Pictures of the Guru? Manmat or Gurmat?

[Jaspaul Singh]

People will often use imagery to help focus their minds, some people use an image initially of whatthey percieve to be guru jis face, other people imagine their focus on their feet, or on image of guru granth sahib ji, others on the script vaheguru o of gurbani , etc etc etc

Eventually we dnt need these images but if people use them to get that foothold into sikhi and bhagti then it aint the end of the world.

I think very few people look at guru ji's picture as guru ji himself, i.e. they know that it is only a pic and that actual guru ji is guru granth sahib ji, i know people do silly things wiv these pics whih should of course be discouraged, but dnt rip them all apart by calling them idol worshippers. if lookin at a pic can reignite that pyar for maharajh in their hearts every time they walk past then for them thats a good thing.

Thank you veerji for making this point.

LIke i was saying before, it all depends on the individual and NOT ALL so idol worship and like veerji said it sometimes give them that lift to do more bhakti.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"sant ji said, 'these pictures are like the walking stick for those who cannot walk, with the stick people find it easier to walk and eventually when their legs get stronger, when they learn how to walk then they no longer need the stick. In the same way for some people these pictures will help guide them into sikhi, they might provide reminders or inspiration, eventually a gursikh will feel no need for them and like the discarded walking stick he can walk the gursikh path without the need to look at pictures,"

funny how the "walking stick" became common after Sobha singh

also Hindus say the same thing about moortiah, they say idols help them concentrate until they get to the point of worshipping the one FOrmless God.

Also it is amazing to see the Billion Muslims or so that need no pictures to concentrate on Islam.

I agree with the historical pics but pictures of Gurus are so anti-Sikhi it is pathetic. reminds me of Christianity and all the paintings of Christ and so forth which eventually led to marble statues of Christ in Italy and stuff. You can see this in India already, with statues of Gurus...they must also fall under the same argument then..

and by the way, no disrespect to Sant Ji. Musch respect to Sant Kartar Singh ji...

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

we should have shabads from SGGS on our walls, that will inspire you, help you focus...Bani is our "walking stick"

[AK-47]

Who is to say that one billion muslims concentrate at all? Who is to say that they nammaz isnt a form of ritualism? equally who is to say that it is. im not to up to scratch with islamic bhagti, does it even exist? what do they think or do whilst they 'pray' do simran or whatever it is?

SOME hindu's believe in one formless god not all of them.

Do you not see the difference between looking at a picture and doing pooja to it? to the extent that you are sacrificing animals and foodstuffs to it, washing it with milk etc etc, does that really compare with something sticking a painting in their homes?

you seem to be getting the line between looking at a picture and worshipping a picture very blurred.

as for writing gurbani all over your walls, i have commented on another thread that personally i think that doing that would lead to less satkar for gurbani. on one hand people say we shouldnt have pics of guru ji hanging with metal nails on our walls, but then on the other hand its ok to take guru ji (gurbani) and put a pin through them and hang them off the wall?

I agree that pics should not be encouraged and where possible as little use as possible should be made, HOWEVER i disagree with people just calling them useless, as one gurmukh has already said, these pics helped her, does she bow down and do dandohth to the pcitures now? nope, well i hope not, she used them and now she moved on. simple.

my mum would do that toof thing years ago, because she believed it was respectful, i would argue the same as you, saying we should get rid of them etc etc, it hurt her real bad, cus for her part of her pyaar was in these pics. but we discussed it, and n

ow she dont do that anymore to the pics and she understands why she shouldnt do it, and she tries to bring as little pics into the house as possible. do u think the same would have happened if id carried on going physco at her? nope she would have just hated me and maybe i would even have pushed her away from sikhi. at present she one of the 'morning 3 o'clock at the gurdwara' bibian so waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than me!

a few pics dont bother me much, again diff from statues etc which is taking it to the next level. Ps if we drawing comparisons wats the difference between a pic of guru ji eating parshadeh and guru ji sitting in smadhi? did guru ji eat.. yes! did guru ji sit in smadhi... yes! both historically correct!

be careful not to go super hardcore on these issues, they are small compared to the larger problems we have!

[novtejsinghkhalsa]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

My AK-47 has some valid points about distinguishing between worshipping and just using pictures as a medium to educate sikh history. However, one must understand that it can also be very misleading. Our Gurus have thought us not to go after body and Guru Gobind Singh Jee made this work by claiming the Guru Granth Sahib Jee as the eternal Guru.

Here are a few quotes from the Guru...

gur mUrq gur Sbd sux swD sMgq Awsn inrMkwrI]

gur mooruth gur shubudh sun saadh sunguth aasun nirunkaaree

The word of the Guru is their idol and the holy congregation is the seat of the formless Lord.

bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]

baanee guroo guroo hai baanee vich ba

anee anmrith saarae

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

Also I have looked closely at some of the paintings of "Gurus" and there are some items/features suggesting some resemblance to hinduism - RSS <_<

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"you seem to be getting the line between looking at a picture and worshipping a picture very blurred. "

yeah that's what my argument is...that people blur looking and worshipping. 9 out of 10 times you will see a sikh with folded hands in front of a picture.

you say statues are a whole other level, i think we already passed one level, pictures.

As for Gurbani, well there is a shabad on a wall in our Gurdwara,

"Tooh Mera Rakha Sabhni Thayee" Says more than any pic

[Yasmin]

Who is to say that one billion muslims concentrate at all? Who is to say that they nammaz isnt a form of ritualism? equally who is to say that it is. im not to up to scratch with islamic bhagti, does it even exist? what do they think or do whilst they 'pray' do simran or whatever it is?

Peace

'Namaaz' isn't ritualism it is praying to God. We all pray to God in a different way and the Islamic way of praying is how you see it and the things we say while we're praying are praises to God and at the end we say our own personal prayer. Of course some muslims probably recite the prayer without even thinking about God but that is soemthing we all have to work on.

I wanted to ask a question and I hope it is not offense or anything if it is then apologies in advance. I looked at the pictures posted above and noticed that there is a circle of 'light' around the Guru's heads. This looks very similar to the kind of thing used in Christian art - the 'halo' idea, is it the same sort of thing?

[Khalsa Fauji]

Gurfateh!!

Yasmin Ji, i think the idea is similar to Christian art, it shows whom the religious painting is about.

Also alot of religious people seem to be infamous with a certain aurora around them or a glow on their face, a light from God, i think this is symbolised, with the halo.

If anyone knows any other reasons, or if im mistaken please enlighten me :wub:

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Gurfateh!!

[H4RPAL]

I may be way off here, and may offend some people or whatnot, but the halo is obviously there to show whatever individual is under it is special. Lets look at the alternative used by others to convey this 'speciality'- ie giving people extra limbs, or body parts of animals etc etc- I think I prefer the halo personally.

Sorry to all, but just had to be said.

[moorakh mugadh]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

dhan shabad