Gay flag logo on sikhphilosophy website?

[Guest]

Just calm down people ! 

I think hating homosexuals is not a very "sikh" thing to do ! 

Did Bhai Kanhaiya ji's life taught us nothing ? He fed water to dying mughals. When singhs complained to Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj, Guru sahib instead of scolding Bhai Kanhaiya ji, offered him balm and said "apply this as well to mughals" . He didn't' meant it sarcastically ! 

Are gays more harmful to you than mughals are ?!! seriously ! please introspect their contribution . 

If you still see homosexuals as less deserving of freedom than heterosexuals , then my friend, its you who's in the loss 

BECAUSE you failed to see waheguru ji's jyot in everyone.

 

Honestly , you people whining about SPN think this forum is very inclusive ?

How often do you permanently ban people from this forum over minor differences of opinion ? I have been to SPN as well (apart from other sikh forums) , and SPN I must say is a very inclusive space, true to the ideals of Guru Nanak sahib's philosophy ! 

Kindly get out of your narrow , tribal mentality. This is the sort of mentality that will and has gotten kaum in problem ! 

 

(continued ... 

[Guest]

Lets stop acting as a caricature of some violent abrahamic religion ... We're not ! We don't believe SGGS was handed over to some prophet on mount sinai ! 

 

Abrahamic religions do have a severe beef with homosexuality ! Its because their religious scriptures (Torah, Bible, Quran ) specifically mention it ! Heck , they even have a prophet Lot who was sent specifically just to "warn" gays or else god would destroy sodom and gomorrah.. but apparently sex with underage minors and polygamy is ok ? (yes I am talking of you muhammad) 

But we're not an abrahamic religion , ok ?

Now you look at Dharmic religions (hinduism , sikhism , jainism, buddhism) , they don't mention homosexuality in their scriptures , atleast not in a negative or positive way. 

Where in SGGS homosexuality is either condoned or condemned ?

I am NOT saying you have to go and hug every gay lesbian transgender khusra out there ! but please stop having official opinions on things you know least about ! much less think of enforcing them by muscle power  ! Please educate yourself on the kind of struggles LGBT goes through ! 

Have a sympathetic lens if at all you going to have an opinion 

 

Now I shall attempt to explain the concerns of each commentator here so far  

 

(continued ...) 

 

 

[Guest]

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Seems like the extreme lunatic liberal left wing fringe has taken over some Sikh forums lately apart from this one.

Nope ! I have been to that site. And let me tell you there's amritdharis over there as well. Yes, its just very philosophical in nature , as the name suggests and this site seem more like orthodox , seeing the posts and nature of members ! there's nothing wrong in orthodoxy as long as it doesn't hurt others ! 

 

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Why the hell are they promoting a homosexuality  flag agenda on a supposed sikh religious website? What next a islamic shahada flag to combat Islamophobia? Madness

 

They aren't promoting a homosexual agenda ! They're supporting human rights of a helpless, downtrodden, persecuted minority which has been in same state for hundreds of years !

Like what kind of sick person would fight for oppressed and downtrodden , right ?  

Oh wait , wasn't our Khalsa panth created specifically for this ??

Heck , I know amritdhari homosexual sikhs ! they have just chosen a life of celibacy for guru ji's love . You would hate them ?

Maharaj said "Jaha taha tum dharam pasaaro, dusht dokhian pakad pachharo" (Wherever you spread righteousness, pick up the tyrants and destroy them)

Tyrant means anyone who doesn't want equality for all. Back in mughal days, hindus weren't allowed to wear kalgi, ride horses, keep a hawk  , or do aarti . Guru Gobind Singh ji challenged all of that and did everything of that ! 

I personally think there's nothing wrong with rainbow flag ! its beautiful. Apparently , god also has a gay agenda when there's a rainbow in sky after rain, huh ??

Seriously , kindly do read on LGBT life struggles before you comment ! Such empty ritualistic life without deeper understanding of sikh philosophy will never help you in your spiritual journey either .

 

[Guest]

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I can't understand why there's such a vast and open obsession in the West about something that is essentially personal business. What sane person defines their entire identity on what they do in bed with someone else? Why are politicians getting involved? Most importantly, how do people know whether someone is gay or not unless they're told, and therefore how does discrimination against gays occur unless they're walking around with their sexuality stamped on their forehead? There'll come a time when you'll ask someone's name and they'll reply with, "Never mind that, I'm GAYYY!" Lol, madness.

