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I believe there is no 'right' or 'wrong' party to this issue. In my experience, both Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis have misconceptions about what Sikhi is, not just relating to Kirpan, and these things cause conflict and a bad name to the Amritdari community. Other issues, include whether kakkars and rehat are rituals, Spiritual Guru ji vs Practical dasam granth, supporting peace or condone extremism and even our Guru vs Babas/offshoot groups. I say this as a person who is hopefully about to take Amrit at the next available opportunity and who has shifted his position from anti to pro kirpan. Having moved from being a 'Mona' through from 'Keshdari' to Gursikh and hopefully Amridhari, I have seen it from the eyes of all major groups. The problems lie in not understanding core Sikhi theology of God-realisation (e.g. God, Guru, Naam) and escaping from Maya (E.g. vices, virtues and sins) as per our Guru, Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Other things are important however they are not the absolute core of Sikhi, indeed all other aspects of Sikhi are tools, techniques, methods in order to escape from and deal with the consequences of, Maya. 1. On Amrit: At the core of Amrit is being baptised as a Sikh and receiving Guru's blessings which instils naam and break from cycle of birth and death. That is the core spiritual purpose of it. It additionally also articulates a Gursikh lifestyle to enable one to break from the clutches of and to deal with the consequences of Maya. Amritdharis, Sehardaris, Keshdaris, other groups, all need to understand that in order to realise God, the accepted method is to be initiated by a Guru, which in our case is through Punj Piare to enable Guru Ji, Guru Granth Sahib ji to give us the divine knowledge and blessing needed to realise God (there are rare documented cases of sants directly appealing through meditation for naam to be instilled in someone). 2. On Sikhism and Guru vs non Sikhs and other "Gurus": There are other methods to reach God. Guru Nanak recognised this. Sikhi is not a religion which converts people by force. The spirituality appeals on its own and with God's grace, people opt for the Sikh path. None of us ordinary people are Gurus. We have no power or capacity to determine who is or isn't a Guru. Hatred and violence towards other groups which have their own self-proclaimed Gurus are unacceptable and anti-Sikhi. If they abuse us, so be it, their souls will repent for their actions. We are not religious police who need to impose our Guru on other people. If they are happy and peaceful, what is the problem? If they want to abuse us, so be it. It only becomes a problem when others persecute to the point of mass genocide which threatens survival of Sikhism itself or of swathes of innocent people (see below). Our purpose in life is to realise God, not to make other people realise god in the way you think is best, so go get on with it and hopefully leave this physical body as Guruji intends. How this relates to Amritdharis: Too many Amritdharis are extremist in their views on other Sikhi inspired groups, other religions and even other Amritdharis who they see as inferior. Non Amritdharis see this as Amritdharis going against teachings of Guruji and being violent. 3. On keeping a strict rehat and kakkars being rituals/ritualistic objects: We need to recognise that apart from those specific guidelines and orders given by Guru Granth Sahib Ji, everything else ARE RITUALS. Amritdharis should recognise that non Gurbani rehat and kakkas are rituals, however they are rituals with a purpose. The whole point of a ritual is that practising it in itself does not lead to God realisation. Like where fasting and wearing red threat on it's own do not lead to God realisation, if doing these things makes you live a pious life and remind you of your need to control vices etc, then they have served their purpose. They are nevertheless rituals. A sant may decide not to wear kirpan, it won't make a hoot of a difference because it is a practical tool to help rein in MAYA. See below for kirpan in particular. 99.9% of Siks however are not sants, they are strongly recommended to wear kakkars and follow rehat. Too many Amritdharis are too attached to their kakkars. They pine and cry when they are separated from their body. That's fine. However how many of these Amritdharis cry when they haven't had a good meditative experience or have failed to realise God? Non Amridaris then perceive this as Amridharis being hypocritical- preaching God and naam on the one hand and yet being brought to tears not by not reaching God, but by losing the tools that are meant to help us reach God. It seems on Mahapuraks and Sants yearn for naam (Gurbani states that we should all be yearning so badly for God/naam to the point where it consumes us completely and all wordly desires and attachments are forgotten). On Kirpan and violence: All Kakkas (apart from hair, which is not an object and is a core theology issue- indeed I am in the keski kakkar camp) are to control or manage the consequences of Maya, inclding Kirpan. Guru ji tells us very clearly that violence is Maya. It tells us specifically that Gurmukhs are nirvair. The reason why conflict, differences, problems etc exist in society which need some sort of force to control is purely because of our own actions, they are a consequence of Maya. If we need to use force, it is only to have to deal with the consequences of Maya in existing society largely owning to misdeeds of civilisations in the past few thousands of years. I have written in more detail on violence here. The kirpan is as symbolic as it is a practical tool- to be righteous. We all agree that it's not an offensive weapon. We also all agree on SANT-sipahi. However many Amritdharis forget this and project themselves as warriors or tough guys. They see the kirpan and other shastars as being weapons to be used in just about any conflict situation (Violence is a last resort). Some even practice martial arts to perfection, but how many practice meditation to perfection? There is nothing special about being a Sant. Each and every Gursikh is meant to be a Sant. And if Sants are willing by the Guru to use kirpan to protect the weak and innocent or to prevent Sikhism from being wiped out, then they are compelled to do so, against their better judgement that violence is wrong, and fearing the karma of their actions, because of divine intervention by the Guru to his Sant Servants. There is plenty of evidence that in the mughal era, most Gursikhs were very very highly spiritual. How many Amritdharis reach high meditative states today? Again non-Amritdharis perceive this as more reasons for not needing to take Amrit or perceving Amridharis as hypocrites. It also alienates those who are interested in Sikhi and taking Amrit but are do not want to engage in violence. On extremism and violence: As I have explained above Guru Granth Sahib ji deplores violence and hatred, and in particular, enmity (vair). Why do people praise actions of vengeance? Vengeance by definition stems from enmity and it is NOT ALLOWED, FULL STOP. Again this alienates the more peace loving Sikhs, who vye for peaceful solutions to conflict. It also encourages spin off groups like Namdharis, who wear symbolic kirpans in their dastaar (and then Sikhs begin to HATE such people, which is NOT ALLOWED). A great many Amritdharis also condone extremist ideologies. So as someone else has said before, non-Amritdharis don't have the full picture, they are in the dark. However most Amritdharis are not projecting the right image of Sikhi to other groups, so what can they expect? One word summises this debate: Maya. Please if you take one thing from this post, let it be this. Disengage from Maya and refer to Guruji for advice. Bhul chuk maaf karna. PS. I won't be monitoring this thread or replying. If I have made mistakes, please forgive me, however people do unnessarily pick arguments on this forum. I have made my point and am going underground.

