Why aren't British Sikhs as active/engaged as their Canadian counterparts in politics?

[jkvlondon]

On 7/14/2018 at 10:19 PM, TejS said:

This is true. Also, I would advise the diaspora living in the UK to immigrate to Canada (better to have a stronghold in one area than be dispersed everywhere), although I know this is highly improbable but more Sikhs coming into Canada will only increase our political influence there.

we can see what is happening in Canada , sikh drug gangs , students fighting with other sikhs , truth is the Canada sikhs have enough on their plate trying to manage their image being spoiled by the druggie unpard attitudes of the Punjab influx. We may have to deal with musle but truth is Canada is not any less musle affected

[GareebSikh1699]

On 7/16/2018 at 11:28 AM, YOYO29 said:

hmm what kind of tendency do you see in Dalit or other low caste Sikhs in Punjab ? Do they take as much pride in Sikhi as Jutts ?

You are preaching a massive false equivalence Mr YoYo.

Pakistani Muslims have played zero part in creating Islam originally.

Since all Pakistani are descendants of Hindu's converted by sword.

On the other hand no wonder Dalits consider Sikhi as their beloved religion as:

One of the bravest Sikh shaheeds acknowledged in history was from an erstwhile Bhangi ("sweeper") and new (Bihari) Gurmukh background - Shaheed Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji.

 

80% of the Panj Piare (first baptised GurSikhs) were originally from oppressed Dalit backgrounds outside of Punjab.

 

Every Sikhs bows down to Bhagats whom Hindu's and Muslims consider as Dalits - Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Baba Kabir Ji Maharaj.

The Sikh Fauj was led by an erstwhile Dalit (new Khalsa) commander over 300 years ago in the leadership (bestowed by Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) upon Shaheed Bhai Sangat Singh.

Half of the Sikh misls which succeeded in freeing non-Muslims from terrorist Muslim rule in the 18th century were led by erstwhile Dalit background (new Khalsa) commanders.

In east Punjab, the Muslims always referred to Sikhs as a "chooreh-chamaarah di Qaum" as without that component of Sikhs strengthening Sikh numbers to parity with corresponding high caste Muslims in east Punjab (Brahmin Muslims, Khatri Muslims, Jat Muslims, Rajput Muslims, Syed Muslims, Mughal Muslims) then east Punjab would also have inevitably seen Sikhs ethnically cleansed from existence in 1947.

Given that Amritsar, Ludhiana and Jalandhar had Muslim majorities and it was the Muslim League who initiated attack upon the minority Sikhs in east Punjab (Majha, Doaba, Malwa) upon the expectation that the Sikhs would easily be driven out of those 3 districts as successfully as transpired in the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in West Punjab.

So as an atheist from Pakistan yourself (I am a big fan of Muhammad Syed the brilliant atheist Pakistani) I hope you can see that you inadvertently expressed a huge false equivalence in comparing Sikhs of poor backgrounds who are rightfully proud of Sikhi since their ancestors chose the faith - in contrast to Pakistani's of Hindu background whose ancestors were raped and forced into Islam.

Sikhi is the only religion in the World that says the poorer a human being is in societal terms the higher one is spiritual terms - as we see in the Bhai Lalo Ji sakhi contrasting a poor Sikh with a rich Muslim Jat.

 

[YOYO29]

17 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

You are preaching a massive false equivalence Mr YoYo.

 

I pointed out the hypocrisy of some members who love to discuss the discrimination happening in Muslim World but refuse to look back in their own backyard.I merely stated that pehle apni manji thallay daang phero.
Poor people whether sikh,hindu,muslim or christian tend to be very religious.There is no doubt about that. Islam, Sikhism ,Christianity all say that no body should be discriminated on the basis of caste (at least that is what i have heard) but people rarely follow this teaching and Before telling me how dalits are mistreated by Hindus and Muslims have a look at their miserable condition in Punjab.Have you given them equal respect that you are taunting Muslims and Hindus ? I watched a video a year ago where dalits were refused entry into a Gurudwara in Punjab.Take care of that first.
And yes Muhammad and few other Arabs created Islam and since then rest of arbas,turk,south asian, indonesian muslims are following it.Of course you can't expect every other ethnic group to play a role in the creation of Islam.And yes forced conversion did took place under some muslim kings.Auranzeb is the prominent name I can recall but you people just turn a blind eye to all those muslim babas whose tombs can be seen in almost every city/town in south asia.What do you think that people like Sheikh Rukn-ud-Din Abul Fateh of Multan and Ali Hajveri of lahore ,  Lal Shahbaz Qalandar of Sehwan,Sindh and Abullah Shah Ghazi of Karachi doing here ?? Selling popcorn ? .Whatever the case may be ,we are happy where we are .Get over it.

 

47 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

The Sikh Fauj was led by an erstwhile Dalit (new Khalsa) commander over 300 years ago in the leadership (bestowed by Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) upon Shaheed Bhai Sangat Singh.

