Sikhi and Crime and Punishment

[Premi5]

I shared the above in another thread

Got me thinking

What is the Sikh approach to handling crime and punishment. Other than during war where killing opponents is fair game, what is considered right/acceptable in Sikhi towards other crimes?

Personally, I'm in favor of rehabilitation as far as possible, and a lot could be achieved with parchaar to correct people. But if that is not available, then many fail rehabilitation and continue to re-offend. 

Also, I think if keeping someone imprisoned, they should be treated humanely with basic but reasonable conditions. 

is hard labor a fair punishment ?

Is capital punishment acceptable in cases of murder or rape ? I think it might be, but there's a risk if they are actually innocent. 

What about middle eastern practices like 'flogging'?

What to do with less serious crimes, e.g. petty theft, low level fraud ?

What is the Sangat's thoughts?

[Premi5]

21 hours ago, Premi5 said:

I shared the above in another thread

Got me thinking

What is the Sikh approach to handling crime and punishment. Other than during war where killing opponents is fair game, what is considered right/acceptable in Sikhi towards other crimes?

Personally, I'm in favor of rehabilitation as far as possible, and a lot could be achieved with parchaar to correct people. But if that is not available, then many fail rehabilitation and continue to re-offend. 

Also, I think if keeping someone imprisoned, they should be treated humanely with basic but reasonable conditions. 

is hard labor a fair punishment ?

Is capital punishment acceptable in cases of murder or rape ? I think it might be, but there's a risk if they are actually innocent. 

What about middle eastern practices like 'flogging'?

What to do with less serious crimes, e.g. petty theft, low level fraud ?

What is the Sangat's thoughts?

no one ?

[Ranjeet01]

22 hours ago, Premi5 said:

I shared the above in another thread

Got me thinking

What is the Sikh approach to handling crime and punishment. Other than during war where killing opponents is fair game, what is considered right/acceptable in Sikhi towards other crimes?

Personally, I'm in favor of rehabilitation as far as possible, and a lot could be achieved with parchaar to correct people. But if that is not available, then many fail rehabilitation and continue to re-offend. 

Also, I think if keeping someone imprisoned, they should be treated humanely with basic but reasonable conditions. 

is hard labor a fair punishment ?

Is capital punishment acceptable in cases of murder or rape ? I think it might be, but there's a risk if they are actually innocent. 

What about middle eastern practices like 'flogging'?

What to do with less serious crimes, e.g. petty theft, low level fraud ?

What is the Sangat's thoughts?

This I have no idea.

Only way we could possible see how is during Puratan times or in the court of Maharaj Ranjit Singh

[Premi5]

Ok, so maybe I didn’t make it clear

but in light of the Lakhbir case in which Nihangs gave out their brand of justice - would it have been done the same in 10th Guru’s time ? I think, Yes

how would Puratan Sikhs dealt with grooming gangs ? I think they would have again executed them 

@dallysingh101- you have read all the historical accounts. Please can you provide examples from what you have read as to how crimes and misdemeanours were punished? 
 

 

[MisterrSingh]

Three strikes and you're out. By 'out' I mean execution. Once could happen to anyone. Twice happens when you might be trying to get back on your feet. The third time? You're taking the pi55. Get out!

I'd also do something pretty radical and shift the emphasis on criminality to focus on so-called "harmless" white-collar crimes that are deliberately designed to harm or destroy a society from within that employ supposedly imperceptible or silent means of attack.

So while the murderers, violent rapists, and drug lords who destroy lives in the single, double, or -- in the cases of drug kingpins -- triple digits will get their due, the kind of individuals that target thousands or millions of people over the course of decades and generations using less obvious tactics, would be made an example of. Of course, you'd have to ensure that any corrosive foreign socio-political ideologies aren't allowed to develop roots in your country, because like a virus it will spread. You definitely don't want those agents acquiring media or broadcast capabilities.

Most of you folks don't realise that in order to oversee the governance of a particular type of country (one that matters, not some irrelevance like Luxembourg or some island in the Indian ocean) you either rule it and micro manage it with an iron fist -- which will eventually lead to strife and regime change either from within or externally -- OR you put up a pretence of apparent democratic freedom where your enemy is allowed to exist and operate against you in your own backyard, but there's no will to do anything about it because to do so is being an "oppressor." Also, you can get away with certain things as a ruling force in a particular part of the world against a particular type of electorate that you simply couldn't do elsewhere.

[Premi5]

 

15 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

 

Most of you folks don't realise that in order to oversee the governance of a particular type of country (one that matters, not some irrelevance like Luxembourg or some island in the Indian ocean) you either rule it and micro manage it with an iron fist -- which will eventually lead to strife and regime change either from within or externally -- OR you put up a pretence of apparent democratic freedom where your enemy is allowed to exist and operate against you in your own backyard, but there's no will to do anything about it because to do so is being an "oppressor." Also, you can get away with certain things as a ruling force in a particular part of the world against a particular type of electorate that you simply couldn't do elsewhere.

I like your post, but "Most of you folks " ?!!! 

Would you like a strict Khalsa regime to rule Punjab ?

