Would A Transgender Amritdhari Sikh Be A Singh or Kaur?

[Mahakaal96 318]

45 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

In simple terms you're saying they became Mukht without physical presence of Satguru which in Gurbani as per my understanding is one and no other.

btw this requires a separate topic, it's not suitable with the heading

Nirgun parmeshvar has taken avtar as satguru in every yug.... our gurmantar reflects this according to Bhai gurdwara Ji 

Vaar 1 Pauri 49 Waheguru mantar

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of satigur Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

Line 4

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

Line 5 

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered

 

There are 6 different types of avtar of parmeshvar.... but not all are classed as satguru.... those that were are spoken about in above vaar by Bhai Gurdas Ji

Nirgun parmeshvar is ever present & all pervading.... those who do aradhna of nirgun parmeshvar thier need for a physical guru is almost non existent because they have passed that stage..... it is their guru who instructs them to do advait saroop bhagti.... and the beauty is that when they realise nirgun parmeshvar they realise that their guru was nirgun parmeshvar in sargun form all along.... the 5 types of mukhti determines to what extent the veil of separation is lifted 

[Akalifauj 900]

13 hours ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Vaar 1 Pauri 49 Waheguru mantar

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of satigur Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

Line 4

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

Line 5 

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

 

 

Shows how much you know....... let me guess..... Bhai Gurdas Ji was wrong?! 

Bachiittar natak is way too advanced for you to understand...

Bhai Gurdas ji is not wrong.  Your interpretation of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaar is wrong.  In the Taksal Sampooran Rehras Sahib, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says the following:

Chopei

Mai ‘N’ ganays(i) pritham manaaoo(n)| kisan bisan kabhoo(n) neh dhiaaoo(n)

I do not praise or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I let the thought of Vishnu or any incarnations of Vishnu (i.e. Krishna) enter my mind. (Meaning Guru Gobind Singh Ji never regarded Vishnu or any avatars as the supreme Lord; Akaal purakh, as he states next.)

Kaan sunay pahichaan ‘N’ thin so| liv laagee more pag in so

I know of their existence, but I do not ever worship them. May my prayers and thoughts always be in the immaculate, holy feet of the Lord (the one and only).

In the above Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji we can see how Guru Sahib is saying, he does not even have a thought (does not praise) of Vishnu and his incarnations enter his mind.  If Vishnu and Krishna were Satguru, then why doesn't Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji even think of them when praising Vaheguru?  Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says, I know of there existence but I do not worship them and I am attached to the Lord's feet.  Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji praises and thinks and worships the nine Gurus before him as we see in Bachittar Natak as stated in our Khalsa Panth daily ardas; from Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Teg Bahadur ji.

 

[Mahakaal96 318]

7 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Bhai Gurdas ji is not wrong.  Your interpretation of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaar is wrong.  In the Taksal Sampooran Rehras Sahib, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says the following:

Chopei

Mai ‘N’ ganays(i) pritham manaaoo(n)| kisan bisan kabhoo(n) neh dhiaaoo(n)

I do not praise or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I let the thought of Vishnu or any incarnations of Vishnu (i.e. Krishna) enter my mind. (Meaning Guru Gobind Singh Ji never regarded Vishnu or any avatars as the supreme Lord; Akaal purakh, as he states next.)

Kaan sunay pahichaan ‘N’ thin so| liv laagee more pag in so

I know of their existence, but I do not ever worship them. May my prayers and thoughts always be in the immaculate, holy feet of the Lord (the one and only).

In the above Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji we can see how Guru Sahib is saying, he does not even have a thought (does not praise) of Vishnu and his incarnations enter his mind.  If Vishnu and Krishna were Satguru, then why doesn't Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji even think of them when praising Vaheguru?  Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says, I know of there existence but I do not worship them and I am attached to the Lord's feet.  Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji praises and thinks and worships the nine Gurus before him as we see in Bachittar Natak as stated in our Khalsa Panth daily ardas; from Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Teg Bahadur ji.

 

The interpretation of Bhai gurdas vaar is not wrong.... your understanding of Dasam Bani is incomplete.

that ‘chopei’ is from krishna avtar Bani... hence why mahraj mentions Vishnu but also Krishna. 

