Ur Views

[V]

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa VAheguru ji ki Fatej

I'm going to be a devils advocate during this whole post

JSS veer jio said -

one question:...given the chance would you tell our guru ji's that letting sufis to do kirtan in harmandir sahib was the wrong decision?...are you going to tell the gurus that the descendents of Mardana should NEVER have been allowed to do kirtan because as far as we know, they never converted to sikhi...

two things - One you are wrong if you're saying tha Bhai Mardana ji's decendents weren't given a rehit

It wasn't like

BHai Mardana said - " BHaji can I follow you?"

Guru Sahib - "Yeah pack you clothes and you're set"

Guru Sahib ji gave hima REHIT to follow

As fart as I know Guru Sahib ji gave BHai Mardana ji three rehits -

Not to do Kesa Di beadbi

WAke up Amritvela

can't remember the third one.

there WAS a Rehit BHai mardana ji had to follow, there WAS a REHIT that BHai Sata and Balwand ji had to follow.

I think it was BHai Bijla Singh ji who wrote something along the lines that, a few people claiming to be of desendants of BHai mardana ji used to do kirtan in Gurdwaras. It was later on seen tha they used to do 'kurli' - bi Kafra di Bani ari eh, and used to do drugs - that is a STRAIGHT MOCK to Gurbani!

I think we're beginnig to have a duoble moral tha whenever we feel like bashing a jathebandi we begin quoting Akal Takht saying how Supreme it is, however when we ourself disagree we shy away. If i'm not mistaken one of the Paji's here posted in the Bibia in Panj thread said soemthing along the lines that 'We should do What Akal Takhat Says'

What's happened now????

WE like quoting Akal Takht when it fits us the best, but other times we just ignore Akal Takht

Same goes for me, I do the same, hence why i'm trying to stick to something noweither I ALWAYS use Akal Takhat Maryada, or I do't at all, instead of quoting Akal Takhat Sahib whenver it fits me best....

KB SIngh Sahib made a really nice comparison about ROLE MODEL.

But then again as JSS ji said - the Washroom seva is the best, which is probably the one i should be doing right now, instead of wasting my time here........

Yes I'm having a hard time comign to a Conclusion, bttu I don't think that no matter how much evidence or posted for or against - no1's going to change their views - so why waste time?

Bhull chukk maaf

Vaheguru ji ka KHalsa VAheguru ji ki Fateh

[Shaheed]

as for muslims doing kirtan they dont make claims that they are sikh, so we let them do it as guests......

if its come down to personal examples, not even 10 yrs ago, but presently im NOT A SIKH, b/c i have not taken khanda da phula......like Heera veerji 10 yrs ago im a mona now.....and from my personal expirence i can say that alot of ppl who like me are gettin to know sikhi, are showing off reallyyy.....i know thats a hugee generalization but i have one specific example

i seen ppl drinkin smirnoffs and eating meat and with companions (boyfriend/girlfriend) and they feel a lilll guilty soo they do kirtan the next morning

those same hands that were grasping a bottle of liqor are in a matter of hourss holding gurbani in there hands, and that makes me sick. these pp arent even new to sikhi they have been part of it for years...

now we should ask whyyyy did this happen?

it happened b/c we accidently have shown that u dont need rehit/amrit to be a sikh b/c they already are a sikh....theres anything a guru ka sikh (amritdhari) has that they cannot.....soo really weve taken away all incentives to take amrit.

thats why i disagree

[Khalsa4ever]

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

Please lets not forget that there is a difference between a SIKH (one who wishes to learn from the Guru) and an Amritdhari Sikh (one who has already sworn to remain on the path).

Sikhs exist along a wide spectrum... some are almost ready for amrit, others haven't even started to look deep into Sikhism. But we CANNOT expect someone to understand the value of SEVA, SIMRAN, and GURBANI, if we DO NOT LET THEM practice these things where other Gursikhs are around, like Gurdwara.

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

[DhadiMania]

on the orders of certain members of sangat, i have been ordered to post more.

didnt someone else ask this and many singhs came foreward and said only amritdharis can do this (back inthe old days when SS and W!N were ek?)

well never mind

ok, i am a moona, and i have nothing to hide on that (even if i do feel bad about it etc). personally i feel that moonai doin kirtan is wrong for many reasons.

