Tables and Chairs in the Gurdwara

[JagKaur]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Wahgeguru Ji Ki Fateh!

I have a question about having tables and chairs in the Gurdwara. I know lots of people are against it...yet lots of ppl are for it as well...I was having a discussion about it with someone, and I told them I dont agree with it, and explained my reasons. They put up a really good arguement...and well...I didnt really know how to defend myself...so...

Is it okay to have tables and chairs in the Gurdwara??...If not...why??!!!! :T:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh!!

[Sher Khalsa]

tables and chairs go against the concept of PANGAT... where we sit in a line as equals shoulder to shoulder no matter caste, status or anything... you cant have pangat with tables and chairs..

also sitting on the floor is a sign of humility, humiliy is somethign we must strive for in sikhi... like now do we think we're to good to sit on the floor?

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

Someone could only refute those points raised by the other person if you tell us of them.

[Guest JSS]

on another board someone said that pangat only means sitting in a line...it does NOT mean sitting on the GROUND in a line.....

just someting to think about.......if they have tables and chairs and everyone is still sitting at the same level in lines...then what is really wrong with it?

[JagKaur]

Well..this is what the person said to me....

Wahe Guru Ji ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh

Thank you for your opinion. But it is just that; an opinion. Unless you can point me to the sentence in our our great Guru Granth Sahib that the use of tables and chairs is totally forbidden in the langgar hall. Otherwise, it remains a cultural issue not to be confused with spirituality.

Granted that tables and chairs were not used in the old days. But does it make it wrong to have them now? There were a lot of things that were not done on the old days that we do now. For example, we have the Guru Granth Sahib on CD, we use gas to cook in the langgar, mechanical dough mixers etc. Should we go back to the old ways simply because someone thinks that this is somehow a disrespect towards the Gurus?

To me, our Gurus were very sensible and modern people. That's why we have a great and democratic religion that we can be proud of. I can imagine how irate it would have made people as opinioned as you to see the Gurus open the langgar to all castes and treat both genders equally and do all those things that were alien to the thinking of the times. To me, it is more disrespectful to our Gurus to be rigid in thought and follow the masses in mindless practices because that was exactly what they were against. And this is clearly spelled out in several places in our Guru Granth Sahib.

Still, in the spirit of openess, I have forwarded your message to the people in charge at the Gurdwara in Penang. Perhaps they have a different opinion from mine.

For your information, these table and chairs were introduced more than 50years ago. So, either we are far ahead of our

times or you are stuck in the middle ages. All the sangat sit on the same simple humble wooded benches. Even the permier of the state is sits on the same bench when he visits. Dirty beggars and vagabonds sit on the same benches in the same laggar hall. All are treated equaly. So, we are following the Guru's teachings of equality.

Furthermore, I have found that serving food to people sitted on the floor requires one to bend ones back dangerously low when carrying a heavy balti. Its a fact that these days people are not as fit as they used to be. Why do we want to subject our sevadars to the pain and hazards of bending low for long periods when the use of table and chairs can solve this problem. Our Gurus do not condon the practice of subjecting ourselves to pain as a means of achieving spirituality.

Whoever changed the rule on tables and chairs does not seem to respect the many issues involved in this case. It has also caused much enmity in our otherwise united community. In my opinion,he should be taken to task by the sangat for behaving like the arrogant mahants who were thrown out of the Gurdwaras years ago. Remember, there are no priests in our religion who can dictate to the sangat unlike in the Christian and Hindu religions. There are only sevadars and these people should not behave like priests and make laws that are clearly against a great number of our sangat. The "high priests" at the Akal Takht should not use the Rehat Maryada to display their "strength".

The question of serving meat in the langgar does not arise. Most people associate vegetarian food with simplicity and therefore spirituality. Even in these "modern" times this is common sense knowledge.

Once again, thank you for your opinion. Do not take any comments in this mail personally. Let's have a rational look at the issue and not get carried away by all the rituals and cultural rules. Let's get back to the basics of the Guru's teachings. Just as importantly, let

9;s not disunite our people with hyper opinioned thinking. ......

I still dont agree with him...but what do I say to that????

[V]

TEll him why u don't agree.

A thing that could be said is - can anything be better than what our Gurus started, if Guru Maharaj ji started on the floor, then are we smarter than him doign it on Chairs,

there ere 'chaunkia' and stuff back then as well, where they coudl sit, they could've sat on there as well - Maharaj ji chose the floor - may'be theres something special about it - the coldness, the hardness, the humility of siting low might be hurting someons ego :wub:

lol

sorry for making a useless post :wub:

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest rsingh]

i havent read all of ur post but, from my experience chairs go from langar hall to darbar sahib slowly, 1 then 2 before u know theres 5-8.

belive it or not radio 4 had discussion on chair in darbar and said we where wrong for bringing chairs in, they said this is the mastake christians had made.

to me hcairs and tables shud be left for disabled , but today its for the old commitie members, :wub: @

to me the idea defeats the purpose!

[Sher Khalsa]

If the person says the Guru's were modern.. etc...

well back than they had tables and chairs...

they could have used tables and chairs in langar back than, but they didnt...