To renounce or ignore something (ganesh, Vishnu etc) in light of praising something else (in this case mahakaal) that does not mean the original is to be totally neglected..... if that was the case the whole of chaubis avtar Bani would be a waste of time. It has to be read with a different mindset & then taken as part of a whole picture that Dasam Bani paints, don’t make judgments based on 1 pangti.... every Bani has an unthanika.... it’s important to learn these.

the reason Guru Gobind singh Ji does not even think about krishna & Vishnu despite them being satguru is simple.... they were satgurus of previous yugs.... mahraj is here as the messenger & guru in Kalyug... they will attach us to that which is the medicine in Kalyug... in this case Guru Nanak & vaheguru etc.

Would you go to a retired doctor who uses old methods & out of date medicines or would you go to a current active doctor who has the latest & most effective medicine available?  

You have to remember nearly all the population at that time would have been followers of krishna, Rama etc... so mahraj in poetic form through gurbani had to change that mindset so that they could get people on the right treatment plan in Kalyug.... this does not change the fact that in previous yugs avtars of Vishnu were the satgurus of those yugs.

[Akalifauj 900]

On 17/02/2018 at 6:42 AM, Mahakaal96 said:

The interpretation of Bhai gurdas vaar is not wrong.... your understanding of Dasam Bani is incomplete.

that ‘chopei’ is from krishna avtar Bani... hence why mahraj mentions Vishnu but also Krishna. 

To renounce or ignore something (ganesh, Vishnu etc) in light of praising something else (in this case mahakaal) that does not mean the original is to be totally neglected..... if that was the case the whole of chaubis avtar Bani would be a waste of time. It has to be read with a different mindset & then taken as part of a whole picture that Dasam Bani paints, don’t make judgments based on 1 pangti.... every Bani has an unthanika.... it’s important to learn these.

the reason Guru Gobind singh Ji does not even think about krishna & Vishnu despite them being satguru is simple.... they were satgurus of previous yugs.... mahraj is here as the messenger & guru in Kalyug... they will attach us to that which is the medicine in Kalyug... in this case Guru Nanak & vaheguru etc.

Would you go to a retired doctor who uses old methods & out of date medicines or would you go to a current active doctor who has the latest & most effective medicine available?  

You have to remember nearly all the population at that time would have been followers of krishna, Rama etc... so mahraj in poetic form through gurbani had to change that mindset so that they could get people on the right treatment plan in Kalyug.... this does not change the fact that in previous yugs avtars of Vishnu were the satgurus of those yugs.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't discriminate between satguru as their is only one same satguru for every yug.  He told us to praise, worship, meditate on the one and only satguru.  He wrote about the 24 incarnations of Vishnu and he corrected what happened actually to the 24 incarnations.  If Krishna and Vishnu were satguru, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would have said it in his writing about them.  Instead he wrote to say I don't praise them or think of them, I hold Mahakaal ( which translates into Vaheguru in this context as he is the destroyer of all) praise only in my mind.

[Mahakaal96 318]

On 20/02/2018 at 4:31 AM, Akalifauj said:

Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't discriminate between satguru as their is only one same satguru for every yug.  He told us to praise, worship, meditate on the one and only satguru.  He wrote about the 24 incarnations of Vishnu and he corrected what happened actually to the 24 incarnations.  If Krishna and Vishnu were satguru, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would have said it in his writing about them.  Instead he wrote to say I don't praise them or think of them, I hold Mahakaal ( which translates into Vaheguru in this context as he is the destroyer of all) praise only in my mind.

Ok.... please do kirpa on us all & give us the correct interpretation of Bhai gurdas Ji’s // below 

Vaar 1 Pauri 49 Waheguru mantar

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of satigur Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

Line 4

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

Line 5 

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered

 

 

Your level of understanding Dasam Bani is inadequate...... mahraj uses a literary approach known as ‘posht lushtika alankaar’..... it is obvious from what you have written that you are nowhere near the level required to understand Dasam Bani as a whole...

[N30S1NGH 3,155]

1. From Sargun Perspective- Primordial Satguru (Sat Chit- Eternal all pervading Awareness- Nanak- Pure Awareness/Vahiguru  in previous yugas-immanent its various attributes(out of infinite) into various kala avtars -highest being in previous yugas-Krishna and highest sargun avtar in kalyug- Sargun Satguru nanak. In the japji sahib teeka six types of avtars -ansa, aveshya, kala, nit, namit, poran avtar ram.-14 and 16  being krishan are mentioned along with sarab kala barpoor- satguru nanak being avtar of parbhram.