There was a bhenji I knew who had committed transgression after taking Amrit, and wanted to get back to the Khalsa lifestyle. Every now and then she would pinpoint some Singhnee and say "Veere, see she does her eyebows...see she lies all the time". I always told her "Why do you always hunt for the bad examples? Have you ever come across a proper Rehitvaan Bibi?" Then one day I showed her pics of Bibis who had excessive facial hair, and asked her "Why can't you have these Bibiya as your role models?" The bhenji had no answer. My request to our abhilakhi and non-Amritdhari brothers and sisters... Please don't try to find faults in the comments and attitudes you face at the hands of Amritdharis. Nothing will justify any reason to NOT take Amrit. It is Guru Sahib's Hukam, it is Guru Sahib's Rehit, and thats it, thats what it is. If you find someone rude or disrespectful, well, thats just that person, its not part of the Rehit to be that way. So please stop finding any reason or even excuse to put down the Khalsa way of life just because some Amritdhari was mean to you. I am sure you guys are way smarter than that, but just wanted to get it across. The "Amritdharis" on this forum (and that includes me as well) may or may not be the best role models for you guys. Don't go after them and attempt to decide not to take Amrit just by thinking "Seeee!!! he/she is so much hankaari, I don't want to be like them!!!!". If you feel they are hankaari, I urge you to please take Amrit and turn around and teach the lesson of nimarta to those you perceive as arrogant. As they say, be the change you want to see.

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I make my own- Sachkhand Party Of Punjab..!!!!!!!! :run: :run:

Pyaareyo, think of it this way. When you are madly in love with someone, don't you want to give them everything you have? than man dhhan sabh soup gur ko hukam ma(n)niai paaeeai || Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him. At this point, giving up your head (i.e. ego) becomes effortless. When the fire of love rages within, and you are crazily in love with someone, there also comes a point when you even want to look like them. You are so addicted to thinking of them that each time you look in the mirror, you want to see them, not yourself. You cease to exist, all that you breathe for is the one you love. When your love for Guru Sahib reaches this most supreme point, that is when you are ready to take Amrit. That "tadap" has to be there. Bhai Gurdas Jee has also said that, prathham rehith yehi jaan kha(n)ddae kee paahul shhakae, meaning that taking Amrit is the very first Rehit. To add onto what N30S1NGH said, I've also come across monnay who put me to shame. But does that negate the need for Amrit? Does that lower the importance? I am sorry, but it doesn't. There is no doubt that Guru Sahib showers His kirpa on everyone. However, those who have taken Amrit and are living the true Gurmukh jeevan, jeeahu niramal baaharahu niramal || Inwardly pure, and outwardly pure, they automatically become more receptive to the full-fledged moosladhaar rainfall of His kirpa. Why? Because they have made a commitment to Him and only to Him. They have made a commitment to His Bana, His Rehit, His Hukam. Its like a father loves all his sons dearly, but the most laadla is the one who is genuinely respectful, obedient and sincere. The other sons are loved as well, but this one is the one who is laadla. At the end of the day, Guru Sahib alone knows who is genuinely serious and who is not. It would be completely wrong to judge anyone. No Amritdhari is supposed to look down upon a non-Amritdhari, and no non-Amritdhari has any right to raise a finger at the Amritdhari lifestyle.

ive noticed on quite a few threads that only five has a very uninspiring manner to quick to jump the gun and to reliant on someone to tell him something instead of using your own logic. I agree in part with luckysingh naam and your own personal connection to god to much on this forum people judge other people. Yes taking amrit is a step towards guru ji but it is not in my opinion the only step or even the first step at the end of the day the amritdhari's on this site including me have an reasonable expectation to inspire and help our brothers and sisters not batter them down for having views which are not exactly like ours

When a person, be they mona, ganjha, with dreadlocks or whatever actually does deep meditation and simran with nothing but pure love for the lord. Then this very person begins to conquer his 5 thieves and slowly his very own ''ego'' starts to shed one by one, bit by bit. Slowly, this person begins to live a more gurmat way of life, which comes automatically and with wahegurus grace. If this mona or lowlife starts to contemplate the teachings in the Granth Sahib ji, he then starts to veer in the direction of an even more gurmat lifestyle with more Sikhi roop expressed in his way of conduct. Now, if you amritdharis are telling me that this is impossible, then I would love to hear your responses backed up with genuine references!!! I mean references to our Guru and not what so and so baba said or what blah blah blah said...

