Ur Views

[Guest Sony]

just to add on, when it comes to role models, most people it hink can distinguish between a "Sikh" and how guru ji had said a "Sikh" should be, and a mona person doing kirtan.

there is a difference, and if there are people that do not see the difference, then we are the ones who are not doing our duty in explaining to them.

I think if someone see's a mona person doing kirtan, they would think, he is a person on the path to sikhi. not that oh i can do whatever, because he is doing it..... When a person sees a man or a woman in guru jis bana and as guru ji's saroop, they know the difference, so the idea that they will become role models just doesnt hold.

pul chuk maaf

Fateh

[Guest SikhForLife]

when it comes to role models, most people it hink can distinguish between a "Sikh" and how guru ji had said a "Sikh" should be, and a mona person doing kirtan.

there is a difference, and if there are people that do not see the difference, then we are the ones who are not doing our duty in explaining to them.

veerji you are absolutely correct.. that is the only solution.. if we are to encourage monas to lead the sangat..

JSS, what could be a bigger fact than the fact that you need to earn the right.. im sure u believe in 1699..

besides i wouldnt be able to provide you with test results of mona role models and children in Sikhi.. so sorry to disappoint you.. and yes my arguements are purely theortical due to common sense and my limited knowledge in psychology.. and i dont want to fabricate stories and present them as 'facts'

although i can provide you with panthic decisions and present them as rules: (without Re_Defining the definition of who is a Sikh)

Chap 5 Article 6:

(a) Only a Sikh may perform kitran in a congregation

(d) Only a Sikh may read out from the Guru Granth for others. However , even a non-Sikh may read from it for himself/herself.

now JSS, does this make the entire panth short-sighted and narrowminded ?

when we start to argue a point like this, then we go back to Amrit and rehat, and a whole argument can be started again on this bases, do u know what i mean?

yes, but we are trying to reach a consensus without the need for a rebellion against the marayda

[Guest JSS]

sikhforlife..you have taken this debate in a new direction...

you presented the panthic decisions...

yet you are assuming that SIKH means someone who is AMRITDHARI...

yet the SRM doesn't say that; nowhere does it EXPLICITLY say that A sikh is someone who is AMRIDHARI...the wording they have used is open to interpretation....so many people can interpret that they are sikh because they FAITHFULLY believe in khanday battay da amrit..but haven't taken it yet....and so then they would be entitled to do kirtan........

are you now going to say that YOUR interpretation is more correct than theirs?

[DAVINDERSINGH]

This thread is shocking! I never thought I would ever read this kind of stuff on a "sikh" messageboard.

You guys need to research what Guru Sahib says on this. If everyone here read gurbani, discussions like this would never arise. Read the 22 Vars specifically they truly open your eyes to gurmat. There are way too many examples in gurbani about amrit, which I won't list here; you have tools like sikhitothemax for that. I think this has been discussed here before too, do a search on it(wasn't this one of the new rules?). But seriously before you start typing away posts have you ever thought what the joyt of the 10 Gurus might be thinking of you? I know my post will not make any difference on some of the people that posted above but consider the following, I’m sure you have seen these lines before:

SABBAT SOORAT RUB DEE BHANNAI BAEEMAN|

Dharrai Kes Pahual bina BHEKHI MOORKH Sikh|

PRATHAM Rehat(first discipline of a sikh) eah jan, Khanday kI pahual shakai(Become AmritDhari)|

Soyee singh bhardhan, avar nah pauhal jo laye|

[DhadiMania]

just here sitting and observing peoples views on moonai not doing kirtan.

say ifa moona, wants to be a katha vicharak in his spare time, would it be justified he would be allowed to go on stage?

what about gatka?

and being a granthi singh?

a moona would be allowed to do all that on the basis that they would want to do all that later on in life?

if people say moonai are allowed to do kirtan, why is it that some of these people have strong views about moonai doing gatka? reading paath from maharaj to the sangat or even being a katha vicharak? because at the end of the day, if some singhs here say that moonai can do kirtan, then they should be able to all that above.

gustaphi maaf

[Guest SikhForLife]

wow JSS, you seriously need help man.. im sorry, but i cant repeat myself anymore that i already have..

you are assuming that SIKH means someone who is AMRITDHARI

uhh no, please re-read

[Guest noonespecial]

SikhforLife I get what you're saying.

Kandola, OBVIOUSLY we're not talking about mona's being Granthi's or Kathavaachaks. As I stated before don't bring in the slippery slope argument because in my opinion it doesn't really apply. Plus I already commented on the slippery slope argument a few posts above.

I think the main thing here is how much tolerance and love should be given to someone who is not Sikh, or trying to become a Sikh. As for Sikhforlife veerji, I know that you're arguement was not Amritdhari vs. Non Amritdhari, but that's what people have turned it into and so that's what's being debated (stupid yes, but ya can't help it..hhehe)

Another underlying issue here is people that think that kirtanees are ROLE MODELS. I personally, don't look at a kirtanee as a role model. They're just doing seva. I have more respect for the baba in the bathroom cleaning the toilets than I do than the kirtanee up on stage. A kirtanee is up on stage so they have the public eye on them. However, I think someone doing GUPT seva like cleaning shoes and cleaning bathrooms is the REAL role model.

