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"Aso why do worshippers touch the stone stairs outside leading into SS gurdwara's?? Doesn't make sense but i guess the above applies in the same way."

Nope, its being humble as to touch the sangat's feet - To show that we are lower than the sangat."

If you really are humble get married to a lower caste or get married without even asking about caste. This is humble.

You just summed up a fake sikh trying to act out in front of others they are humble by doing this stupid act ''.LMAO. You might as wash your sins by going to the ganges as well...lol

Guru ravidass was no "ANY" mahapurash was he. He was accepted as an equal by the sikh faith.

If you add water to water it will be water. Add anything else it will become something else. Hence SGGS contributors are all Gurus.

Why are Guru ravidass holy scritptures in the SGGS if you people don't learn from them?? Are they just as fiction??

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definition of a sikh from sgpc.net

The Definition of Sikh :

Article I

Any human being who faithfully believes in

i. One Immortal Being,

ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,

iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,

iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

you tell me where it says thats satkaar jog bhagat ravidaas jee were GURU rolleyes.gif

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"Aso why do worshippers touch the stone stairs outside leading into SS gurdwara's?? Doesn't make sense but i guess the above applies in the same way."

Nope, its being humble as to touch the sangat's feet - To show that we are lower than the sangat."

If you really are humble get married to a lower caste or get married without even asking about caste. This is humble.

You just summed up a fake sikh trying to act out in front of others they are humble by doing this stupid act ''.LMAO. You might as wash your sins by going to the ganges as well...lol

Guru ravidass was no "ANY" mahapurash was he. He was accepted as an equal by the sikh faith.

If you add water to water it will be water. Add anything else it will become something else. Hence SGGS contributors are all Gurus.

Why are Guru ravidass holy scritptures in the SGGS if you people don't learn from them?? Are they just as fiction??

What this person is saying is typical propaganda from the Ravidassia community that everyone mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib is a Guru hence the reason why at the Guru Ravidass Bhawan on Union Row (off Soho Rd, Birmingham) has pictures of most of the bhagats in the Darbar Sahib with the labels of Guru Sheikh Farid, Guru Namdev etc.

Lets take a detailed look. Guru Nanak was the only person to have met with Waheguru when he went missing for three days. Guru Nanak was given the Gian by Waheguru to start the path of Sikhi. This therefore makes Guru Nanak, the first Guru. How can any of the Bhagats be Guru's I ask? The Bhagats were foundation layers of the Sikhi faith and THE FIRST GURU was Guru Nanak.

And I end by quoting Bhagat Ravidass from the Shabad 'Sachee Preet Hum, Tum Sion Jore':

Jahan Jahan Jahun, Tahan Teri Seva,

Bhagat Heth, Gaveh Ravidassa.

Here it is clear for all to see that Ravidass refers to himself as BHAGAT.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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No propaganda mate. These point raise some interesting thoughts. Guru or bhangat to me personally mean little. Its the contribution that counts. The truth is whatever is said defined in the SGGS is the last word. If there are 10 gurus and x bhagats so be it when you want a clear cut defintion of "Guru" in this context. However he is still a teacher and has made some very powerful statements that we can all learn from.

Is there an article I in the SGGS? If not it doesn't mean nothing, just man made.

"The Bhagats were foundation layers of the Sikhi faith and THE FIRST GURU was Guru Nanak"

Totally agree with this. But how many others do??

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Is there an article I in the SGGS? If not it doesn't mean nothing, just man made.
so according to you majority of rehat maryaada means nothing rolleyes.gif

all i was trying to say was that yes satkaar you bhagat ravidaas jee contributed to guru granth sahib. but we cannot single out his bani and make him guru. our guru is a COMPLIATION of bani's from all these great people. :lol:

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No propaganda mate. These point raise some interesting thoughts. Guru or bhangat to me personally mean little. Its the contribution that counts. The truth is whatever is said defined in the SGGS is the last word. If there are 10 gurus and x bhagats so be it when you want a clear cut defintion of "Guru" in this context. However he is still a teacher and has made some very powerful statements that we can all learn from.