Is this what its come to...that we need to sign a petition to make what is the highest authority in Sikhi uphold Satkaar for Maharaj... Waheguru.

Vhaheguru jee kaa Khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh. Saadh Sangat jee, Sarb Singh of RajoanaTV will be on Sangat TV Channel 847 with a special on the lies of General Brar of the Indian Army. The show will air at 9.30pm. Please be patient and tune in even if it runs a minute or two later (we know our channels aren't too good with their timings). Thanks RajoanaTV

http://sikhchic.com/current_events/a_lament_from_india A Lament From India MANPREET SINGH, Hyderabad I am nothing but a common man who goes to the office at 9 in the morning and comes back in the late evening after completing work in the office. Often, I bring office-work home and keep working and attending calls till late at night. I also work on Saturdays and sometimes on Sundays too. I don’t mind working hard because at the end of the month, the pay cheque brings a smile to my face and helps me feed my family. But, the last few weeks, which include my salary-drawing week, have not brought any smile on my face. In fact, it has left me with a scar which will stay with me throughout my life. I have this bad habit of following important developments very closely. It can be political as well non- political, can be related to sports or stock markets or it can be an article written by an eminent personality who displays some grey matter or a thought-provoking piece written by a social activist. But in these few weeks, what I have been following very closely is the process of maligning the image of Sikhs across the globe by the Indian machinery which includes the Indian Government, the Indian Media, Indian intelligence agencies, the Indian people, or I should be saying, anything which is somewhat related to India and is in line with Brahminical ideology In recent months, Sikhs have got a lot of attention and support across the globe and I firmly believe that the Indian government could not digest the fact that Sikhs are getting strong empathyy and sympathy from the Western world. The Indian machinery seems to be scared that Sikhs are becoming increasingly politically involved in world affairs, participating in the political setup in each of their homelands, trying to create lobbies for themselves, spreading word about Sikhism across the globe and getting positive coverage from the media channels like BBC, CNN, NBC, Huffington Post, Washington Post, etc. All this started on a sad note but it is well documented in the history of Sikhs that Sikhs have the capability of turning around the situations which end up doing good for them. In response to the Wisconsin shooting , for example, it seemed like that whole of US has come together to stand behind the Sikhs. Sikh representatives were invited to the talk shows and were asked to describe what Sikhism is all about. The political brass of US, inter faith organizations, US citizens, US media, government and non-government US agencies came to the rescue. Not to forget P.O. Murphy, the hero of the Sikh-American community whose selfless service will be remembered for decades by Sikhs. We know all these positive things but the other side of the coin is that when this story broke in the Indian media, then Indians were posting comments full of hatred. Some of the comments were: “In Rome, be like the Romans!”, “Till the time Sikhs will not get rid of the funny cloth (turban) on their heads they will be shot like this!” ... and so on. No comments or action came from the Indian political setup, everybody kept mum and were indifferent to this behaviour. Recently, some Indian politicians and bureaucrats have, belatedly, visited Wisconsin. My question to the Sikh community in Wisconsin is: why the hell do you entertain these enemies of our community? Then there was the story of Balpreet Kaur who, with her cherubic smile and benign thoughts and words, not only pacified the person who uploaded her picture and made rude comments, but also drew lot of positive attention from every nook and corner of the world. Please note that here also the Indian media tried to project the miscreant as funny. A few of the Indian media houses also posted online articles related to what Balpreet Kaur should do to get rid of her facial hair and many Indians posted all kinds of stupid and senseless comments on these articles. In the midst of all of this, Daljeet Singh Bittu and Kulbir Singh Barapind -- who are not in agreement with center controlled SAD (B) -- were arrested. God knows what was the reason, Punjab Police didn’t bring arrest and search warrants when they picked up Barapind. Bittu was picked up a couple of days later without any reason or explanation. When a few Human Rights organizations raised this matter and questioned the Punjab Police, the latter could not give convincing answers and showed poorly concocted FIRs which were prepared in a haphazard manner only AFTER the arrest of Barapind and Bittu. Nobody gave any reason why they have been arrested. Their judicial custodies got extended. Barapind was given electric shocks and was treated with 3rd degree torture during his judicial custody. But the actual havoc was yet to be done by the Indian government and media. A flood of negative propaganda against Sikhs has started flowing from the Indian media under the guise of talking about the reported attack on Lt Gen Brar in London, England. Trust me, I don’t like this person but as a Sikh I will never include him in my daily prayers - eitherfor him or against him. Then all, together - the Indian politicians, the Indian media, the Indian public, RAW, the Indian agencies, etc started in concert to create a web trap for innocent Sikhs. RAW didn’t get any information about attacks by terrorists from any bordering nation in all these years but they have special reports now, suddenly, on how the bordering nation’s intelligence agency is clubbing with Sikhs in the West and trying to give new life to the Khalistan movement. Please note it’s the same RAW which till date has not been able to bring even one report which can hold water. It is the same agency which has not been able to nab a single mafia don for years. What I smell over here is a cooked up story wherein Barapaind, Bittu and all