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What do you make of secret societies like freemasons? Can you be both sikh and freemason?

I have heard of many people being initiated and there are historical masonic lodges in Punjab running since East India Company times.

 

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no  from Gurbani side you cannot serve two masters and For us Waheguru ji is our all in all . Freemason are the antithesis of sikhi they want to control, cheat the populace deny the Creator , sikhi do

I'm not a freemason, but a close friend of mine is a past master of a lodge, they definitelty are involved in weird rituals. Not nefarious stuff but weird arti or whatever, not in sync with Gurbani. M

Would you also object to something like the Lions Club? Unlike the Freemasons, the Lions don't use strange symbolism, their origins are not lost to the mists of time (Lions was created in 1916 in Illi

5 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

no  from Gurbani side you cannot serve two masters and For us Waheguru ji is our all in all . Freemason are the antithesis of sikhi they want to control, cheat the populace deny the Creator , sikhi doesn't ... just because India has this plague doesn't mean we need to join them. 

since when has anything that east india company and angrez done been better for our people ? The first thing they did was burn our books, kill our elders and warriors , gave control of our gurdwarey over to anti-sikh mahants and rob our treasuries

Punjab has been doing international trade since ancient times even sycthians came to Punjab to buy our goldsmiths products ...we don't need them

I don't think that's what OP means. He means societies like the Nine Unknown Men. Sort of like Gupt secrets that only they would be privy to.

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Guest London jwaan
5 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

no  from Gurbani side you cannot serve two masters and For us Waheguru ji is our all in all . Freemason are the antithesis of sikhi they want to control, cheat the populace deny the Creator , sikhi doesn't ... just because India has this plague doesn't mean we need to join them. 

since when has anything that east india company and angrez done been better for our people ? The first thing they did was burn our books, kill our elders and warriors , gave control of our gurdwarey over to anti-sikh mahants and rob our treasuries

Punjab has been doing international trade since ancient times even sycthians came to Punjab to buy our goldsmiths products ...we don't need them

Hold on. Masons dont have a "master" Ie another god that is worshiped. What they have is a requirement that you must believe in a God ie not atheist. It's not Christian aligned . so how is this the antithesis of sikhi and conflicting with gurbani?

Where exactly are they cheating and controlling the populace? What the heck are you on about? (Again)

Masons have been around centuries before east India company even existed, so this is a ridiculous statement to infer that masons are a legacy of that.

Be factual jkv. I have said it once and im saying it again. Otherwise, with these exaggerations and hyperbole youre effectively just a female version of jagsaw the notorious......

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1 hour ago, Guest London jwaan said:

Hold on. Masons dont have a "master" Ie another god that is worshiped. What they have is a requirement that you must believe in a God ie not atheist. It's not Christian aligned . so how is this the antithesis of sikhi and conflicting with gurbani?

Where exactly are they cheating and controlling the populace? What the heck are you on about? (Again)

Masons have been around centuries before east India company even existed, so this is a ridiculous statement to infer that masons are a legacy of that.

Be factual jkv. I have said it once and im saying it again. Otherwise, with these exaggerations and hyperbole youre effectively just a female version of jagsaw the notorious......

Placing the group above any faith, race,societal rules or common human ethics  and staying true to the group is another master in abstract form.

Being members of a secret society and using it to get the law of the land changed  or the enforcers to ignore your crimes is an extreme form of cheating . two secret Lodges were revealed in the houses of Parliment recently...for what reason were they needed don't remember any charity work emanating from them ? the oft repeated stories of child abuse in higher echelons of society being ignored by police and justice system from the early seventies until now  are examples . Protection of the perps e.g. Leon Brittan

despite all the claims of brotherhood , charity etc Freemasonery is a closed shop with many rituals ... for sikhs we have our own idea of brotherhood which is universal , charity not as daan but as sharing , nishkam good deeds, no secrecy, lawful , respectful, no belief of ritualism or reliance on dramas  . What's the draw ,the benefit for a sikh to go to freemasonry  ?

