those who don't abort ( poor ppl , liberal ppl, n Amridhari ppl) more girls. Also the statistics are like 700: 900 females to males so not too big difference in Punjab yet but the gap will be increasing. Like Bhagwant Maan would say then saudhe(trade) will be done: we only giving you daughter if u give us one. Then ppl will gave a daughter to secure a future wife for their son.

[hsingh8963]

I dunno about the letter it seems to be pointing towards the Giani Thakur Singh Ji Thing...
“they [victims] are trying to make the community look bad” or “this is what all parchaaraks (preachers) face” are little more than excuses and attempts to cover up the crime."

Whatever the case it seems to be pointed towards the Sikh Community when it is a more of a indian/Punjabi problem.