Gurbani talks about avtar of vahiguroo in each age to propagate and uphold dharma

Jab Jab Hoth Aristh Apara Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara. (Sri Dasam Granth)

Jug Jug Satgur Dhare Avtari (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

Sathajug Thai Maaniou Shhaliou Bal Baavan Bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

2. There are many examples in gurbani. 

ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥
चरन बधिक जन तेऊ मुकति भए ॥
Cẖaran baḏẖik jan ṯe▫ū mukaṯ bẖa▫e.
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਿਨ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੇ ॥੧॥
हउ बलि बलि जिन राम कहे ॥१॥
Ha▫o bal bal jin rām kahe. ||1||
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those who chant the Lord's Name. ||1||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
निराहारी निरवैरु समाइआ ॥
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
धारि खेलु चतुरभुजु कहाइआ ॥
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
सावल सुंदर रूप बणावहि बेणु सुनत सभ मोहैगा ॥९॥
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
बनमाला बिभूखन कमल नैन ॥

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
सुंदर कुंडल मुकट बैन ॥
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
संख चक्र गदा है धारी महा सारथी सतसंगा ॥१०॥

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

3. From Nirgun, non duality-advait perspective-  Off course previous avtars were rejected-called worms, were subjected to kaal because of five element transient nature, this has to be looked at from same point of view -a) rejection of sargun avtars as they are part of 5 elemental play- so one can transcendent in their spirituality-spiritual development from sargun into nirgun worship (personal to impersonal worship of god). 

 Sri Guru gobind singh ji himself also told his followers- 

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |
Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

This vaak of maharaj should be seen as scolding of our father, cannot be taken literally. However overall message behind this vaak of this maharaj should be taken seriously. What Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying- don't be attached to my transient (shud bhram sargun) saroop-personal god saroop subjected to 5 elemental play, don't confine me in transient shud sargun saroop. Realize- your and my real saroop which is Nirgun saroop via bhagti, shabad dhun, shabad gian- bhramgyan.

Sikhi upholds Absolute truth all the time but while upholding Absolute truth it also praises relative realities as well- for example- vahiguru ji avtar of narsingh we read every day in asa di vaaar- rehras sahib- Vahiguru saved bhagat parlhad ji in Narsingh form:

Har Jug Jug Bhagat Upaaiya, Paij Rakhda Aaaiya Ram Rajai
Harnakash Dusth Har Maaraya Parhlad Taariaya
Ahankarye Nindakha Pitta Daie, Namdev Mukh Laaiya
Jan Nanak Aisae Har Seevaaiya, Ant Leh chadaya ||

Gurmat is bhagti-relative-sargun / gyan-nirgun- absolute blended beautifully- somacha vaad (combined/blended)

One of vedic scholar also provides commentary and contextualization on rejection of avtars in sri dasam granth sahib:

Quote

Yes, it is from Dasam Patshah and its from the perspective of transcendence, from Awareness/consciousness/the Absolute, where all that is manifest belongs to prakrti. Krishna has a similar attitude to the Veda in the Bhagavad Gita. Don't treat paramarthic khandans as vyavaharic khandans. You may not be aware that you're doing this because these things may be new to you but we in the Sanatan world are familiar with such context- specific khandans. They're everywhere in 'Hindu' texts. The Guru is simply writing in this spirit. Even modern mystics like Nisargadatta Maharaj have said things like this. It's not such a 'new religion forming' big deal!

Attachment- Six types of avtar and Satguru nanak being highest of all-avtar of bhram.

 

[InderjitS 1,244]

Here is a post from 2008 with links from gurmatveechar (unfortunately none working) and a good response by Bijla Singh

 

 

[MrDoaba 930]

 

Ref: Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaaran Steek - Pandit Narain Singh

[MrDoaba 930]

 

Ref: Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaaran Steek - Pandit Hazaara Singh

[Kira 1,442]

7 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

1. From Sargun Perspective- Primordial Satguru (Sat Chit- Eternal all pervading Awareness- Nanak- Pure Awareness/Vahiguru  in previous yugas-immanent its various attributes(out of infinite) into various kala avtars -highest being in previous yugas-Krishna and highest sargun avtar in kalyug- Sargun Satguru nanak. In the japji sahib teeka six types of avtars -ansa, aveshya, kala, nit, namit, poran avtar ram.-14 and 16  being krishan are mentioned along with sarab kala barpoor- satguru nanak being avtar of parbhram.