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8 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

no  from Gurbani side you cannot serve two masters and For us Waheguru ji is our all in all . Freemason are the antithesis of sikhi they want to control, cheat the populace deny the Creator , sikhi doesn't ... just because India has this plague doesn't mean we need to join them. 

Would you also object to something like the Lions Club? Unlike the Freemasons, the Lions don't use strange symbolism, their origins are not lost to the mists of time (Lions was created in 1916 in Illinois), they don't have secret handshakes or rituals, and they are meant just to be a social service organization, not a kind of substitute religion.

To the OP, I would say, instead of asking why a Sikh should not join Freemasons, I would ask, what's the need to join it in the first place? Just do your social service as a part of your local Gurdwara, or maybe donate to societies (Khalsa Aid, Sevapanthies) that are doing good work. Or join a non-secret social service organization.

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6 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Would you also object to something like the Lions Club? Unlike the Freemasons, the Lions don't use strange symbolism, their origins are not lost to the mists of time (Lions was created in 1916 in Illinois), they don't have secret handshakes or rituals, and they are meant just to be a social service organization, not a kind of substitute religion.

To the OP, I would say, instead of asking why a Sikh should not join Freemasons, I would ask, what's the need to join it in the first place? Just do your social service as a part of your local Gurdwara, or maybe donate to societies (Khalsa Aid, Sevapanthies) that are doing good work. Or join a non-secret social service organization.

my only experience of lions club was it attracted the local racial bigots  , which in the east end  was all the skins wannabes...don't know if it has cleaned up ....plenty of community projects to start help out with already  without needing to pay dues

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2 hours ago, Guest London jwaan said:

Masons have been around centuries before east India company even existed, so this is a ridiculous statement to infer that masons are a legacy of that.

Yes, and that's plenty of time for weird stuff (philosophies/rituals/etc.) to accumulate. Why would a Sikh feel a need to be part of that?

When you say "be factual", it's a bit hard to be factual regarding a secret society. 

The Sikh panth is not a secret society because anybody can be present at any Gurdwara.

It is believed by many that Freemasons take a pledge to help their "brothers". This can have a debilitating impact on criminal and other investigations, and the process of lawmaking and governance. As regarding "facts", it's a fact that secret Freemason lodges were operating at Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/freemasons-masons

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/04/two-freemasons-lodges-operating-secretly-at-westminster

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5 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Yes, and that's plenty of time for weird stuff (philosophies/rituals/etc.) to accumulate. Why would a Sikh feel a need to be part of that?

When you say "be factual", it's a bit hard to be factual regarding a secret society. 

The Sikh panth is not a secret society because anybody can be present at any Gurdwara.

It is believed by many that Freemasons take a pledge to help their "brothers". This can have a debilitating impact on criminal and other investigations, and the process of lawmaking and governance. As regarding "facts", it's a fact that secret Freemason lodges were operating at Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/freemasons-masons

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/04/two-freemasons-lodges-operating-secretly-at-westminster

Well even if there is secrecy, "guessing" what goes on and presenting it as fact is a bit idiotic dont you think? I dont really know what goes on in the Brownies as its female only. Should I declare that they all meet up and torture male animals and eat raw fish heads and present it as fact?

No-one is denying that freemason lodges were operating in parliament. But is it a fact therefore that the majority of MPs were masons and therefore laws were set according to Masonic pledges with no regard for what is right for the country? or that because leon brittan was part of "higher society" that therefore he must have been a mason and thats why it was overlooked?

Unfortunately I think you too may be doing a few gusteean out of your jagsaw my friend....

 

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Would you also object to something like the Lions Club? Unlike the Freemasons, the Lions don't use strange symbolism, their origins are not lost to the mists of time (Lions was created in 1916 in Illinois), they don't have secret handshakes or rituals, and they are meant just to be a social service organization, not a kind of substitute religion.

To the OP, I would say, instead of asking why a Sikh should not join Freemasons, I would ask, what's the need to join it in the first place? Just do your social service as a part of your local Gurdwara, or maybe donate to societies (Khalsa Aid, Sevapanthies) that are doing good work. Or join a non-secret social service organization.

