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actually...

in sadh sangat...we don't put our kirtanis on a pedestal like they do in other jatha samagams....most of the people that do kirtan at a sadh sangat samagam also do a million other sevas in the samagam...

the kirtan aspect is only one aspect of the totality of the samagam...there is langar seva, panday seva, shoe seva, airport seva, cleaning washroom seva...and i don't kow about you..but i've always admired the singh quietly cleaning the washrooms much more than just seeing someone do kirtan....in fact...i usually don't even pay attention to who is doing kirtan...it's the gurbani being sung that i'm paying attention to.....maybe we should all focus more on the gurbani and we wouldn't be arguing over such silly issues......

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but you see when they go infront of the sangat they become role models ..

actuallly.. u are very rite there... but... thats being said in a different context...

lemme talk from personal experience..

when i FIRST started coming into sikhi about 10 years ago... i was a mona... my family didn't really know the first thing about sikhi.. i didn't know what sadh sangat, akj, taksal or nethin was... i barely even knwe the 10 gurus...

when i started coming to sangat... to tell u the truth the FIRSt thing that attracted me was tabla ... so i started to learn that.. at the same time... i started to learn kirtan.. slowly, slowly i started gettin more n more into sikhi/sangat.. i was ALLOWED to develop as a sikh... in some places we see more 'force' used on youth to get into sikhi... i dunno tha's jes my perception.. anywayz.. i would've never have started growing my hair or would've never have taken amrit if the sangat had not WELCOMED and even ENCOURAGED me with open arms... nobody looked at the fact i had cut hair.. nobody bothered me about not knowing much about sikhi.. through love and sangat i am who i am today.. and without this sort of love and seva that the sangat gave me i wouldn't be where i am... i would probably be some druggy or somethin like all the people i grew up with up to that point..

moral of the story?... the person who was playin tabla when i first fell in love with it was a mona... the persons kirtan who mesmorized me.. at the time was NOT amritdhari... and i was about 10 then, and they were just a few years older then ma..see even monay's and non-amritdhari's can influence people... in my head i was thinkin 'wow if he's acceptd and he's not even amritdhari, and that guy over there's a mona, then even i can start tabla and kirtan in sangat as well'.. that alone is encouragement...

bhul chuk maaf..

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh..!!

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Guest SikhForLife

im glad u pointed that out Heera Singh ji.. and thats the whole issue.. how flexible should we get.. should we say its OK.. so other people also feel accepted.. but that might have negative consequences as well.. just as you felt the love and the want to be like them for the better.. some kid could also say he doesnt want to keep his garb because and so and so could do keertan infront of the sangat while not keeping his..

so the issue here as i pointed in my orignial post is how flexible should we get?

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if someone is coming to the monas house they are coming willingly.. u put a mona in GW to do keertan.. then you may be violating the will of the sangat..

u see wat i mean?

no, not at all actually..... for the large majority, i'd hope that gurdwara's a place to listen to keertan, not look and scope out the keertanis....

i believ eit was mentioned earlier

... u put a "sardar" guy who does drugs .. and if that fact is known.. its the same thing

so what you're saying is it's all about knowledge... for some reason, you'll get russ outta an amritdhari doing keertan, and oyu won't get russ outta a non-amritdhari doing keertan.

what if it's an amritdhari who keeps no rehit, sleeps around with girls, smokes pot, but it's just that no one knows! he continues to wear his baana, and goes to gurdwara and does seva... i bet someone would think he's a wicked gursikh!, and when he does keertan, MAHAAAAN RUSS!!!

it's utter stupidity to decide who can and can't perform seva....

what if tomorrow, it's against the will of the sangat to have a "mona" doing washroom seva.. what if an amrtidhari says that it's impure, and only amritdharis shoulod do that seva..or langar vartaan di seva.. or whatever.... and then, we'll all assume that that's how it's supposed to be and then when we attempt to make it "lenient" again, we'll be uttering words like:

how flexible are we to get ?
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Guest SikhForLife

I dont like to degrade people Japmans, but i think you also need reading glasses. wat is with some people, they dont read and understand the post and are so quick to hit the reply button ...

lemme break it down for you:

so what you're saying is it's all about knowledge... for some reason, you'll get russ outta an amritdhari doing keertan, and oyu won't get russ outta a non-amritdhari doing keertan.

no, Gurbani is Gurbani no matter who sings it, i think everyone should listen to keertan no matter who the keertani is.. and i dont think thats the issue here.. the issue here is should monas do keertan infront of the sangat.. and you can read my views on that..