Gurbani talks about avtar of vahiguroo in each age to propagate and uphold dharma

Jab Jab Hoth Aristh Apara Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara. (Sri Dasam Granth)

Jug Jug Satgur Dhare Avtari (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

Sathajug Thai Maaniou Shhaliou Bal Baavan Bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

2. There are many examples in gurbani. 

ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥
चरन बधिक जन तेऊ मुकति भए ॥
Cẖaran baḏẖik jan ṯe▫ū mukaṯ bẖa▫e.
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਿਨ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੇ ॥੧॥
हउ बलि बलि जिन राम कहे ॥१॥
Ha▫o bal bal jin rām kahe. ||1||
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those who chant the Lord's Name. ||1||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
निराहारी निरवैरु समाइआ ॥
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
धारि खेलु चतुरभुजु कहाइआ ॥
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
सावल सुंदर रूप बणावहि बेणु सुनत सभ मोहैगा ॥९॥
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
बनमाला बिभूखन कमल नैन ॥

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
सुंदर कुंडल मुकट बैन ॥
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
संख चक्र गदा है धारी महा सारथी सतसंगा ॥१०॥

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

3. From Nirgun, non duality-advait perspective-  Off course previous avtars were rejected-called worms, were subjected to kaal because of five element transient nature, this has to be looked at from same point of view -a) rejection of sargun avtars as they are part of 5 elemental play- so one can transcendent in their spirituality-spiritual development from sargun into nirgun worship (personal to impersonal worship of god). 

 Sri Guru gobind singh ji himself also told his followers- 

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |
Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

This vaak of maharaj should be seen as scolding of our father, cannot be taken literally. However overall message behind this vaak of this maharaj should be taken seriously. What Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying- don't be attached to my transient (shud bhram sargun) saroop-personal god saroop subjected to 5 elemental play, don't confine me in transient shud sargun saroop. Realize- your and my real saroop which is Nirgun saroop via bhagti, shabad dhun, shabad gian- bhramgyan.

Sikhi upholds Absolute truth all the time but while upholding Absolute truth it also praises relative realities as well- for example- vahiguru ji avtar of narsingh we read every day in asa di vaaar- rehras sahib- Vahiguru saved bhagat parlhad ji in Narsingh form:

Har Jug Jug Bhagat Upaaiya, Paij Rakhda Aaaiya Ram Rajai
Harnakash Dusth Har Maaraya Parhlad Taariaya
Ahankarye Nindakha Pitta Daie, Namdev Mukh Laaiya
Jan Nanak Aisae Har Seevaaiya, Ant Leh chadaya ||

Gurmat is bhagti-relative-sargun / gyan-nirgun- absolute blended beautifully- somacha vaad (combined/blended)

One of vedic scholar also provides commentary and contextualization on rejection of avtars in sri dasam granth sahib:

Attachment- Six types of avtar and Satguru nanak being highest of all-avtar of bhram.

 

is that from Japji Sahib Teeka by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji?

its always interesting viewing things from 2 perspectives. Lately I've tried doing that with Dasam Bani and its totally changed for me. 

[Not2Cool2Argue 663]

On 15/02/2018 at 6:50 PM, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Enough of this nonsense. If it don't fit it can't be true. If truth is akaal then The application of logic to discern truth is the only way to eliminate falsehoods, you don't seem to grasp the essence of bani if you don't understand that 

Yes Akaal is Sat. But Sat does not merely mean Truth. It mostly means Eternal. Everlasting. 

That is why when ppl die, hindus chant Ram Nam Sat Hai. That the name of God is Eternal. Meaning everything else is false and transitory. Including science, time, space, logic, existence. 

So we dont worship truth per say. We worship truth that is true forever. A truth can be transient. For example i i ask you the time, you say 3pm. A few hours later that will not be true. 

So in reality the only truth worshiping is Akaal. Because he will always be.  Science and logic and time breakdown in this world now. What to say of forever? Time is not constant as explained by theory of relativity. The laws of newton do not apply at a microscopic level. At a microscopic level, quantum mechanics apply which seem to have no logic. 

Im sure we will learn that space is also not consistent or constant  pretty soon.

Science is a great tool but limited. Do not discard the ancient traditions and rituals so readily. They knew meditation was important before it became hip. They knew that the mind can control diseases, today unexplained as the placebo effect, positivity psychology, and stress effects on the body. 

So Sat Sri Akal means God is Everlasting or the Timeless is Eternal. Not merely God is Truth. When all else fades away, God endures. Why worry about the false and temporary, when theres the eternity? Eternity is not a concept. Its reality. Its God. 

[N30S1NGH 3,155]

11 hours ago, Kira said:

is that from Japji Sahib Teeka by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji?

its always interesting viewing things from 2 perspectives. Lately I've tried doing that with Dasam Bani and its totally changed for me. 