What about societies like the 9 unknown men (providing they exist and aren't just rumors) there's surely some things within the panth that were kept gupt by some organisation for reasons unknown to the general. I mean Loh Prakash Granth was buried for aeons by the Rishis on the orders of Guru Sahib.

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5 minutes ago, Kira said:

What about societies like the 9 unknown men (providing they exist and aren't just rumors) there's surely some things within the panth that were kept gupt by some organisation for reasons unknown to the general. I mean Loh Prakash Granth was buried for aeons by the Rishis on the orders of Guru Sahib.

buried ? held by the rishis to be given to Guru ji but once that was done , Guru ji entrusted gian to the khalsa and now the Khalsa have spread it further.

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46 minutes ago, Guest london jwaan said:

Well even if there is secrecy, "guessing" what goes on and presenting it as fact is a bit idiotic dont you think?

The point is if they aren't up to no good, what's the reason for the secrecy?

If they they are not fully transparent, why in the world would a Sikh feel the need to join them?

And finally, why would you feel the need to defend them?

If it is conceded that outsiders don't know the full machinations of the Freemasons, can we then agree that Sikhs should not join them?

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15 minutes ago, BhForce said:

The point is if they aren't up to no good, what's the reason for the secrecy?

If they they are not fully transparent, why in the world would a Sikh feel the need to join them?

And finally, why would you feel the need to defend them?

If it is conceded that outsiders don't know the full machinations of the Freemasons, can we then agree that Sikhs should not join them?

Just because something is secret that does not automatically mean someone is upto no good. That is an intellectually bankrupt conclusion. Your medical records are a secret between you and your doctor. Not even the police can access them without court permission. Because they are secret, does that automatically mean that youre a heroin addict?

Its not about why a sikh "feels the need". The point is, by joining them, a sikh is still a sikh. But saying that Im wasting my breath. JKV previously declared that maharajah ranjit singh was not a sikh and he wasnt even a mason, as far as we know"

Im not defending. Im challenging idiotic conclusions i.e. because they have their secrets, therefore they must be paedos for example.

And whether a sikh should join them or not, the lions club, rotary club or any other, provided they are not insulting sikhi, whats your problem with it? Being a sikh and a mason are mutually exclusive. One is not related to the other.

 

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

buried ? held by the rishis to be given to Guru ji but once that was done , Guru ji entrusted gian to the khalsa and now the Khalsa have spread it further.

The Knowledge was still kept Gupt for 3 yugs, it came out eventually but they were tasked with a secret that later came out on the order of the Guru. My point still stands, it was originally buried so no one knew it even existed.

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

The point is if they aren't up to no good, what's the reason for the secrecy?

If they they are not fully transparent, why in the world would a Sikh feel the need to join them?

OP is referring to Sikh organisations that might exist. For all we know Guru Ji did start a secret group with a select task, He's done it before in Satyug (again Im not saying I know what the Guru is thinking, no one can do that. Only he knows but im hypothesising), in many cases these organisations might actually do some pretty important things. imagine a secret organisation with original manuscripts, told to always remain underground to guard them (every single document written by Guru Ji and his sikhs) would be instrumental in keeping certain parts of our heritage around in some shape of form, look at the state of things now. Dasam Granth is constantly attacked, we have people here who constantly deny historical events written in our books and choose to believe the tales of some modern day sunday sikh.

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If it is conceded that outsiders don't know the full machinations of the Freemasons, can we then agree that Sikhs should not join them?

Dont get me wrong, im not saying Sikhs should join them. We definitely don't know enough about them but if a Sikh style organisation did emerge that was dedicated solely to issues relating to the Panth, it might actually be somewhat beneficial. Afterall there's alot of power in secrecy. 

 

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I'm not a freemason, but a close friend of mine is a past master of a lodge, they definitelty are involved in weird rituals. Not nefarious stuff but weird arti or whatever, not in sync with Gurbani. Mostly people join to enfranchise themselves and make business connections, like joining a fraternity. 

As far as secret Sikh societies I have no idea how you would find them or verify their secret info. 

I think other posters hit the mark by suggesting one join other humanitarian groups not steeped in mysticism. 

Gurbani is the best information out there.  

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