Is there an article I in the SGGS? If not it doesn't mean nothing, just man made.

"The Bhagats were foundation layers of the Sikhi faith and THE FIRST GURU was Guru Nanak"

Totally agree with this. But how many others do??

This is typical Ravidassia mentality and before you try and heckle me for this, just thought I'd let you know that I am from the 'Chammar' community, but I am one who has woken from the falsehood stated by this community and have embraced Sikhi fully.

Bhagat Ravidass did make some powerful statements in his bani but so too did the other bhagats. Why then I ask you, is that none of these Bhagats have been elevated to 'Guru' status by their respective communities and only in Ravidassia gurudwara's will you find that they have (as I mentioned before about Union Row, Bham)?

Moving onto your final statement. You state that you agree with the bhagats being the foundation layers and that Guru Nanak was the first Guru and then you ask how many others do?

I'll answer that for you. The large majority of people on Sikh Sangat agree with this. A very large majority of Sikhs in general agree with this statement. The only exceptions are the Ravidassia community who are intent on keeping Bhagat Ravidass elevated to Guru Ravidass and changing elements of Sikhi to suit them and to continually say that they are something seperate when compared to Sikhi.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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When it comes to the ravidassia community, most people who run the gurdwara and people who go to them on a regular basis are not well educated. The management have big egos. Many educated ravidassias don't care about whats going on and if they do go pay their respects and go home.

So there is nothing typical about the mentality apart from it is low.

The truth about me is i have no strong views that ravidass should be called a bhagat or guru. Either makes no difference to me. But rumours that i did hear was that the Soho Road SSG wanted to name him Baba Ravidass.

The only reason why chamars call ravidass a guru is out of respect because without his persoal efforts to the chamar community they would have still to this day been under the rule of the brahmins. I don't know the full history but there seems to be some instinct telling us this. The man did more for chamars than any other guru. Please correct me if am wrong. I would be very happy if i was wrong on this point.

Guru Nanak fought for equality but my personal view is Guru Gobind Singh ji achieved more than Ravidass in the battle for equality.

So what are ravidassia's more into bhagat ravidass? Reason..

Ravidassia still have some personal touch with ravidass, simply because he was the same as them, a chamar. Thats the evil of life with everyone. Love people like you but not your neigbour..

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When it comes to the ravidassia community, most people who run the gurdwara and people who go to them on a regular basis are not well educated. The management have big egos. Many educated ravidassias don't care about whats going on and if they do go pay their respects and go home.

So there is nothing typical about the mentality apart from it is low.

The truth about me is i have no strong views that ravidass should be called a bhagat or guru. Either makes no difference to me. But rumours that i did hear was that the Soho Road SSG wanted to name him Baba Ravidass.

The only reason why chamars call ravidass a guru is out of respect because without his persoal efforts to the chamar community they would have still to this day been under the rule of the brahmins. I don't know the full history but there seems to be some instinct telling us this. The man did more for chamars than any other guru. Please correct me if am wrong. I would be very happy if i was wrong on this point.

Guru Nanak fought for equality but my personal view is Guru Gobind Singh ji achieved more than Ravidass in the battle for equality.

So what are ravidassia's more into bhagat ravidass? Reason..

Ravidassia still have some personal touch with ravidass, simply because he was the same as them, a chamar. Thats the evil of life with everyone. Love people like you but not your neigbour..

The only reason chamaar call Bhagat Ravidass, Guru Ravidass is because this gives them some claim to fame and also gives them some stupid ammunition to further segregate thmselves from Sikhi.