Why are kirtanees role models ANYWAYS?

anyone?...

[no_one]

I can..understand..perspectives of both sides

but out of curiosity, what do our rehat maryadas say about this?

[Jaspaul Singh]

This thread is shocking! I never thought I would ever read this kind of stuff on a "sikh" messageboard.

You guys need to research what Guru Sahib says on this. If everyone here read gurbani, discussions like this would never arise. Read the 22 Vars specifically they truly open your eyes to gurmat. There are way too many examples in gurbani about amrit, which I won't list here; you have tools like sikhitothemax for that. I think this has been discussed here before too, do a search on it(wasn't this one of the new rules?). But seriously before you start typing away posts have you ever thought what the joyt of the 10 Gurus might be thinking of you? I know my post will not make any difference on some of the people that posted above but consider the following, I’m sure you have seen these lines before:

SABBAT SOORAT RUB DEE BHANNAI BAEEMAN|

Dharrai Kes Pahual bina BHEKHI MOORKH Sikh|

PRATHAM Rehat(first discipline of a sikh) eah jan, Khanday  kI pahual shakai(Become AmritDhari)|

Soyee singh bhardhan, avar nah pauhal jo laye|

86332[/snapback]

WOW .. veerji i cannot believe what you have just said and i would like to reply to your message...

Veerj, THIS IS A SIKH MESSAGE BOARD... first of all we come on here to learn, so people like me (WHO KNOW NOTHING) can learn ...

.. you tell us to goto sikhitothemax.com or read some bani to find our answers, but veerji listen ot me... some of us are not as knowledgeable as yourself, and it hurts when people like yourself come on here and tell people to do your own researching and just go do everything yourself. We are just on here getting sangats view and asking other singhs for their input, because that is exactly what the person who started this thread wanted to do, she wanted to know OUR views on sangat.

This was just really hard to read. You cant simply yell at a person for putting their beliefs on here. I know MANY of these singhs (JSS, Heera, Japman...) and believe me they have read their bani, and they are all chardi kala guru pyare sikhs. If someone believes something, they believe that for a reason.

I know i have no knowledge to say anything to you, cuz i know nothing, but i dont know any bani, i dont know gurmukhi, and bani is something really amazing that not even the english language can explain it to us, so i come to sangat for answers. For those who discourage us to post such topics on these message boards, i would like to shake my head at them cuz that is wrong, THIS MESSAGE BOARD is for getting answers for such topics and questions that people like me ponder about.

I hope i have not said anything wrong... bhul chuk maph!

[smartsingh24]

SikhforLife I get what you're saying.

Kandola, OBVIOUSLY we're not talking about mona's being Granthi's or Kathavaachaks. As I stated before don't bring in the slippery slope argument because in my opinion it doesn't really apply. Plus I already commented on the slippery slope argument a few posts above.

I think the main thing here is how much tolerance and love should be given to someone who is not Sikh, or trying to become a Sikh.  As for Sikhforlife veerji, I know that you're arguement was not Amritdhari vs. Non Amritdhari, but that's what people have turned it into and so that's what's being debated (stupid yes, but ya can't help it..hhehe)

Another underlying issue here is people that think that kirtanees are ROLE MODELS. I personally, don't look at a kirtanee as a role model. They're just doing seva. I have more respect for the baba in the bathroom cleaning the toilets than I do than the kirtanee up on stage. A kirtanee is up on stage so they have the public eye on them. However, I think someone doing GUPT seva like cleaning shoes and cleaning bathrooms is the REAL role model.

Why are kirtanees role models ANYWAYS?

anyone?...

86351[/snapback]

How can the slippery slope argument not be brought into this? It's impossible, because the slippery slope starts here, and if you don't want to accept it, then you shouldn't come to this thread anymore, because it isn't smart to argue in a thread that's whole basis is the start of the slippery slope.

For tolerance, yes, sikhi preaches tolerance. But sikhi also preaches discipline, and the fact that discipline is the basis of sikhi negates the fact that someone can go onto a stage and do kirtan and then not be disciplined enough to follow sikhi. It isn't right, because sikhi is needed in order to do anything else. If a monay isn't willing to give his head to guru ji just because he can't do kirtan, then he isn't on the path to sikhi. As davinder singh said before, however harshly he worded it, is right. read here

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=92

I can't even respond to what you said about kirtanis. That's some of the stupidest stuff I've ever heard. Half of the people I know did kirtan and tabla at one point or another, including most of my family. How you can disrespect some of the gurmukhs that do kirtan seva bringing people closer to god is beyond me. God doesn't forget those that do gupt seva, but it isn't right to disrespect those that have diffrent gifts from god.