Sikhs living across the globe have been trapped. It is really stunning that Barapind and Bittu have been woven into the story of the attack on Brar. Nobody was aware of who attacked Brar but the Indian media was leading the front by mentioning that it was “radical Sikhs”, “separatists Sikhs”. We were given all these labels instantly by the Indian media. Then came more: the Indian media started linking Barapind and Bittu with attacks on Brar. It is worth noting that the British police didn’t know who had attacked Brar but the Indian media knew that it was Sikhs! I guess the Indian media houses are running special intelligence cells ... or were they well ahead of weaving a story to malign Sikhs globally? Another point which came out of nowhere was that the attacker used a knife but according to the Indian media, it was a “kirpan - ceremonial dagger”! The Indian media this time went ahead and mentioned that now Sikhs are using kirpans, this way they created a classic case for the UK government to ban kirpan-wearing and to turn UK and other governments against Sikhs. Another lie which the Indian newspapers mentioned during those hours was that “Khalistani Sikhs” had disrupted the August 15 celebrations in the UK. All of us know that those who disrupted those Indian Independence Day celebrations were local Sikhs residing around the area of the gurdwara. But 'Khalistani Sikhs"? Coming to the reason why those Sikh-Britons disrupted the event: the Indian dignitaries were imbibing liquor inside the hall which was on the property of the gurdwara, and the space had been rented on false pretenses, ostensibly for spiritual purposes. The notice board at the entrance of the hall clearly mentions that liquor is NOT be consumed inside the hall. As far as my knowledge goes, the Sikhs protested peacefully and for only one reason: i.e., against the consumption of liquor inside the hall. Also, the Indians - calling themselves 'sadhus' (mendicants) used foul language while leaving the hall. None of these facts were mentioned anywhere in the news articles printed by the Indian media. Wait, there's more. All of a sudden, RAW has got hold of Sukhwinder Singh “Sukhi”. Who is Sukhi? Sukhi is a corrupted product from the "Punjab Kharkoo" days. He joined the 'Kharkoo' movement but became a Police CAT and helped the Indian agencies to kill the Kharkoos who were fighting for a real cause. Sukhi also participated with the police to malign the image of Sikhs by killing innocent Hindus in Punjab and blaming it on Sikhs! Once the Khaarkoo era was over, Sukhi was given a new identity, “Harjit Singh K ahlon”, by the Punjab Police, a new passport and other documents were also provided. He was relocated to an "unknown place". Meanwhile, the Punjab police declared him dead and closed all the pending cases against his name. There are approximately 300 Police CATs who were helped by the Punjab Police to start a life with new identity. The Indian media didn’t mention anything about Sukhi’s clubbing with Indian agencies during the Kkharkoo days and the killing of innocent Hindus as well as Sikhs. The media is now dishonestly portraying him as a Sikh militant who has been caught in Jaisalmer which is close to the Pakistan border. Not only this, the Indian agencies have started harassing local Sikhs in Jaisalmer who are hardworking and involved in small businesses and jobs. The other day I read an article with a headline: “Massive fund-raising campaign in West by separatist Sikh bodies”. This clearly shows that the Indian government and its agencies are hell bent on maligning the image of Sikhs. They simply can’t digest that Sikhs are being portrayed as progressive, hardworking, honest, law abiding citizens and loyal to their respective countries. Finally, I would like to mention that the scar made by this false propaganda by India and its agencies will remain with me. My elders in the community have gone through so many similar situations; I don’t know how many scars they have and how deep they are. But the moment they are about to heal, India and its corrupt agencies open the wounds again and ensure that they bleed. I urge everybody to come under the “Kesri Nishaan Sahib” and protect yourself and family members from the false propaganda of the Indian media. I would also like to request the youth to come forward and use social media to spread the truth. “sach puraana hovai nahi” ... "Truth never gets old" [GGS:956] October 11, 2012

i missed your posts wls good to have you back

SPP official English song (modren song) More officially approved songs by the SPP:

Hahahaha, I could not stop laughing after watching these videos. Could not save fro Babar/Ahamd Shah Abdali, hun Gidar vi barkan lag payee .

Not just arrested...but arrested and charged. But 'charged' with what Beginner ? Assassination attempt, as Brar claims ? = No Attempted murder, as the Indians claim ? = No A little teensy weensy bit of assault ? = Yes. If every time I get assaulted (pushed) in undergroud stations I claim the person tried to kill me I would not only be a liar I would and should be arrested for wasting valuable police time. If every time someone squared up to me in anger I claimed it was an assassination attempt I would not only be a liar but I would and should be prosecuted for making a mockery of the law. If every time I get a little paper cut on the chin I claim that someone tried to cut my throat I would not only be a liar but I would probably belong in an institution for the mentally ill. ( If the defence lawyer for the 2 is reading this I hope he /she is positively compiling proof of how his / her clients could not hope to receive a fair trial on the assault charge given the negative and blatantly false statements made by not only the Indian media but also institutions such as the BBC, the Police themselves in statements given to the Indian media, and British politicians such as Trade Secretaries and British Ambassadors to India. Let us also remember how the Indian govt sources state publicly that the British official sources (such as the British Police) tell them that they are only going for the assault charge because there's not enough evidence for the murder charge. I truly have full belief that the 2 charged cannot possibly be found guilty given the legal travesties committed.