[S1ngh]

One spend normal of an hour in langar hall in a month and still we complain of sitting on floor? If kings like "Akbar" can sit down, i don't see any reason why these modern sikhs can't sit on floor??

This is really a pathetic issue and in my thinking i know why this is a huge issue. Most of the western immigrants are from rural punjab Pinds and when they migrated it here it's a huge culture shock to them of having a complete new different lifestyle and thus they became "Confused westernized" ppls. Just simply say NO to table/chairs.. What's next a drive thru?? or maybe a gurdwara management will work out a deal with local KFC fast food hood to provide langar :wub: it's all rubbish.. Stick with a plain langar system.. Look at the langar hall of darbar sahib..

No-one needs to have a debate on this issue. There is no reason to have debate because our supreme authority already declared that having table and chair in gurdwara langar hall is against sikhi meryada. You can't discuss the case after its been decided by the judge. Akal takht is our Head and we have to obey it whether it makes sense or not. (Noting that akal takht will never make a decision that will go against sikhi teachings)

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

So basically, the e-mail states that this is all a step in "modernization".

"Granted that tables and chairs were not used in the old days. But does it make it wrong to have them now? There were a lot of things that were not done on the old days that we do now. For example, we have the Guru Granth Sahib on CD, we use gas to cook in the langgar, mechanical dough mixers etc. Should we go back to the old ways simply because someone thinks that this is somehow a disrespect towards the Gurus?"

Yes. The Panth has passed a Hukamnama stating that sitting on chairs and tables is not an acceptable practice. To this date, this Sikh LAW is in effect. You do not like it? Take it up the Akal Thakat and get it changed. Every government operates on set standards and procedures that are followed until changed. So far, the Sikhs have not launched worldwide protests against this Sikh Panth Hukamnama, showing that the vast majority of the Panth is in agreement that tables and chairs should not be acceptable. The Hukam of the Panth was strong that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had to follow it...who are these fringe modernists to deny the Panth's Hukam...are they greater than Guru Sahib?

"For your information, these table and chairs were introduced more than 50years ago. So, either we are far ahead of our times or you are stuck in the middle ages. All the sangat sit on the same simple humble wooded benches. Even the permier of the state is sits on the same bench when he visits. Dirty beggars and vagabonds sit on the same benches in the same laggar hall. All are treated equaly. So, we are following the Guru's teachings of equality."

I recall the story of one Sant (name escapes me) who went to Gurudwara. He found a low indentation in the Gurudwara floor and would sit in that...BELOW the level of the regular Sangat, because he had such high regard of Saadh Sangat. His humility was such. Meanwhile, we have these people who insist on sitting in chairs and tables to eat langar. Sangat Ji, this is not a movement in modernization...this is an exercise in shame! These people are ashamed that their ways are different from their neighbors. Is it not a wonder that such "revolutionary" thought of chairs and tables has not come from India? Know why? These people are afraid to look different from everyone else. To seem more "civilized", they install chairs and tables in Gurudwaras in the vain effort to seem more "integrated" into the surrounding society. Don't be fooled by these petty excuses and see the truth hidden under their ashamed eyes.

"Furthermore, I have found that serving food to people sitted on the floor requires one to bend ones back dangerously low when carrying a heavy balti. Its a fact that these days people are not as fit as they used to be. Why do we want to subject our sevadars to the pain and hazards of bending low for long periods when the use of table and chairs can solve this problem. Our Gurus do not condon the practice of subjecting ourselves to pain as a means of achieving spirituality. "

Guru Sahib also held Holla Mahalla, had Kushti (Wrestling) Akharas and various other events in the effort to keep Sikhs mentally and physically taut. Pity that obesity is being used as an excuse to not follow Gurmat. What next? Bowing down to Guru Sahib is too hard so we will just shoot Guru Sahib a salute from 20 yards away? The true Sikh sewadaar forgoes all pain and misery for the service to the Guru and the Saadh Sangat. Bhai Lehna Sahib used to fetch water for Guru Nanak Sahib in the freezing night everyday, sacrificing comfort and sleep to serve his Guru.

And if you want to get all medical, perhaps the author of this e-mail should look at what sitting on chairs can do to the back...it is a most unhealthy act. If these people are complaining about aches and pains with serving Daal, how are they to expect themselves to defend the Panth that they owe their allegiance to? Pyaro, if the Balti is too heavy, 5 minutes of wielding a Tegh (or any Shastar, modern or Puratan) will annihilate your back! Advice: Get some exercise and follow the Guru Panth's Hukam.

"Remember, there are no priests in our religion who can dictate to the sangat unlike in the Christian and Hindu religions. There are only sevadars and these people should not behave like priests and make laws that are clearly against a great number of our sangat. The "high priests" at the Akal Takht should not use the Rehat Maryada to display their "strength"."

Someone does not know what the Panj Pyare are...

To this day, all of these excuses have been pathetic and the real reason for the tables and chairs (shame of their own religion) has been ignored. Excuses are exchanged back and forth. God forbid these people get hold of the Panth...if they had their way, they would have recliner seating in Gurudwaras and I would have to climb a 10 foot ladder to Matha Tek at Guru Sahib's Manji, just so that Guru Sahib could have a higher throne then the Sangat.