what if it's an amritdhari who keeps no rehit, sleeps around with girls, smokes pot, but it's just that no one knows! he continues to wear his baana, and goes to gurdwara and does seva... i bet someone would think he's a wicked gursikh!, and when he does keertan, MAHAAAAN RUSS!!!

ofcourse, you maybe able to read their minds .. but others cant, and for others hes a Gursikh. I am sure there are some keertanis who drink alcohol, but as long as I dont know that hes not hurting the value of his representation as a Sikh.. you cant judge someone's sprituality, but you can judge their appearance.. like it or not it is needed when you pick a leader/role model.

it's utter stupidity to decide who can and can't perform seva....

i dont think its stupid, when it comes to a visible representation (ie leading the sangat in ardaas, taking Hukamnamma from Guruji, president/secretary of GW etc) I think people who are committed towards being Gursikhs by respecting the Sikh Garb and standards should only be allowed.

what you say however is utter hypocrisy, people can preach and preach but if they cannot abide to the bare MINIMUM of keeping garb and not doing drugs then i dont think they shud be up there preaching in the first place.. !! we all have our flaws but we should atleast try to be Sikh .. and keeping the appearance is the easiest thing..

there are plenty of other sevas they can do.. i dont see anything wrong with them making langar, serving langar, or cleaning the GW..

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i dont think its stupid, when it comes to a visible representation (ie leading the sangat in ardaas, taking Hukamnamma from Guruji, president/secretary of GW etc) I think people who are committed towards being Gursikhs by respecting the Sikh Garb and standards should only be allowed.

what you say however is utter hypocrisy, people can preach and preach but if they cannot abide to the bare MINIMUM of keeping garb and not doing drugs then i dont think they shud be up there preaching in the first place.. !! we all have our flaws but we should atleast try to be Sikh .. and keeping the appearance is the easiest thing..

there are plenty of other sevas they can do.. i dont see anything wrong with them making langar, serving langar, or cleaning the GW..

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Veerji i respect your views...

But the main thing i think your trying to get at is role models. What i believe ji, there is NO perfect way of a good role model. Sikhi is all about pyaar, with you and guru sahib.

Jio, if you look at this with a open eye, i dont think it would make a huge difference in todays gurdwara. We have main people (all granthis, jathas) who do lkirtan are amritdhari, but no one listens. Ji i was on the wrong track before and just listening to them was no inspiration for me watsoever. I can say straight that they had no effect on my sikhi, cuz i know what some of those babai did in real life, it just put me further away from sikhi. But seeing, chotai bachai, bibian, and people who are not amritdhari doing seva was a lot for me to change my views toward sikhi. AND.. when i saw a mona do kirtan, i was like wow, this is amazing.

Ask yourself this question ji, would guru sahib stop him from doing kirtan in sangat. Say if Dhan dashmesh pita himself was sitting in sangat, what would he say....

bhul chuk maph!

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Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

I'm surprised to think that some of you think that amritdharis are the only ones who can do keertan.

Lets break it down simply: in GURU-SAHIB'S time... EVERYONE DID KEERTAN, regardless of caste, creed, RELIGION, cuthaired, amritdhari!!!

If it was good enough then, its certainly good enough now!!! The big thing is how is a monay person supposed to get involved with Sikhism unless they are allowed to do guru da seva and keertan? That is how they realize the power of Waheguroo and from there move on to taking amrit.

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

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Guest noonespecial

SikhForLife Veerji,

You said keeping garb (appearance) is the easiest thing. In fact, it's not veerji. Living as a Singh is NOT an easy thing for alot of people.

But there's more to a person than simply the clothes he/she wears.

Are you suggesting that the clothes that one wears makes a difference if he/she is allowed to do kirtan?

I understand that you feel that these kirtanees are role models of some sort, but what if the Sangat doesn't see them as that way? Let's suppose the whole Sangat see's a non-amritdhari person doing kirtan and doesn't even care? Then it shouldn't matter, should it? Afterall, doesn't the Sangat's Hukam trump anything we may feel as individuals?

You also stated that some people in the Sangat may feel uncomfortable with someone non-amritdhari doing kirtan. But a few people feeling uncomfortable is not an issue. I may feel uncomfortable with JSS doing kirtan because I personally don't like him, but why should what I feel be imposed on the Sangat? Ultimately being in Sangat is not about expressing your individuality, it's about melding into ONE.

As Professor Puran Singh writes:

"the All beoming the image of One, and the One becoming the image of All - is the spirit of the Guru's Sadh Sangat. This assembly in His inspiration was unique. Sadh is the one lost, the Sangat is the one gained.."

How can something be of the Inspiration of Guru Sahib and still be meant to exclude people?

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