[MisterrSingh]

14 minutes ago, Premi5 said:

 

I like your post, but "Most of you folks " ?!!! 

Would you like a strict Khalsa regime to rule Punjab ?

Yes, but not in the way  the type of Singhs who'd inevitably be drawn to enforce the rules would want to rule. I'd try to create an environment that doesn't foster potential widespread issues for the nation as a whole, not running around after superficial nonsense, making life difficult for those who already are on the bottom rung of existence.

[Premi5]

6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Three strikes and you're out. By 'out' I mean execution. Once could happen to anyone. Twice happens when you might be trying to get back on your feet. The third time? You're taking the pi55. Get out!

I'd also do something pretty radical and shift the emphasis on criminality to focus on so-called "harmless" white-collar crimes that are deliberately designed to harm or destroy a society from within that employ supposedly imperceptible or silent means of attack.

So while the murderers, violent rapists, and drug lords who destroy lives in the single, double, or -- in the cases of drug kingpins -- triple digits will get their due, the kind of individuals that target thousands or millions of people over the course of decades and generations using less obvious tactics, would be made an example of. Of course, you'd have to ensure that any corrosive foreign socio-political ideologies aren't allowed to develop roots in your country, because like a virus it will spread. You definitely don't want those agents acquiring media or broadcast capabilities.

Most of you folks don't realise that in order to oversee the governance of a particular type of country (one that matters, not some irrelevance like Luxembourg or some island in the Indian ocean) you either rule it and micro manage it with an iron fist -- which will eventually lead to strife and regime change either from within or externally -- OR you put up a pretence of apparent democratic freedom where your enemy is allowed to exist and operate against you in your own backyard, but there's no will to do anything about it because to do so is being an "oppressor." Also, you can get away with certain things as a ruling force in a particular part of the world against a particular type of electorate that you simply couldn't do elsewhere.

"Three strikes and you're out. By 'out' I mean execution. Once could happen to anyone. Twice happens when you might be trying to get back on your feet. The third time? You're taking the pi55. Get out!"

- a bit harsh I think. For severe crimes or disrespect like that Lakhbir, I agree. But I think we should try to forgive and rehabilitate. Maybe encourage Gurmat vidia and strict discipline in prisons would work well to rehab many and put them on the right path. If you are executing, what methods would you use ? Guillotine ? Hanging ? Quartering ..?  Would you use torture at all ?

 

" I'd also do something pretty radical and shift the emphasis on criminality to focus on so-called "harmless" white-collar crimes that are deliberately designed to harm or destroy a society from within that employ supposedly imperceptible or silent means of attack."

- How would you punish these then - same way ? '3 strikes' ?  These people who probably are intelligent / cunning, could be utilised in some way to benefit society government/society, no ?
 

 

"Most of you folks don't realise that in order to oversee the governance of a particular type of country"

- Veer ji, what experience have you had of governance of a country ?! 

[MisterrSingh]

18 minutes ago, Premi5 said:

"Three strikes and you're out. By 'out' I mean execution. Once could happen to anyone. Twice happens when you might be trying to get back on your feet. The third time? You're taking the pi55. Get out!"

- a bit harsh I think. For severe crimes or disrespect like that Lakhbir, I agree. But I think we should try to forgive and rehabilitate. Maybe encourage Gurmat vidia and strict discipline in prisons would work well to rehab many and put them on the right path. If you are executing, what methods would you use ? Guillotine ? Hanging ? Quartering ..?  Would you use torture at all ?

Naive and soft. They'll laugh at you inwardly while they're taking Amrit to escape punishment.

Well done, you've created a criminal class that hides behind Guru Ji's saroop, and when it becomes common knowledge amongst that particular fraternity that rehabilitation involves undergoing a religious baptism, Sikh religious adherents will skew towards one overriding characteristic: criminality. Currently, it's a semi-serious joke that some of the worst people in Punjab hide their true nature and deeds behind the Sikh religious identity, but you seem determined to turn the joke into reality!

" I'd also do something pretty radical and shift the emphasis on criminality to focus on so-called "harmless" white-collar crimes that are deliberately designed to harm or destroy a society from within that employ supposedly imperceptible or silent means of attack."

- How would you punish these then - same way ? '3 strikes' ?  These people who probably are intelligent / cunning, could be utilised in some way to benefit society government/society, no ?

Are you trying to maintain law and order (by first establishing harsh precedents for anyone thinking they'll chance the consequences), or are you trying to gather a Sikh Suicide Squad? An assortment of Sikh miscreants hired to do the job nobody else will; don't worry, they aren't REALLY criminals. Beneath the bluster they're all hearts of gold(!) You been watching too many comic-book films, bro. Lord, you can't be this gullible.

"Most of you folks don't realise that in order to oversee the governance of a particular type of country"

- Veer ji, what experience have you had of governance of a country ?! 

What are you doing on this forum discussing the establishment of a potential Sikh nation and the possible forms of governance involved such a country? What experience have you got of establishing a country?

 

[Premi5]

3 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

 

@dallysingh101 @GurjantGnostic - what you think, what's your opinion on the OP and quote ?