Ur Views

[S1ngh]

How about we wrap up this discussion (put ur conclusion) and then leave the issue aside ?

[smartsingh24]

CONCLUSION

Monay shouldn't do kirtan because it's setting an example and an image in people's mind that isn't easily erased. A sikh's first duty is to take amrit as stated here

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=92

The main argument in opposition to this is that if people weren't able to do kirtan, they wouldn't become sikhs. But is that a just cause to become a sikh? How can one be turned away from sikhi just because they aren't given the chance yet to become a kirtani? If a person wanted to become a sikh, they'd do it because they have love of sikhi, not love of kirtan. The danger is that people get addicted to kirtan and forget about what they should really be doing with kirtan. Kirtan is only an ends to a mean, and as I see it, the only way that a person can become a kirtani is if they are first a sikh.

[Jaspaul Singh]

CONCLUSION

Monay shouldn't do kirtan because it's setting an example and an image in people's mind that isn't easily erased. A sikh's first duty is to take amrit as stated here

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=92

The main argument in opposition to this is that if people weren't able to do kirtan, they wouldn't become sikhs. But is that a just cause to become a sikh? How can one be turned away from sikhi just because they aren't given the chance yet to become a kirtani? If a person wanted to become a sikh, they'd do it because they have love of sikhi, not love of kirtan. The danger is that people get addicted to kirtan and forget about what they should really be doing with kirtan. Kirtan is only an ends to a mean, and as I see it, the only way that a person can become a kirtani is if they are first a sikh.

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Veerji that is your view on whether or not monay should be allowed to do kirtan or not. TILL there not an official hukam from akal takht (which i doubt there ever will be) we have no right to say if they can not do kirtan.

[singhmota]

This thread is shocking! I never thought I would ever read this kind of stuff on a "sikh" messageboard.

You guys need to research what Guru Sahib says on this. If everyone here read gurbani, discussions like this would never arise. Read the 22 Vars specifically they truly open your eyes to gurmat. There are way too many examples in gurbani about amrit, which I won't list here; you have tools like sikhitothemax for that. I think this has been discussed here before too, do a search on it(wasn't this one of the new rules?). But seriously before you start typing away posts have you ever thought what the joyt of the 10 Gurus might be thinking of you? I know my post will not make any difference on some of the people that posted above but consider the following, I’m sure you have seen these lines before:

SABBAT SOORAT RUB DEE BHANNAI BAEEMAN|

Dharrai Kes Pahual bina BHEKHI MOORKH Sikh|

PRATHAM Rehat(first discipline of a sikh) eah jan, Khanday  kI pahual shakai(Become AmritDhari)|

Soyee singh bhardhan, avar nah pauhal jo laye|

86332[/snapback]

The first jot of the 10 did NOT have a amritdhari sikh accompaning him in keertan.

Any comments davinder singh ji?

And a 'sikh' message message board is about learning isnt it? And many people learn here. Also if Gursikhs like you do some posts using gurbani tuks from Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather refering people to some software maybe some one out there will go on the right path of love and gurbani and not see the sikhs as some ego filled venom/hatred spewing individuals who dont want to share anything positive but just want to slag off

[Jaspaul Singh]

The first jot of the 10 did NOT have a amritdhari sikh accompaning him in keertan.

Any comments davinder singh ji?

And a 'sikh' message message board is about learning isnt it? And many people learn here. Also if Gursikhs like you do some posts using gurbani tuks from Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather refering people to some software maybe some one out there will go on the right path of love and gurbani and not see the sikhs as some ego filled venom/hatred spewing individuals who dont want to share anything positive but just want to slag off

86418[/snapback]

WAHEGUROOOOO :umm:

[Sher Khalsa]

WJKK WJKF,

Non-sikhs like muslims should be allowed to do keertan without restriction, because we dont expect them the be amrithari...

but when born into a Sikh family, if you dont commit urself to your religion meaning take amrit, which isnt a choice it an order to us. Than how can you go on stage and do keertan which is basically preaching and singing praises of god and guru, when you dont follow it yourself. Am i the only one that see's a contradiction?

Monai can do keertan at home, with their families, but I dont think non-amrithari's should do sewa such as chaur sahib, katha, keertan, at the gurdwara. Non-amrihtaris are also free to do other sewa around the gurdwara, theres so much sewa to be done.

I know in some communities such as Ottawa there is not enough amritharis to allow the gurdwara to operate without the help of non-amritharis...

but in places such as Brampton, Malton, Surrey, etc (where there are enough amritharis)... these types of sewas should be done be amritharis. AS IT IS STATED IN AKAL TAKHT MARYADA

[Guest Sony]

The most beautiful thing about our religion, is the love and openess it has for everyone. thinking of everyone as equal. our guru's showed us this by not differentiating between religions when they put the shabads of many different people from different cultures in guru granth sahib. why did this happen? because our guru's know that in the end, its whats inside a person, the love that they feel that is the true religion. they tried to show us this, that religion does not have to do with rituals, or appearances, it has to do with whats inside. we have examples, like Dhana Bhagat, here was someone who was not religious, he did not follow what a "hindu" was supposed to do, i dont think he prayed very much, but he found that love, he was blessed and he made his guru appear from a rock. this is religion. we've accepted him as a bhagat right? these examples were given to us by our guru ji. why should we try to stop someone, u never know what they are feeling inside or what guru ji has planned for them.