Hahaha! Of course i did!! I deliberately didnt post in this topic because i knew everyone was gonna start bashing eachother!! Both non-Amritdharis and Amritdharis alike have work to do! SPP Zindabaad!! :khalsa2:

This is the Shabad, Guru Ji brought this shabd to the Sikhs, when asked by Baba Sri Chand who was in Bairaag about Guru Nanak Dev Ji leaving for Sachkhand: Awsw mhlw 1 ] dIvw myrw eyku nwmu duKu ivic pwieAw qylu ] auin cwnix Ehu soiKAw cUkw jm isau mylu ]1] lokw mq ko PkiV pwie ] lK miVAw kir eykTy eyk rqI ly Bwih ]1] rhwau ] ipMfu pqil myrI kysau ikirAw scu nwmu krqwru ] AYQY EQY AwgY pwCY eyhu myrw AwDwru ]2] gMg bnwris isPiq qumwrI nwvY Awqm rwau ] scw nwvxu qW QIAY jW Aihinis lwgY Bwau ]3] iek lokI horu CimCrI bRwhmxu vit ipMfu Kwie ] nwnk ipMfu bKsIs kw kbhUM inKUtis nwih ]4]2]32] Aasaa, First Mehla: The One Name is my lamp; I have put the oil of suffering into it. Its flame has dried up this oil, and I have escaped my meeting with the Messenger of Death. ||1|| O people, do not make fun of me. Thousands of wooden logs, piled up together, need only a tiny flame to burn. ||1||Pause|| The Lord is my festive dish, of rice balls on leafy plates; the True Name of the Creator Lord is my funeral ceremony. Here and hereafter, in the past and in the future, this is my support. ||2|| The Lord's Praise is my River Ganges and my city of Benares; my soul takes its sacred cleansing bath there. That becomes my true cleansing bath, if night and day, I enshrine love for You. ||3|| The rice balls are offered to the gods and the dead ancestors, but it is the Brahmins who eat them! O Nanak, the rice balls of the Lord are a gift which is never exhausted. ||4||2||32||

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!!! :strong:

a few tips i used/use to continuously build up on amrithvela. 1) set yourself a bed time; no matter what your going to aim to be in bed for that time. 2) aim at setting yourself a 20-60minute power nap after amrithvela. itll help you and you wont feel so tired in the long run. 3) when your alarm goes off think to yourself 'i got to get up to talk to vaheguru je now or else ill be trouble (found this works miracles for me especially now as its getting towards winter as it tricks my mind lol) 4) make the aim of your day your amrithvela meaning everything you do that day has your amrithvela for the next day as the aim. in other words youll do everything on a time scale to make sure your in bed by x time and up for x time. as this will slowly become a routine and youll feel better and more easily be able to get up for amrithvela. 5) if your parents wake up early then aim to be in the shower before them; that way you leave yourself no choice but to wake up otherwise youll be 'late' for that very important 'talk with vaheguru jee'. hope those tips help

Also just to add mehtab singh excellent post- There is giving head externally (first step) than there is giving head internally (who only few gives- making effort in bhagti/not indluge in 5 chors- kaam krod, moh, lob, ahankar) to guru maharaj. - Lot of non amritdharis not all (as there are exceptional cases) but lot of non amritdharis look for short cuts in dharam and start try to jump to higher stages without having their basic foundation strong (i.e- taking amrit-admission to school/keeping rehit and slowly moving on to other stages in sikhi). - Lot of amritdharis not all (always exceptional cases) but lot of amritdharis spent most of their precious life living amritdhari as superficially/hypocritically being stuck and wrapping their head around first- shariat layer of sikhi so much so that they forget all higher stages in the sikhi- tariqat, marfat and hakikat. I.E - if one in marfat stage, rituals in shariat should appear seamless and natural to them so much so not even one second or breath is spent pondering over the rituals in shariat layer because focus is actually on the study now.

Bhaji/Bhenji, It might sound like I was being harsh or rude, but it wasn't my intention to come across as such. Please forgive me if you've been hurt by what I said. I do not say that Guru Saheb have accepted me alone, but taking Amrit is indeed the only way for "Guru Dhaaran Karna". I did not mean to simply 'throw comments' towards luckysingh99, but really wish to know what his views about Amrit are! Is it merely a ritual? (In that sense I've mentioned matha tekna). Guru Saheb know what was in my heart whilst typing anything that I did. If have ever intended to hurt anyone (knowingly or unknowingly), I will surely have to pay for it. Guru Saheb Kirpa Karan.