This is common arguments against support of gay rights  !

You seriously think heterosexuals (straight) people don't flaunt their heterosexuality in the open and shove it the nose of everyone else, including closeted gay people ? If you do think so , then you're wrong veer ji 

When you talk about your wife , your kids, or your (heterosexual) marriage, your engagement or anything of that kind that implies opposite-sex attraction or heterosexuality, You ARE FLAUNTING heterosexuality . Thats not a personal business then ! You're unknowingly and implicitly beating the drum "Hey , I am straight ! Hey , I am attracted to women" . 

Straight people do it all the time ! We just take our rights for granted. Its a nasha in itself 

I have personally seen the horrors of LGBT not being accepted. Gay men are called horrible names that cruelly cut at their hearts . They are made to feel less of a man and treated as such , apart from denying them a chance to live happy and fulfilled lives . Lesbians are raped by their own family to make them behave like a 'woman' . Transgenders are mentally tortured by society . 

 

This is the exact opposite of sikhi ! This is not sikhi man ! no its not. Ruining someone's live just because it doesn't fit your worldview , you got no right of that !

 

The day gay people are accorded equal rights in almost respect, and treated as such , without raising an eyebrow, gay prides parades will become redundant ! 

See how does it feel when a redneck calls you a "rag head" or "osama" and then proceeds to shoot you with his assault rifle. We feel betrayed, we feel under attack and then we see Sikhs forming PAC , sikhs doing parades (yes its happening in US) to educate people about sikhi.

Now imagine if an evangelical christian came up and said "Hey sikhs, need to calm the f**k down. You aren't oppressed. Just stop flaunting your faith (turban and panj kakkars) and you will be ok" 

HOW WOULD WE FEEL ? its the same LGBT feels when we tell them to stop flaunting 

 

In words of a gay sikh man I interviewed once :

"Going to a night club or marching in a parade would be last thing I would like to do ! I also don't want my sexuality to define me, but oppression forces us to strongly identify with our identities. I just want to enjoy the sweet cake of my life quietly in a corner without much noise. I want to enjoy that piece of cake (marriage to a man I love and inviting all family over it , having kids with him via surrogacy, raising the kids together, going on a date, going to movie with the person I love and hugging him public and holding hands like every straight couple does.

But I am denied all this ! And when I raise my voice, I am scolded and told to go and sit quietly in a corner ! "

 

Seriously , is this fair ?   . Imagine if your apnay kids turned out gay (BORN SO ACTUALLY), will we kick them out and deprive them happiest moments of life (marriage, love, ...) just because they want those happy moments with someone of the same gender ?

 

PS: I don't support the gays who march in underwear on top of trucks. I am talking of general gays here. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Koi said:

I wonder how many of these "liberal" people are actually amritdhari, nitnemi, proper Sikhs? I highly doubt that someone who is strong in their rehit and steadfast in their bhagti will succumb to or accept this utter trash! 

Actually , a person who's spiritually elevated will hug gays , but will hug drug abusers as well ! 

Because he has 'daya' in his heart. Remember 'daya' is foundation of 'dharam' . "Daul Dharam daya ka poot" - Jap ji sahib

Bhai Daya Singh was first , then came Bhai Dharam Singh. You don't see live examples, do you ?!!

Hate the sin , love the sinner ! Lust is wrong, but then so is heterosexual lust but then you guys wouldn't make so much fuss of heterosexual outside marriage . Why are heterosexual brothers so hypocrite and oppressing their homosexual brethren ? it baffles me ! 

[dallysingh101]

56 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I think hating homosexuals is not a very "sikh" thing to do ! 

I don't think most apnay 'hate' homosexuals. But all these new things that have come up in recent years. People fighting to have gay anand karaj and whatnot aren't part of our way of life. There is no precedent for these things in our history. What appears to be happening is western minded people are imposing their norms on Sikh society. 

[Ranjeet01]

Sikhs do not hate homosexuals.  We do not approve of their lifestyle.

There seems to be this attitude that because you do not approve it means that you hate.

 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't think most apnay 'hate' homosexuals. But all these new things that have come up in recent years. People fighting to have gay anand karaj and whatnot aren't part of our way of life. There is no precedent for these things in our history. What appears to be happening is western minded people are imposing their norms on Sikh society. 