1. SGGS talks alot about amrit, and some of the moonai i have seen on alpha punjabi on shabad kirtan sing about how great amrit it etc, yet they have not taken it? if your going on stage, you have to practice what you preach.

look at these pics...

http://www.oldcountrytours.com/graphics/redsoldiers.jpg

http://english.people.com.cn/200406/13/images/queen.jpg

http://www.musosmedia.com.au/color2003.jpg

these are some images from britains famous "trooping of the color"

one time as a little kid, id admire these soldiers and say "one day i want to be one of them" but of course that was 10 years ago.

anyway, do you see what they are wearing? red coats and a funny hat, (bear skins). even the people who play the instruments like drums, trumpet, trombone they all have to wear the same thing. the Queens "maryada"

if i came to the trooping the color as that little kid who imagined himself to be one of them soldiers, but this time came with my jeans and t-shirt and i started to play a trombone or something, would you honestly think that the other soldiers would allow me to? NO!

why is that? well the age barrier is one, but lets not look at that, what would i be wearing? and my appearence? well, lets say its not the queens standard.

i am suprsised some singhs would actually allow moonai to do kirtan.

if some singhs here have strong views about moonai not being allowed to take up the gyaanis job of reading paath etc, then why would you allow a moona to do kirtan? if he was to do kirtan, then let him do all the other jobs, including doing the karah prashad di sewa (as well as making it) and reading from maharaj.

coming back to this topic, i say that amritdharis are the only people who are fit enough to do kirtan, as it is they who have the outside appearence (and in most cases the inside as well). i am not saying that moonai should not be taken seriously, but when it comes to kirtan, maharaj wants you to learn all of sggs and want you to sing all of SGGS. what would stop the typical moona from singing all of the bani is shabads talking about amrit, i think they need to practice what they preach.

if the worst comes to worst, i would say that moonai should do kirtan at home and get anand there, not at the gurdwara, regardless of how old fashion i am, its one rule that i will always stick at.

gustaphi maaf

[Guest noonespecial]

The overall tone of your argument was based on

1. Monay don't " look" like amritdhari people.

2. Monay should practice what they preach.

Basically only limiting amritdhari people to do kirtan is, in my opinon, dumb. If ONLY amritdhari people were allowed to do kirtan then I think that japmans and heera veerji as well as JSS wouldn't be amritdhari right now. If letting someone get a taste of Sikhi life (i.e. doing kirtan) encourages them to become Gursikhs then who is anyone to call it bad?

My last trip to Darbar Sahib was amazing because as I walked out of Akal Takhat I saw 5-6 Monay doing seva of CLEANING THE CHAUR SAHIBS. I was AMAAZED! I know people will take this and say "see? they weren't doing kirtan were they?" But even Muslims have done kirtan at Darbar Sahib. In any case, this seva could EASILY be reserved for Singhs...but it was soo nice to see that these monay were being given a chance to participate, and I could tell that they were LOVING it!

Sikhi is not about exclusion. It's not about I'll give you LOVE when you join my group. Until then...nothing! lol..

As far as the slippery slope argument how if you allow a mona to do one thing, then you should allow him to do EVERYTHING..well that doesn't make logical sense to me because the reverse can be applied as well. If you're gonna get amritdhari people to do EVERYTHING then you might as well lock the doors on monay and not allow them to come to Gurudwara. How do you plan on encouraging people to follow the path of Sikhi?

I can't even name ONE person who decided to take Amrit who was not encouraged by the Sangat of Gursikhs. However I can name at least 3 people on this forum alone that were encouraged into becoming Gursikhs by having them involved in all of the aspect of Sangat.

i dunno...my two cents.

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh!

[Princess]

Totally agree with "someone special"!

I don't think anyone has the right to tell "monai" they can't do kirtin

We can't generalize and say that all "monai" drink/do drugs n then do kirtin the next morning like somebody mentioned because the same can be said about a person who is amritdhari. There are those who claim to be Sikh and then do anti-sikh things...

I say let anyone do kirtin, we are noone to judge anyone

If they (amritdhari or monai) did do non-sikh things like drink the last day then God will punish!

We shoudnt prevent anyone from not doing kirtin because if we stop someone from doing kirtin and the person wanted to do it outa love for the Guru and someday follow the path to Sikhi then that would be a paap on our heads.

If we stop a mona from doing kirtin then we are committing a sin and also the mona will think bad of Sikhs and never come onto the path of Sikhi.

Instead of discouraging them i believe we should encourage and help them out.