Also listen to sant hari singh ji randhawale from 08:55 where he says in context of baikhari, madhma, pasanti, para bani (meditation stages) be it any naam- raam, khuda, allah, satnaam, vahiguroo etc. So there is no restrictions of mona'e brothers meditating on any naam. Anyway here is the video:

Goodness! It won't let me post the Gurbani tuk. Anyways, the quote was: Rang ratta mera sahib rav rahia bharpur ll My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

Maharaj accepts everyone as maharaj is inside everyone looking at everything as witness (shakshi). Maharaj knows deepest secret of one and showers grace on everybody equally. I don't want to undermine sanskar amrit- khanda batta da amrit/naam amrit but i do have my best friend who is a mona and exceptional case who is extremely discipline been meditating on mool mantar for 8 + years. Maharaj has apar kirpa on him, he could listen to mool mantar dhuni inside (no he is not a radhaswami and no its not pach shabad he is listening its actually MOOL MANTAR FROM GURBANI), he could actually listen to dhun of mool mantar running inside him. He is next ajap jap state. He puts me as amritdhari to shame that here i am preaching/wrapping my head around theological discussion in sikhi but here you have my best friend who have actually applied gurbani in his life and transcedent much more higher spiritually than me.. my ahankar of being amritdhari gets broken in to pieces when we do simran or vichar together...his eyes are always red and in bairaag. Even gyani thakur singh ji patialwale shares an story of his mona on a very high spiritual state. In Sikhi, we have only few exceptional case- sehajdhari and monai (trimmed cut mahapursh) http://santashramlopon.com/bio_details.php?bio_id=3&name=Sant%20Darbara%20Singh%20Ji

I can understand now why non-amritdharis like myself see some amritdharis as full of hunkaar, and think they are above the rest of the world.. How on earth can u ask a question like this after asking other questions u have to lucky99? That sounds like u are saying they have only accepted u. For your information and ur narrowmindedness Maharaj accepts all, if they didnt they I would not be bowing down to them. With that kind of attitude, what do u expect to be seen as? Also how do u know they have accepted u? Because uparo jo amritdhari hona chaida ohi kardi, dikava? te andaro ida di soch? this is the reason i said some think they know it all, maybe its some like u that need to learn few things yourself instead of throwing comments like that. Who the hell are u to judge who they accept to be their Guru? We do not know that, only they know that, they can do mehr on anybody and they love all. We are all god's creations and to say something like that is very belittling to humanity, insaniyat.

Khalsa Ji, you only need one signiture on this petition, and that is of Parkash Badal....... Sorry to sound so negative veer ji but seriously this is the start of the Jummana to come which Giani Takhur Singh Ji has warned us of. I will however be signing the petition and sharing it so others can sign it aswell. WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !!!!

The following links not to preach about this person, but just saw it online and seems to me authentic and want to share it Could you share your views/from your knowledge on this term Hindu, on it's origin of this word? If it is not our word(indian) then why to use it? and how could Sikhs accept this, if these are real meanings?

Go to Srigranth.org and do a search on the following words... "nourishment" "womb" "he saves me" "he has saved me" "he forgives" and read all the Shabads that come up as results.

I will just say that even Guru Nanak Dev Ji had charan pahul amrit. And yes the meditation bit will veer him in the right direction. Ultimately towards amrit.

Please see- picture attached on four types of samadhi. It's from sant isher singh ji rara sahib dairy. Ridhi sidhi is much lover stage than bhramgyan. As far as i understood it, Bhramgyan is one. Bhramgyani depending on the nature can live its life in jevan mukht avastha or bedah mukht avastha. Swami ji life is amazing, you can tell they are bhramleen in sat chit anand saroop of Vahiguroo Ji. It all depends on previous kaamiya of previous lives- some need small spike and they get bhramgyan. Please read the following sakhi of sant aya singh ji hoti mardan giving kirpa to sant jawla singh ji harkhowale

Luckysingh99 ji, All dharam have four layers/stages- Shariat, Tariqat, Marfat and Hakikat . Sikhi structure is no different. At shariat layer of sikhi one takes admission to sikhi by taking amrit, by taking the physical initiation khanda batta da amrit and receiving naam amrit is quite important as it symbolizes that now student/shish/sikh has a guru/teacher in our case our guru is sri guru granth sahib ji and saints/panj pyares are guides just available for help between path of journey between you and your guru. You will find many who will try to take shortcuts and claim all sort of things- i am spiritual not religious, heart and mind should be good nothing else matters etc etc but they don't realize their foundation might not be strong so they fall a part after sometime in their hocus-pocus spirituality. With that being said, there are some exceptional cases (might be your case) whose foundations are already strong from previous lives so they can feel they are going to higher states directly - talking to sri guru granth sahib and do naam simran directly and everything(gurmat character/naturally taking amrit in a bit) falls automatically and spontaneously in place for them. But for the most part, Sikh must take khanda batta da amrit, receive shabad gurmantar and keep basic rehat (admission to school, following basic rules of school and begin study in school of sikhi just like worldly school, school of sikhi also have different grades like for eg- attach mind with Vahiguroo by going through different stages (shariat, tariqat, marfat and hakikat) in spiritual development - graduation, diploma, degree, ma, phd (at the end/aim is to merge with Vahiguroo where we came from originally via meditation). Biggest mistake one could make after taking amrit- spending its precious time in doubts/pondering/debating-winning arguments over policy(rehat details etc) just accept it and move on to different stages i.e - if one in marfat stage, rituals in shariat should appear seamless and natural to them so much so not even one second or breath is spent pondering over the rituals in shariat layer because focus is actually on the study now Have you ever seen high school/university student wrap its head around over policies/rules - NO!!, they accept it and they move on to the "actual study". Now coming back to reality now this is where its g o i n g t o b i t e whole lot of people because t r u t h h u r t s most of amritdharis with their holier than thou attitude will spent most of their precious life living amritdhari as superficially/hypocritically being stuck and wrapping their head around first- shariat layer of sikhi so much so that they forget all higher stages in the sikhi- tariqat, marfat and hakikat. But wait a minute? No need to panic because - Guru maharaj has provided his hand to them to get them out from web of trap in the first-shariat layer of sikhi by giving this vak: All though orginally given to sharia panthi muslim of that time but gurbani is meant for everyone including off course sikhs, its fits perfectably looking at the sad state of affairs among holier than thou amritdharis. Ang- 1083 saraa sareeath lae ka(n)maavahu || Let your practice be to live the spiritual life. thareekath tharak khoj ttolaavahu || Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God. maarafath man maarahu abadhaalaa milahu hakeekath jith fir n maraa ||3|| Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3|