Some slaves created big muslim empires in india and middle east i.e mamluks.But i would be fool to assume that every slave had the same opportunity or easy life.Perhaps if you dig deeper may be even Hindus can come up with some Dalit in history who achieved a greater social status.But that would be an exception. 

[YOYO29]

As far as riots of partition are concerned. You people were just looking for an excuse.Tara Singh stated in one of his interviews in 1967 that they (the sikhs) had taken the decision to wipe out Muslims from east Punjab so that Sikhs from West Punjab can be brought to settle in East Punjab.So Sikh leadership all along had made up their mind to massacre East Punjabi Muslims and drive them out.So you see your people are not an innocent party here.

[GareebSikh1699]

4 minutes ago, YOYO29 said:

I pointed out the hypocrisy of some members who love to discuss the discrimination happening in Muslim World but refuse to look back in their own backyard.

The difference YoYo Ji is that Muslim discrimination is backed up by the words written in the Quran (which supports slavery) and the actions of Prophet Muhammad in owning, selling and profiting from black slaves. So whilst individual Sikhs may fall short of what their scripture expects from them - those such as Islamic State and famous Muslim rulers like the Caliphs do exactly what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad proscribe. 

I merely stated that pehle apni manji thallay daang phero.

If one thinks like that then that means that we as Sikhs are abandoning the billion plus Muslims who are ordinary people like yourself and who (whether they realise it or not) are actually yearning as normal people (especially women) to be liberated from the falsehood and oppression of Islam.

 

I disagree with what you have said about Islam supposedly not advocating discrimination. The Quran and Bible both emphatically legitimise and condone human slavery. Slavery of another human being is even worse than Hindu oppression on the basis of caste!

and Before telling me how dalits are mistreated by Hindus and Muslims have a look at their miserable condition in Punjab.

Which Punjab are we talking about? The condition of dalits is vastly better in east Punjab than their counterparts in west Punjab i am sure you will agree! In east Punjab all Sikhs look upon the first Sikh in history (Bhai Mardana Ji) with utmost respect. In contrast in west Punjab, Bhai Mardana Ji is referred to by Pakistani Muslims as a kanjar simply for being from a humble background and an apostate from Islam to Sikhi.

Have you given them equal respect that you are taunting Muslims and Hindus?

Absolutely Sikhi does - respect for the oppressed is totally integral to everything Sikhi stands for. 100% of sincere Sikhs are indivisible by background. If stooges working for the RSS discriminate in order to besmirch Sikhi then we just have to double down on eradicating casteists from our ranks.

I watched a video a year ago where dalits were refused entry into a Gurudwara in Punjab.Take care of that first.

One crooked non-Gurdwara does not have any relevance to Sikhi. But I agree with you that such an event should mean that the custodians of that place should be beaten to a pulp.

And yes Muhammad and few other Arabs created Islam and since then rest of arbas,turk,south asian, indonesian muslims are following it.Of course you can't expect every other ethnic group to play a role in the creation of Islam.And yes forced conversion did took place under some muslim kings.Auranzeb is the prominent name I can recall but you people just turn a blind eye 

But as an Atheist why do you even care about Pakistan or Islam? Pakistan is a country built upon racism and hatred and likewise Islam is too. After all Pakistan is based upon the slavery, genocide and terrorism of Islam.

 

[GareebSikh1699]

19 minutes ago, YOYO29 said:

As far as riots of partition are concerned. You people were just looking for an excuse.Tara Singh stated in one of his interviews in 1967 that they (the sikhs) had taken the decision to wipe out Muslims from east Punjab so that Sikhs from West Punjab can be brought to settle in East Punjab.So Sikh leadership all along had made up their mind to massacre East Punjabi Muslims and drive them out.So you see your people are not an innocent party here.

The above is a totally false (Pakistani) narrative.

The false equivalence is that because Muslims ethnically cleansed out all Sikhs and Hindu's from Pakistan then it somehow implies that Sikhs must have done the same in response in east Punjab (which is plain wrong and provably so).

However, look at the facts YoYo Ji. Sikhs were a minority in present day east Punjab in 1947. Muslims were the majority in the three main cities of east Punjab (namely Amritsar, Ludhiana and Jalandhar) and the Muslim population generally matched that of the Sikhs in present day east Punjab districts.

Given the success of the Muslim League action in west Punjab where Sikhs were significantly outnumbered by Muslims and where 20% of the Sikhs were successfully killed off in the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs ... Jinnah and the Pakistani leadership thought that the Sikhs would be easy to ethnically cleanse from Majha, Malwa and Doaba as the Muslims has equal numbers to the Sikhs in these districts.

It is well documented in history that Muslims started attacks on Sikhs in east Punjab in 1947 starting from Amritsar (a Muslim majority city at the time - which currently has a Hindu majority like most cities in east Punjab).

What the Muslim League did not count is on is that Sikhs realised that if they lost to the Muslims in Majha, Doaba and Malwa in 1947 (as had occurred in west Punjab) then the Sikh Panth would face total extermination via Genocide at the hands of Muslims.