Seriously , did you read only one line of my posts . I hope not. If you did, you missed out on some important things.

People often want to be "dharmi" (righteous/religious) . 

Guru Nanak said very clearly : "Dhaul Dharam Daya ka poot" . In olden days, indian hindus used to believe earth (human society) was supported by a grand bull they called "Dhawal" (or dhaul) . Guru Nanak clarifies this bull (dharma) is born from "daya" (compassion/ mercy). 

Then the miracle happened again when Sahib-e-kamaal Sarbans daani Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj asked for head on the eve of baisakhi . First to come was "Bhai Daya Ram", then "Bhai Dharam" , you think it was coincidence ? NOPES !

First Daya (compassion) has to come in your hearts, then Dharam(righteous / religious) living naturally follows ! and then "mohkam" (intellect), "himmat"(bravery) and then you become one with "sahib"(supreme lord).

Compassion : 

sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

 

DO YOU KNOW how gays in india and pretty much worldwide live ? they live their lives watching photo of white gay couples marrying in US and their small babies . Thats how they live ! 

They live by dreaming of that normal life because reality is very harsh for them ! The reality is they will probably never be able to get married to the one same-sex partner they love, they will never be able to enjoy "conjugal blliss", most of them shall never be accepted by their families for who they're , they can't be open about their relationship in front of the world (like how you are with your Kaur) . Then there are some who end up marrying women in family pressure , each night of their life is HELL on earth ! living double lives .. (btw, the "wives" are suffering as well , that woman who unknowingly married him , he could be anyone's sister , including yours ?!! 

And trust me this is just the tip of iceberg of all the miseries and problems created by neglect of homosexuals ! 

Imagine if you were forced to marry a  man and spend every remaining night of your life in bed with him ! Why should anyone be forced to live such a life just because it doesn't fit YOUR worldview ?!! Seriously who gave us right to do this ?

 

Akal Takht Jathedar back in 2000's had said to canadian sikh populace to oppose gay marriage when it was being debated I guess ! Seriously, this is the guy who sits on the same position as Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed !??

Homosexuals ARE, WERE, WILL BE ! we existed before all organized religions (which btw are only 5000 yrs ago !) , still exist amidst the madness of organized religions and shall continue to exist when organized religions become a thing of the past ! 

Trust me , I have never been to a gay pride parade, despite me living in a metro city of india where gay parades happen every year ! I am INVITED and insisted by close gay friends to come to gay support groups and meets. I still don't like to go , because I don't want to ! 

I want to sit in a corner, and live my life , and enjoy my life and not having to fight for it,  just like you "straight" people do . But I can't afford that , because my civil rights were not granted to me on a silver platter , unlike you heterosexuals ! 

And Sikh women are fighting for their rights as well btw. The right-wing maybe in trend right now, but I don't see gay rights going backwards.  

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I am against the kind of sluttty homos who go on top of buses in their underwear and display shamelessness ! They give all of us a bad name. But what about people like me who're gay by birth and can't become straight even if we wanted to ? We should have some option, no ? I don't understand why homosexuality comes as a surprise to so many people. 

Its not like something NEW ! its always existed but Guru Sahib never commented anything on it because lust (kaam) is lust regardless. 

If you're going to malign all gay community just because of sluttty gays and glitter , someone can malign all singhs just because a few idiots blew up Air India flight over atlantic ocean ! 

Sikhs in just 500 yrs of our history have faced so much of persecution . Being well versed in sikh history, I know , not a half century has passed in last 500 yrs when we were not oppressed in some way or other ! Same for gays , who were exterminated first by Church by burning on stakes, then by hitler in gas chambers and now ISIS is throwing them off buildings in Iraq. One oppressed community should be sympathetic to another Veer ! 

 

[Guest]

Most gays sikh don't care for same-sex Anand karaj and most are not rooting for it anyways ! We just want to live in peace openly with a fresh air of freedom. But I feel like some oppressed girl in a remote village in india in nineteenth century lol. Just accept the gay ones in your family  . And I am sure Guru would never judge. I know of every type of gay sikh (via social networking) . Amritdhari gay, Keshadhari guy who doesn't trim beard, Sardar gay but with trimmed beard, mona sikh gay , all sorts. We're everywhere and yet we're nowhere . What can we do, maybe by some past karam , we're born such that we only feel attracted to same gender and feel nothing for opposite gender.