You say the chamaar community would still be under the rule of Brahmins today had it not been for Bhagat Ravidass's efforts. Bhagat Ravidass did fight extensively for the rights of chamaar and underwent punishment as a result of this but to say that chamaar would still be under the rule of brahmins (had it not been for Bhagat Ravidass) is a big insult (in my eyes) to Dasmesh Pita Guru Gobind Singh who blatantly disregarded class/caste and made everyone onto the same level when he created the Khalsa. So all downtrodden people would not have suffered any oppression had they joined the path of sikhi, therefore, your point has no basis. Thats the problem with Ravidassia. Neither do they fully flock into Sikhi nor do they fully flock over to Hinduism (which some Ravidassia believe that they are), they always have to remain stuck in the middle and some even stupidly say that they are half and half. Like I said before, the Ravidassia community needs to wake up and stop segregating themselves and before you say that corrupt SIkhs won't allow chamaars on an equal standing, I can say, hand on heart that I haven't experienced this and no chamaar I know can say that they have. If you do face opposition, then combat that stupidity with Gurbani. There are many quotes from Gurbani which would support this.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh,

Sangat Jeeo,

Bhagat Ravidaas Ji was a Mahapurkh of the highest spriritual character and who's thoughts/teachings were revolutionary in their time. His Bani has been recorded by Guru Arjun Dev Ji for time immemorial.

We do indeed bow to the living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and no other, and collectively bow to all it's light, including that of Bhagat Ji.

But it is important to always remember, Sikhs historically regard only Guru Nanak dev Ji and his 9 forms as Guru, and now only regards Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji Maharaj as Guru.

I see many people making brash statements on both sides, when there is no need. Before people can comment our holy Bhagats, they should learn about them, and learn why their bani has been included in Maharaj.

The Ravidaasiya movement was most likely created as a result of undercover castism practiced in Sikhi and Gurdwara from the times of SGPC's inception, whereby not long after Sardaar Jassa Singh Ramgharia's great grand son (who was Secretary of the reform movement) was handed the keys to Harmandhir Sahib, the caste poisoned minority started their discrimination in the selction of Board members etc, namely by Singh Sabha Gurdwarai...

The establishment of the Ramgharia and Ravidaasi Gurwara were primarily a result of this.

Both of these communities are not innocent either, as they now take pride in their caste and identity and place over emphasis on respected personalities from their historic backgrounds i.e. Sardaar Jassa Singh Ji and Bhagat Ravidaas Ji.

Remembering history of these great men is essential, but it should be done in a balanced fashion i.e. remembering all the other great Sikhs from numerous backgrounds also.

A Gurdwara should be solely a place of worship with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib taking the seat of honour, not anyone else, no matter how highly respected.

It is also culturally accepted to name Gurdwarai after historic events or people, so the names are not so offensive, but the culture within the Gurdwara must change. Sikh Rehat must come 1st and castism and pride in it, must be vanquished.

Bhagat Ravidaas Ji fought against caste, setting up a Gurdwara just for one caste is not what his life and teachings were about. His Bani is beautiful, powerful and awakening... this shabad in Raag Bilaaval should be read by all:

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ॥

bilaaval.

Bilaaval:

ਜਿਹ ਕੁਲ ਸਾਧੁ ਬੈਸਨੌ ਹੋਇ ॥

jih kul saaDh baisnou ho-ay.

That family, into which a holy person is born,

ਬਰਨ ਅਬਰਨ ਰੰਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਈਸੁਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਬਾਸੁ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

baran abran rank nahee eesur bimal baas jaanee-ai jag so-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.

whether of high or low social class, whether rich or poor, shall have its pure fragrance spread all over the world. ||1||Pause||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰੁ ਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤ੍ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥

barahman bais sood ar kha-ytaree dom chandaar malaychh man so-ay.

Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaishya, a Soodra, or a Kh'shaatriya; whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person,

ਹੋਇ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪੁ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕੁਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥

ho-ay puneet bhagvant bhajan tay aap taar taaray kul do-ay. ||1||

he becomes pure, by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself, and the families of both his parents. ||1||

ਧੰਨਿ ਸੁ ਗਾਉ ਧੰਨਿ ਸੋ ਠਾਉ ਧੰਨਿ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥

Dhan so gaa-o Dhan so thaa-o Dhan puneet kutamb sabh lo-ay.