Yes to be precise pdf page- 33

 

18 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Here is a post from 2008 with links from gurmatveechar (unfortunately none working) and a good response by Bijla Singh

Bijla Singh and Sant Hari Singh ji arths are spot on, ultimately we should be looking at antriv arths of gurbani as to how it relates to introvert nature of individual and helps seeker transcedent from sargun into nirgun* and bigger grand scheme of things (non duality- all pervasive ) but NOT at the expense of sacrificing sargun arths or rejecting them in paranoia  since sikhi is both sargun and nirgun combined and blended beautifully so one is in complete harmony-sargun is nirgun, nirgun is sargun - emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Often times, we see many sikhs falling on gyan-nirgun arths or sargun-spectrum-ignoring one or another. As per gurmat sidhant thats not the right approach. It needs to be looked at together from gurmat sidhant conceptual philosophy standpoint.

*Note i did by maharaj kirpa did similiar antriv arths of different gurbani pankiti:

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੂ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੇਵਕੀ ॥

Blessed, blessed are you, O mother Dayvakee;

ਜਿਹ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਵਲਾਪਤੀ ॥੨॥

into your home the Lord was born. ||2||

Blessed blessed mother devki (dwelling place -five elemental- body, mind)

in its home- surat ( consciousness/awareness) has awaken to itself, came to being. 

Uthanka arth is dedicated to krishan maharaj sargun saroop.

[Mahakaal96 318]

3 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

Yes to be precise pdf page- 33

 

Bijla Singh and Sant Hari Singh ji arths are spot on, ultimately we should be looking at antriv arths of gurbani as to how it relates to introvert nature of individual and helps seeker transcedent from sargun into nirgun* and bigger grand scheme of things (non duality- all pervasive ) but NOT at the expense of sacrificing sargun arths or rejecting them in paranoia  since sikhi is both sargun and nirgun combined and blended beautifully so one is in complete harmony-sargun is nirgun, nirgun is sargun - emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Often times, we see many sikhs falling on gyan-nirgun arths or sargun-spectrum-ignoring one or another. As per gurmat sidhant thats not the right approach. It needs to be looked at together from gurmat sidhant conceptual philosophy standpoint.

*Note i did by maharaj kirpa did similiar antriv arths of different gurbani pankiti:

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੂ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੇਵਕੀ ॥

Blessed, blessed are you, O mother Dayvakee;

ਜਿਹ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਵਲਾਪਤੀ ॥੨॥

into your home the Lord was born. ||2||

Blessed blessed mother devki (dwelling place -five elemental- body, mind)

in its home- surat ( consciousness/awareness) has awaken to itself, came to being. 

Uthanka arth is dedicated to krishan maharaj sargun saroop.

This is very well put.... hits the nail on the head.

There has to be genuine understanding & grounding in Sargun arths before advancement onto nirgun perspective.... the whole picture becomes even more beautiful when this happens. Unfortunately as you said, out of paranoia and lack of guidance by genuine vidvaans & sants most sikhs now jump straight on nirgun aspect & neglect the necessary ground work that comes from the sargun side. 

 

[Sukhvirk1976 290]

On 22/02/2018 at 3:41 AM, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Yes Akaal is Sat. But Sat does not merely mean Truth. It mostly means Eternal. Everlasting. 

That is why when ppl die, hindus chant Ram Nam Sat Hai. That the name of God is Eternal. Meaning everything else is false and transitory. Including science, time, space, logic, existence. 

So we dont worship truth per say. We worship truth that is true forever. A truth can be transient. For example i i ask you the time, you say 3pm. A few hours later that will not be true. 

So in reality the only truth worshiping is Akaal. Because he will always be.  Science and logic and time breakdown in this world now. What to say of forever? Time is not constant as explained by theory of relativity. The laws of newton do not apply at a microscopic level. At a microscopic level, quantum mechanics apply which seem to have no logic. 

Im sure we will learn that space is also not consistent or constant  pretty soon.

Science is a great tool but limited. Do not discard the ancient traditions and rituals so readily. They knew meditation was important before it became hip. They knew that the mind can control diseases, today unexplained as the placebo effect, positivity psychology, and stress effects on the body. 

So Sat Sri Akal means God is Everlasting or the Timeless is Eternal. Not merely God is Truth. When all else fades away, God endures. Why worry about the false and temporary, when theres the eternity? Eternity is not a concept. Its reality. Its God. 

Truth doesn't also mean eternal.. Truth is.. Unequivocally! 

[Not2Cool2Argue 663]

19 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Truth doesn't also mean eternal.. Truth is.. Unequivocally! 

I meant Sat means Eternal not Truth