So whereas the Muslims fought in order to exterminate kaffirs and annex east Punjab into Pakistan, the Sikhs in responding to Muslim attacks in east Punjab were fighting for existential survival. Having said that, I totally wholeheartedly condemn the murder of any innocent (Muslim) non-combatants.

But let's not make the false equivalence (yet again) of making out that Sikhs were "as" guilty as the Muslims in 1947 given that the Sikh community suffered 20 times as many deaths as the Muslims did in per capita terms. That makes it crystal clear who community initiated attacks and which community suffered most in the consequent fallout.

[YOYO29]

6 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

The difference YoYo Ji is that Muslim discrimination is backed up by the words written in the Quran (which supports slavery) and the actions of Prophet Muhammad in owning, selling and profiting from black slaves. So whilst individual Sikhs may fall short of what their scripture expects from them - those such as Islamic State and famous Muslim rulers like the Caliphs do exactly what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad proscribe. 

Most Muslims don't read Quran with translation.So I doubt that their actions are directed by Quran.Most have no idea what is written in it.Quran is just kept some high shelve in most houses.Very few people read it with translation. Besides Quran also prohibits Muslims from consuming Alcohol and also frobids from doing other things but I see people don't care.Discrimination is discrimination whether it is backed by holy book or not.

 

11 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

Absolutely Sikhi does - respect for the oppressed is totally integral to everything Sikhi stands for. 

You can sugarcoat it all you want but it does not change the fact dalits are mistreated in your state.Some dalits

 

14 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

If one thinks like that then that means that we as Sikhs are abandoning the billion plus Muslims who are ordinary people like yourself and who (whether they realise it or not) are actually yearning as normal people (especially women) to be liberated from the falsehood and oppression of Islam.

When you can't give equality to you own mazhabi sikhs then all this talk about helping others seems hypocrisy.

 

18 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

In east Punjab all Sikhs look upon the first Sikh in history (Bhai Mardana Ji) with utmost respect. In contrast in west Punjab, Bhai Mardana Ji is referred to by Pakistani Muslims as a kanjar simply for being from a humble background and an apostate from Islam to Sikhi.

Nobody knows about him in Pakistan let alone calling him names.

 

20 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

But as an Atheist why do you even care about Pakistan or Islam? Pakistan is a country built upon racism and hatred and likewise Islam is too.

Well I may not believe in religious tenets of Islam but I do see myself as cultural Muslim.

 

21 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

After all Pakistan is based upon the slavery, genocide and terrorism of Islam.

nope it was created to escape the economic domination of hindus and Sikhs. Mullah were against the creation of Paskitan. These idiots thought that they could convert/take over all of Hindustan without realizing that if centuries of Muslim rule did not make it Muslim majority how will you do it in a democratic Hindustan where you will be junior partner in power. The man leading Muslim league wasn't a bit religious.

[YOYO29]

15 minutes ago, GareebSikh1699 said:

The above is a totally false (Pakistani) narrative.

 

Only if Paul A. Brass is Pakistani.here is an excerpt from his article
In February 1967, however, Master Tara Singh, whom I interviewed then and who was the
principal political leader of the Sikh community 20 years earlier, said to me in
words I have never forgotten: “We took the decision to turn the Muslims out.”
By this, he meant the decision to attack violently the Muslim population in East
Punjab to force them to migrate west so that the entire Sikh population in West
Punjab would be able to migrate east to replace them and take their lands and
property in exchange for what they would lose in the west.

 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/77f1/d2b9735df0283aa1f3af94eafa6ae701d7e4.pdf

1.  
2. The partition of India and
   retributive genocide in the Punjab,
   1946–47: means, methods, and
   purposes
    

 

[YOYO29]

This requires a detail discussion and I won't be able to do justice with this topic as I have to work on my presentation.I will get back to you tomorrow.

[GareebSikh1699]

YoYo Ji if one Sikh wrongly uses an unfortunate turn of phrase which inadvertently conflates the Sikh fightback in east Punjab (which was a struggle for existential survival) then that does not negate the reality of the fact I presented to you above.

The simple undeniable fact is Sikhs in east Punjab in 1947 had a two fold choice:

1. Either they could suffer ethnic cleansing in Majha, Doaba and Malwa and the same scale of Genocide as they faced in west Punjab (20% of Sikh population killed) via annexation of east Punjab into Pakistan.

2. Or they could fight for survival to avoid Genocidal extermination in 1947 given that in the three east Punjab districts of Majha, Doaba and Malwa the numbers of Sikhs broadly matched those of Muslims.

If having locally defeated Muslim aggressors in east Punjab some individuals took things too far (then that is a crime against humanity in the case of innocent non-combatants) then that is reprehensible. However, could you live in peace with the terrorist (majority) Muslims that brazenly attacked you first in order to exterminate the (minority) Sikh community from Punjab?

So if Muslim Pakistani's attacked all atheists like your good self or Mashal Khan would you just let all Atheists in Pakistan die without trying to at least fight off the aggressors?