Instead of committing a sin i say we should do seva and help our brothers n sisters

:TH: :umm:

[smartsingh24]

There's been instance where people that aren't in sikhi pose as sikhs and go on stage and preach gurbani, luring people into their fake facade and trying to make them advocates for their cause. These people include namdharis, RSS, and tons of other cultish people that do it through music. These people look like sikhs, and yet people still allow them to do kirtan. Monai people on the other hand, are not willing enough to commit themselves, but they are willing to do kirtan anyway, because they wanna be in sikhi, but not that in. Until you are ready to take amrit, it's best for you not to do kirtan, because people will start to follow the examples you set forth. This is about making an ideal that people aspire to. How many people do you think would be amrithdhari today if Bhai Randhir singh was a monai?

[Guest SikhForLife]

it is quite unfortunate that a lot of you dont like to read or somehow miss-understand and jump to conclusions:

first off: this arguement never was about Amrit Tharis vs Non-Amritharis

this is the second time i am saying this within this thread.. please try to read all posts before replying..

let me re-cap for all the people trying to divert the subject.

Sikhs-normal ones- who are not amrit thari- but make an effort to keep their sikh uniform show commitment should be encouraged to do keertan infront of the sangat.. so they could eventually become Khalsas...

monas-normal ones- who are not amrit thari(ofcourse)- but make NO effort to keep their sikh uniform-show no commitment -should be encouraged to become part of the sangat but should not be doing keertan/taking hukams/doing chaur sahib seva/doing ardaas etc. because they have yet to EARN that right.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji .. did not just allow everyone to become his payare.. he asked them to GIVE him Their Heads..

how soon have we forgotten his legacy..

this isnt communist russia where everyone gets a share of the pie.. you gotta earn your food..

Basically only limiting amritdhari people to do kirtan is, in my opinon, dumb

yes it is.

[Guest Sony]

Fateh,

but veerji, where is it that you draw the line? im not saying your view is wrong. I agree that you do have to earn in order to do guru ji's seva, but who is the one to judge this, how do we judge if someone has earned enough to do kirtan, to do langar dee seva..... when u think about it, if guru ji does not want someone to do kirtan, they will be stopped in some way, because its guru ji's hukum. to me thats how i see that they have earned or have not earned the seva yet.

besides, when u say, Sikhs - normal ones, and Monas - normal ones, it may be easier to define the men, but what about the woman? some believe that the keski must be worn, others have other methods in which their heads are always covered. others use just a chunni to cover their heads. should we be defferentiating? some woman apply makeup, others dont, others may use just lip gloss..... how do we defferentiate? when we start to argue a point like this, then we go back to Amrit and rehat, and a whole argument can be started again on this bases, do u know what i mean?

its true that there are some people who pretend to be sikh and wrongfully preach. but again, these people, if they are trying to mislead us, will probably put on a sikhi front in the first place. its our duty as sikhs to show people that what they are preaching is wrong. and to show them that they are using the sikhi saroop in the wrong way and to stop them. there are others who are honest and feel that they are not ready to commit one hundred percent. they need time.... no one in our religion is pushed into sikhism, its a choice we make, however, if they need time, should we not encourage them? they are at different points... i know that i am not ready to wear a keski as of yet. i dont have what it takes to show it the respect that it needs. i wish with all my heart that one day guru ji offers me this great gift of wearing a keski, but right now i odnt think i would be able to respect it properly, but because of this i am not allowed to kirtan with certain sangats, this in a way hurts, however, i enjoy listening to kirtan more neway, but still.... my point is, where do u draw the line, and who is the person that will judge, since each individual person is different and at a different stage in life and in sikhi.... why dont we leave it up to guru ji, encourage sikhi if we can. slowly show them the meanings of what they are singing and saying.

pul chuk maaf

Fateh

[Guest JSS]

k...

i just notice one thing....

all the PRO "mona can do kirtan" have provided solid proof of the benefits of allowing people to do kirtan...there are examples on this forum of people who's lives were transformed through doing kirtan...

YET

all the ANTI "mona can do kirtan" keep talking about the HYPOTHETIC...NONE of them have provided ANY support to their NARROW MINDED, SHORT SIGHTED assertions that monas doing kirtan is a bad thing...

people lets talk based on FACTS..not on what you just think.....anyhow..it's apparent this debate is going nowhere...becasue people refuse to look at the facts and evidence provided and one side has no evidence to support anything...

in fact...precedence shows that non-amritdharis, muslims have been allowed to do kirtan in the past and STILL do kirtan in a lot of gurdwaras....