We left from the ''True'' origin. Sachkhand is not a place in the sense that only in this world do we have places and choices to travel there. When one is within the true realms of the truth, then one knows and feels nothing else except the love for that origin. When you are there, leaving or not being there is not even an option in the sense that it does not even occur to be elsewhere as you will know that this place is where you really belong. LOVE and COMFORT of being there is the only Truth that matters. It is where everything that could be lost in you has finally found it's home. Why do we leave there in the 1st place, when all our soul and atma want is to be back there ? Well, we only actually become a physical entity and don't leave in effect. Taking birth and being in this world is the beginning of the ''Duality'' that continues to conquer and overide our very physical existence here. If we can detach and get more inwards into our deep selves, only then can we really find our true selves and the Lord within us. Remember God is formless. He is not a he or a she, neither is he big or small. His presence can only be seen and felt once you are back there in sachkhand. He doesn't have the characteristics like humans, he doesn't have blood pumping him, however he is a hige source of the infinite energy that maintains the whole universe.

The Brahm Giani is the Lord and Master of all. The Brahm Giani is the Creator of the entire world. The Brahm Giani extends his hand to all. The Brahm Giani owns the entire creation. The Brahm Giani is himself the Formless Lord. Read it properly and understand, its enough proof for me to understand. When you are in pain or become ill then the doctor helps you, you are gods creation and so is the doctor. It does not matter whether you are rich or poor the doc will give you the same treatment for the same illness. Then u get better, so why would not Waheguru, the creator the lord love us the same. As karm are concerned they are due to our actions past and present, and Waheguru can change them in an instant, but if somebody murders someone then obviously they will get sentenced by the courts. If the murder was in self defence or reasons beyond their control then it would be classed as manslaughter or the courts would decide to reduce sentence it for other reasons, but still would have to do some time as punishment. Our daily lives should be enough proof that Waheguru loves all when we get help from people we dont know. When we get compliments, when somebody says hello, when somebody opens a door for us. When somebody takes time out to explain something to us. That should be sufficient proof, and we should thank the lord, Waheguru everytime we are loved and helped by whatever means, that is actually god helping us.

It shows your inferiority complex that you feel all Britishers were bad. Whether you like it or not, he speaks the truth, I'd argue that painting him under one flag of being a "mere firangi" and discrediting him is close minded not at all scholarly- a very anti-Sikh anti-Khalsa characteristic. You're British and if I used your same thoughts, I'd say the same about you, heck you'd say the same thing about yourself lol. He probably knew more about the Gurmukhi language and was exposed to actual Sikhi more than you and I were (irony?). His only drawback was he had a limited scope due to the fact he was a Britisher and he didn't commit to becoming a full Sikh (due to his own hesitations and being shunned by his own British people it made him double minded) although he did read Jap Ji Sahib on his deathbed so he was a Sikh at heart. Pick up a history book and see what "hindu dharma" was called prior to Muslim invaders. It's was brahmanism or brahman. It turned into "hinduism" or whatever the term was called after they started to focus on a few gods out of the thousands they worshiped prior. Hindu was a recent word. It's was brahmanism or brahman as it is mentioned in their books - the ultimate goal is to become a brahman over many lives so they made their system of power over india based on this (similar to the Jews and how Jesus spoke out against the corrupt priests). It turned into "hinduism" or whatever the term was called after they started to focus on a few gods out of the thousands they worshiped prior. Yes, it was also called sanatan dharma, which is why Sant Singh Ji Maskeen refers to confused people who fall for the trap of being engulfed in brahman ritualism, worshipping of devi/devte and other non-Sikh acts as being people of "sanatan mat". Sanatan strictly in this case means hindu mat brahman mat or what we're discussing right now. NOT TIMELESS. Sanatan may or may not also mean timeless, but in this case that we're discussing it means hindu dharma. The edit button really needs to be fixed lol.

I hope he does. I like him, although I'm also a bit scared of him. :biggrin2:

Is this janam of yours not proof enough that Waheguru loves you??

