Understanding the deeper meaning behind "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

[TheeTurbanator]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

Often times when I or many other Sikhs are debating people of other faiths, I allways hear some Sikhs bring up the line:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ - Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1350

Which is translated to mean: "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

Link to full shabad: https://www.searchgurbani.com/guru-granth-sahib/ang-by-ang

I have asked many people about the true meaning behind this tuk, and most people would agree that its correctly translated, however there are some who would disagree, and translate it in a way that is directly the opposite of what the English translation means. Let me give you an example:

 

Literal meaning breakdown

ਬੇਦ = Literally meaning "Ved" referring to the Vedas from Sanatana Dharma (often called "Hinduism") 

ਕਤੇਬ = Literally meaning "books", however in the context of Bhagat Kabeer it means the three major abrehamic books: bible, quran, torah. 

ਕਹਹੁ = Literally meaning "Say"

ਮਤ = Now this is the part that is often disputed. How one interprets this one word can change the entire shabads meaning, and even affect Sikhi as a whole. Often times people will say "mat" means "do not", however the same word is also used with different meanings. An example is the word "Gurmat", this word doesn't mean "Guru Dont". 

ਝੂਠੇ = Literally meaning "false" or "untrue" 

 

Differences in Opinion 

 

The AKJ founder Randhir Singh translated this tuk to mean that Bhagat Kabeer (who is technically not a Muslim but a Sikh as per Gurbani) is saying that this tuk is saying that the ved and abrehamic books are false, however most of the English translations that Sikhs read, seem to suggest the exact opposite.

I am personalty not AKJ or any other jatha, and I disagree with some stuff Bhai Randir Singh says, however on this specific issue, I  lean towards "ਮਤ" not meaning "do not" in this context. The reason for this is becuase if you take the entire shabad, as well as the life of Bhagat Kabeer, its obvious that hes criticizing Islamic practices, and fundamental ideas of the abrehamic regions, and the eastern dharmas under the blanket of Sanatana Dharma. 

People often bring up the counter argument that "all relgions/dharmas have some truth in them", and this is generally true, and varies on specific relgion or dharma, however in general, the reason Sikhi needed to be revitalized in the 4th age (Kal Yug "the dark age") was becuase all other religions and dharms had failed (as stated in Dasam Granth which is generally believed to be written by the Guru in his 10th temporal form). Bani also criticizes the vedas on other shabads, correct me if im wrong, but at one point it literally says that its make belief, so then why would the Guru contradict itself? 

 

Here is an example of a counterargument against the English translation of "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."
 

Link to counterargument: http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

My questions for Sikh who are educated in Gurbani: 

• What do you guys think of this?
• Do you think the English translation of Gurbani was deliberately changed to not offend others? 
• If so, what is the correct way to interpret this tuk? 

 

 

[Kira]

The translations most sikhs are on a whole completely misleading. They're far too Western-centric as a result core principles are totally lost within them.

[TheeTurbanator]

What do you think of the aforementioned tuk? Which translation is accurate? 

[13Mirch]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

The translations most sikhs are on a whole completely misleading. They're far too Western-centric as a result core principles are totally lost within them.

Yogi Harbhajan, in a bid to further his cult, had the self-proclaimed sophist Sant Singh translate Gurbani. Sant Singh, himself, admitted he was not up to the task but nonetheless continued under Yogi's guidance.

https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/10/29/a-matter-of-translation/

 

[TejS]

What I understood from this, and I ask for an apology in advance, is that don't just blatantly rule out something because of the status quo. Don't just be a mindless sheep that follows popular opinion, however formulate opinions on your own. If most Sikhs or people in general are saying the Koran is fake, the Vedas are fake because they are not texts from their religion, don't just accept that. Find out for yourself. Read, understand, contemplate on them, and then form a conclusive opinion on them. Because otherwise by calling these texts fake without having read them in the first place, makes you as fake as your accusation.  

[GurjantGnostic]

Vaheguru's creation is immeasurable. Do I think Sikhi is pure truth? Yes. But clearly it isn't the only path to sanyog. If you think it is, it's haumai sorry. 

I have no knowledge regarding this bani, but this comment is more directed at the Sikhi is the only way mentality, which anyone is free to believe but I'd caution one to consider the weight of this statement given the infinity of time, space, and place. 

I've turned to Sikhi, and thrown myself at the feet of the Guru for a reason. It is pure truth, but it's not the only expression of pure truth. 

Note, I'm not saying these other paths are pure truth, but they contain enough truth to forge saints and the naam is an open path to all, regardless of the naam they use, if one fully embraces Vaheguru as Sikhi teaches, sanyog is available. 

My gut says this bani is about respecting other faiths and respecting the truth they contain to whatever degree. I however am an illiterate child in regards to Gurbani. 

I'm sure I've offended some people, but it is what it is. 

I'd feel like I was letting you down by not saying this.  Beware the trap of trying to own Vaheguru and thinking you can describe and own the entirety of Divine, Immortal, Timeless, Selfcreating, Fearless, Hateless Truth and Love.  Japji Sahib speaks to this. 

Feel free to hate away, I've said this with love for you all, and the utmost respect for Sikhi as pure truth itself. 

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh 

[Kira]

Quote

The AKJ founder Randhir Singh translated this tuk to mean that Bhagat Kabeer (who is technically not a Muslim but a Sikh as per Gurbani) is saying that this tuk is saying that the ved and abrehamic books are false, however most of the English translations that Sikhs read, seem to suggest the exact opposite.

can you source this btw.

[TheeTurbanator]

17 minutes ago, Kira said:

can you source this btw.

Which part do you want me to source?

If your talking about Randhir Singhs translation, its already in the link I shared, if you havent read it, then here it is again:  http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

As for Bhagat Kebeer, its so obvious that he is a Sikh when you take his bani into account. Even if he and other Bhagats were around before Guru Nanak was physical born, they can still be Sikhs of the Guru, the ONE Guru (there is only one Guru as per Gurbani). 

 

[13Mirch]

14 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Which part do you want me to source?

If your talking about Randhir Singhs translation, its already in the link I shared, if you havent read it, then here it is again:  http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

As for Bhagat Kebeer, its so obvious that he is a Sikh when you take his bani into account. Even if he and other Bhagats were around before Guru Nanak was physical born, they can still be Sikhs of the Guru, the ONE Guru (there is only one Guru as per Gurbani). 

 

Shabad, shabad is the true Guru.

[Mahakaal96]

5 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

‘Veda Koran bible do not say they are false,  false are those who do not contemplate’

 

meaning, the Vedas, Koran & bible are not false because they contemplate parmeshvar, those who do not contemplate parmeshvar are false. 

Essentially it’s the contemplation of parmeshvar that is being exalted here above all else regardless of faith or religion etc