Blessed is that village, and blessed is the place of his birth; blessed is his pure family, throughout all the worlds.

ਜਿਨਿ ਪੀਆ ਸਾਰ ਰਸੁ ਤਜੇ ਆਨ ਰਸ ਹੋਇ ਰਸ ਮਗਨ ਡਾਰੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਖੋਇ ॥੨॥

jin pee-aa saar ras tajay aan ras ho-ay ras magan daaray bikh kho-ay. ||2||

One who drinks in the sublime essence abandons other tastes; intoxicated with this divine essence, he discards sin and corruption. ||2||

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸੂਰ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਭਗਤ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

pandit soor chhatarpat raajaa bhagat baraabar a-or na ko-ay.

Among the religious scholars, warriors and kings, there is no other equal to the Lord's devotee.

ਜੈਸੇ ਪੁਰੈਨ ਪਾਤ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਸਮੀਪ ਭਨਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜਨਮੇ ਜਗਿ ਓਇ ॥੩॥੨॥

jaisay purain paat rahai jal sameep bhan ravidaas janmay jag o-ay. ||3||2||

As the leaves of the water lily float free in the water, says Ravi Daas, so is their life in the world. ||3||2||

In this chardi kalaa inducing shabad in Raag Asa, Bhagat Ji clearly states that spriritual wisdom is attained from the true Guru, which for us is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj (note how teh 5th Master has given Bhagat Ji utmost respect with the title Sri:

ਆਸਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ

aasaa banee saree ravidaas jee-o kee

Aasaa, The Word Of The Reverend Ravi Daas Jee:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਮੀਨ ਭ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਪਤੰਗ ਕੁੰਚਰ ਏਕ ਦੋਖ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥

marig meen bharing patang kunchar ayk dokh binaas.

The deer, the fish, the bumble bee, the moth and the elephant are destroyed, each for a single defect.

ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਅਸਾਧ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੇਤਕ ਆਸ ॥੧॥

panch dokh asaaDh jaa meh taa kee kaytak aas. ||1||

So the one who is filled with the five incurable vices - what hope is there for him? ||1||

ਮਾਧੋ ਅਬਿਦਿਆ ਹਿਤ ਕੀਨ ॥

maaDho abidi-aa hit keen.

O Lord, he is in love with ignorance.

ਬਿਬੇਕ ਦੀਪ ਮਲੀਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

bibayk deep maleen. ||1|| rahaa-o.

His lamp of clear wisdom has grown dim. ||1||Pause||

ਤ੍ਰਿਗਦ ਜੋਨਿ ਅਚੇਤ ਸੰਭਵ ਪੁੰਨ ਪਾਪ ਅਸੋਚ ॥

tarigad jon achayt sambhav punn paap asoch.

The creeping creatures live thoughtless lives, and cannot discriminate between good and evil.

ਮਾਨੁਖਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਦੁਲਭ ਤਿਹੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪੋਚ ॥੨॥

maanukhaa avtaar dulabh tihee sangat poch. ||2||

It is so difficult to obtain this human incarnation, and yet, they keep company with the low. ||2||

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਜਹਾ ਜਹਾ ਲਗੁ ਕਰਮ ਕੇ ਬਸਿ ਜਾਇ ॥

jee-a jant jahaa jahaa lag karam kay bas jaa-ay.

Wherever the beings and creatures are, they are born according to the karma of their past actions.

ਕਾਲ ਫਾਸ ਅਬਧ ਲਾਗੇ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਉਪਾਇ ॥੩॥

kaal faas abaDh laagay kachh na chalai upaa-ay. ||3||

The noose of death is unforgiving, and it shall catch them; it cannot be warded off. ||3||

ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਦਾਸ ਉਦਾਸ ਤਜੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਤਪਨ ਤਪੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ॥

ravidaas daas udaas taj bharam tapan tap gur gi-aan.