many times, when someone does a speech they say, if my words have touched even one person, im happy and i've accomplished my goal. just one person, it makes a huge difference, because that one person will go and talk to others... so if we accept people who are not completely into sikhi, and even one of those people start on the path of sikhi.... then isnt that a good thing?

like i said before, just because a mona person is doing kirtan, i dont think people will look at him or her and be like oh i can get away with it, it will be that these people are accepting and i would like to get to know them better. and that becomes a starting point for them.

and in the end, again its up to guru ji. if they dont want someone to do kirtan, that person will be stopped... for one reason or another they will be stopped. its guru ji's hukum. we are not good enough to judge anybody.

pul chuk maaf

Fateh

[sukhnidhaan]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Speaking for myself, keertanis have been a 'role model' simply because the part that singing Guru Jee's jas has played in my life since as long as I can remember has been SOOOO huge. I've been lucky to have sangat of many keertanis throughout my life. We must remember that many of these may also be accomplished Gursikhs and are not just singers! It is from short but powerful, concise messages and seeing their application in life that das has been inspired. The truly humble ones, like Bhai Rama Singh Jee do other sevas, e.g. in the jorRda ghar, AS WELL AS keertan.

I truly believe it is the power of keertan that has kept me going when things seemed to hit a dead end, so to speak. Master Niranjan Singh Jee of Gurdaspur once said to me when they were staying at our house, 'Always go to keertan programmes with the mindset of :music: LISTENING to the keertan...then IF you get time, all well and good.' They still encouraged me, like a lot of the gr8 keertanis to keep up LEARNING and practising.

Guru Maharaaj says 'Kaljug meh KEERTAN PARDHAANA'

Bhai Daljinder Singh's (Patiala vale) emphasis was on getting shabads 'kantth'- this requires much dedication and revision so as not to forget Guru Sahib's words as oudO man che vas janda hai...the hymns stick in your head! (Also it leads to greater concentration and disrespect of potheeaa(n) is outta the question). He also placed a lot of effort in doing 'khoj' of his keertan themes and finding loads of 'new' shabads. :umm:

I believe it is the keertan that has authority over the keertani, and not vice versa. Those keertani are truly blessed that fit a tune to a shabad; Bhai Niranjan Singh (Javaddi Kalaa vale) was speaking of this on a Gurmat Sangeet veechaar on Sukh Sagar radio once. Music helps deliver the message of Dhur Kee Baani on all levels, e.g. emotional, spiritual..so helps us mere mortals to 'connect' to a Higher level, i.e. GOD/ our inner spark of God- soul.

Kirpa karo deen kae datae, meraa gun avgun na veechaarO koi'

Bhulla(n) chukaa(n) di khimaan bakhshani jeeO!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

[GuruManeyoGranth]

How about we wrap up this discussion (put ur conclusion) and then leave the issue aside ? 

86387[/snapback]

:umm: :cool:

Looks like we got many divided views/opinions here. However, we got more similarities than differences. As Sukhnidhaan Bhaen Jee put it nicely above:

I believe it is the keertan that has authority over the keertani, and not vice versa. Those keertani are truly blessed that fit a tune to a shabad; Bhai Niranjan Singh (Javaddi Kalaa vale) was speaking of this on a Gurmat Sangeet veechaar on Sukh Sagar radio once. Music helps deliver the message of Dhur Kee Baani on all levels, e.g. emotional, spiritual..so helps us mere mortals to 'connect' to a Higher level, i.e. GOD/ our inner spark of God- soul.

Kirpa karo deen kae datae, meraa gun avgun na veechaarO koi' 

Bhulla(n) chukaa(n) di khimaan bakhshani jeeO!

We do Keertan to join our Surat/Mind with our Guru and Waheguru. The more pyaar with which we join with Gurbani, the better. Remember, it is the Gurbani that is our saviour, not the tunes. As long as we all remember this, we all benefit from singing the Lord's praises through Keertan. :T:

It seems that the Sangat cannot reach consensus on the issue above. With sincere and humble Ardaas, may Guru Jee bless us with Samatt and Sojhi to follow the Guru's Path.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

[singhmota]

the transformation of chaman lal to bhai chamanjit singh is a perfect example of how a mona who does kirtan can become a sikh with the piyar love and affection the sangat gives to individuals

so its upto the sangat to give piyar love and affection to people so that they join sikhi as opposed to using harsh words and red-tapisim to drive people off and give an impresion to the world that sikh religion is a controlled cult

the first stone for harimandir sahib (which is the inspiration and the center of sikh kirtan) was NOT laid by an amritdhari sikh or a person to whom guroo sahib did prescribe any rehat.

It was Sain Mian Meer Ji. Maybe we need to make new harimandir sahib whose first stone needs to be placed by some hardcore sikhs, then we can restrict entry to only for sikhs and so on???

Where are we going Khalsa Ji?????????