O servant Ravi Daas, dispel your sorrow and doubt, and know that Guru-given spiritual wisdom is the penance of penances.

ਭਗਤ ਜਨ ਭੈ ਹਰਨ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਕਰਹੁ ਨਿਦਾਨ ॥੪॥੧॥

bhagat jan bhai haran parmaanand karahu nidaan. ||4||1||

O Lord, Destroyer of the fears of Your humble devotees, make me supremely blissful in the end. ||4||1||

I am overwhelmed by teh original posters coments on how some Ravidaas followers are coming back to Sikhi, we should encourage this, through education and understanding rather than through over zealous uneducated fanatical banting... it would be great to hold a kirtan/simran programme at some of the Ravidaas Gurdwarai, and eventually an Amrit Sanchaar, nothing could be more wonderful, than seperated members of the panth coming back to the Khalsa fold, they should take maan in the Khalsa, as their ancestors did much to sustain it, namely in teh armies of Banda Singh Bahadur, which some independent sources say were primarily made of the down trodden castes, these people gave astounding shaheediyan, which were witnssed and recorded by many historians during the executions of Banda Singh forge in Delhi...

It is not enough to take maan in your history however, that history is only yours if you live up to it, i.e. become Khalsa, and we all rid ourselves of anti-gurmat practice and castism.

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh.

Harcharan Singh

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It was told by guru gobind singh ji and guru nanak dev ji that there were to be 10 gurus in the flesh and 1 which is our present guru granth sahib and that there will be no other, no matter how many genuine holy men there may be. every sikh knows this and should accept it wholeheartedly. who is anyone to question the words of the true gurus which were relayed to them directly by the one almighty? not sikh thats for sure........

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If you really are humble get married to a lower caste or get married without even asking about caste. This is humble.

You just summed up a fake sikh trying to act out in front of others they are humble by doing this stupid act ''.LMAO. You might as wash your sins by going to the ganges as well...lol

(i'm glad your finding this funy)

...right so does doing seva mean "acting" to u too? Ganges? Huh?Wah u on abt?!

:lol: You talk about dividing into caste system, you lot are the ones who say that Bhagat Ravidaas is the "Guru of Chamaars".. wats going on there?

Guru ravidass was no "ANY" mahapurash was he. He was accepted as an equal by the sikh faith.

So doesnt that exactly make him into "any" mahapurash becuase he is equal? lol

If you add water to water it will be water. Add anything else it will become something else. Hence SGGS contributors are all Gurus.

Why are Guru ravidass holy scritptures in the SGGS if you people don't learn from them?? Are they just as fiction??

..ok so you dont accept what Guru Gobind Singh ji said about there only being 10 Guru Sahibaans?

As said before, only a limited amount of his scriptures are within Gurbani because they go along with Gurmat! Simple. If he was a Guru, surely ALL of his banis should've been included no?

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status of guru was bestowed upon through the JOT. all guru's had same JOT different vessel.

EVERYONE else who's writings are in Dhan Guru Granth Sahib were bhagats, devotees of waheguru NOT guru's themselves because they didnt have the JOT in them. i can't put it in any simpler words than that.

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status of guru was bestowed upon through the JOT. all guru's had same JOT different vessel.

EVERYONE else who's writings are in Dhan Guru Granth Sahib were bhagats, devotees of waheguru NOT guru's themselves because they didnt have the JOT in them. i can't put it in any simpler words than that.

Do you differentiate when u read bani of a bhagat or a Guru?

Every bani in SGGS ji has the status of GURU bestowed by God Himself.

Gurus and Bhagats (as we say) were at such a level which nobody can EVEN comprehend....so its better to not to comment.

Anybody who reach there do not see any differences. Its us humans who create these differences.

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