Normal Human being like us have three avasthas/states. Nirvakalap Smadh is enlighten state/thoughtless "Awareness" state and also called maha smadhi state where there is no coming back: To explain it better, here are three states: 1. Jagrath Avasthas- This state is awakened state. 2. Suapoun Avastha- This state is dream state 3. Sukhopat Avastha- This state is deep sleep state, where there is no suffering or any pain, no knowledge just thoughtless deep sleep state- mind stays in the root. Hence, why after being awakened from deep sleep state, one says- i had very good sleep- deep sleep. Enlightened state without any suffering or pain is kind of like - thoughtless deep sleep state. However, major difference in enlighten state that is thoughtless "awareness" state, and there is no risk of falling to normal state. Enlighten being always stays in - thoughtless awareness state in deep meditation. Although enlighten being while alive- have dual consciousness - one for worldy activity and other- thoughtless meditation. He/she is not attached with worldly activity, he is nirlaip(free) from illusion. His/her consciousness is advait(non dual). He/she consider everyone as god- sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai. He expereince universal love fully advait(non duality- god is everywhere, god is in everyone including me) including this illusion world as supreme soul/god itself have created this play or matrix and people who realize its illusion or break the matrix able to see- world is just an thought just like wave(thought) coming out from the ocean for sometime it appears different or comes out but then it merges back in the ocean. World which it appears is just an wave in the ocean current, real essence of world is ocean as no matter how big wave is, it merges back in the ocean. This is must listen. Please listen to audio by sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale regarding characteristics of Jevan Mukht and Bedah Mukht. Basically people who cannot understand punjabi...i will try to explain as much my buddhi can: http://www.gurmatvee....Hai.mp3 (From 80.55 minutes until end) Jevan Mukht- A person who is jevan mukht stays in sehaj avastha, have double consciousnesses, can engage in worldly duties because their sattvic mind(satoguni mind) is still there to do parchar/spread love/kindness to this world, rajo and tamogun portion of mind its destroyed. Bedah Mukht- A person who is bedah mukht can only survive days, they are in nirvkalap samadhi(non transcendental meditative state), they have totally negate their mind (made of rajo, tamo, sato), antish karan, there is no coming back, they cannot do kriya on their own, their disciples try to feed them just to keep them alive to see them in smadhi. Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawale said in divan, he came across with such one person of bedah mukht avastha who was at bedah muhkht avastha at haridvar, there were lines of people who were awaiting to do their darshan. People who don't believe in great sakhiya baba deep singh ji cutting their head and fighting or bhai mani singh shaheedi should research more on bedah mukht avastha before getting stuck in web of sansas(doubts).

your right they should be telling us what to do but it appears that we have to tell them what they should be doing. In the west they call it people power lets put sangat power pressure onto them to do something. We have to start somewhere. we have a few thousand signatures on paper but i was hoping for a better response from the online sangat. Can i ask anyone who has a BLog website twitter account Facebook please please benti add the links to your sites. We have till end of Oct to get as many as we can. Sangat from all parts of the world will then take the petitions to the jathedars.

I find it shocking that this is what we have to do ..... Shouldn't the Jathedars be telling us what to do????? Not the other way around. Great Jathedars of the past would never allow the things we see happening today in Punjab.

How about this interpretation: Hukam is the set of rules that God set in which the universe runs. Which also says if u do bad karam u suffer/pay for it, and good deeds u get rewarded. Because of ur past life, some things will already by preordained: parents, siblings, wealth, etc. But u still have free will to do choose other things. So the more lives u live, the more karma u collect. It can become an unending cycle: to erase karm, u get a life as a poor person, then u create more karam in that life, which must be paid off in another life, then those choice u made created more karma.... Even thoughts can create karma, that's why it's imprtant to understand and live by the concept of hukam/bhana.

This is very good and complex topic. I will try to share based on my understanding. While concept of karma just like reincarnation in Sikhism have shared indic roots with eastern dharams. With that being said- In traditional gurmat, emphasis is put on how one perceives karam spiritually. It's via free will, order and with grace of satguru/vahiguroo ji, one realize all karams are limited to body and our subtle body- sub consciousness mind not real self and our real self- atma which is above from all karams and individualistic mind. We don't believe in - oh my god oh my god its my karam, so i m doomed and i m doomed..oh my god..oh my god. Life for a sikh is much more engaging, accepting things as order/hakum and changing the perception of mind rising above from body/individualstic mind towards Vahiguroo which is universal supreme consciousness, so naturally all karam effects be it good or bad only gets limited to body/individualistic mind.. both individualistic mind and body it's illusory for enlighten being not his/her as he/she has merged with Vahiguroo...!! When one rise above from all karams by merging with vahiguroo, all the karams are destroyed. They are not destroyed in the literal sense but mind rises above from it, the perception changes as if it does not exist in mind .!!! However, karma take its natural course on individual body...but enlightened mind is not effected as its merged with vahiguroo/ real self (atma-paratma). Classic example- Surely bhai taru singh ji, bhai mani singh ji when they got chopped pieces by pieces it was pre-odained but what was their state of mind like? They accepted it as bhana/hakum, they accepted that because of actions done by individualstic mind/body in past lives, that they were being tortured to death. However, were their mind even iota effected by it? No..by accepting hakum and rising above from all karams and merging with vahiguroo, where everything act or play in this world- torture, life and death is perceived as illusory. They were not even iota effected by it. Everything is in the perception. In that state, they were bedah (seperated from deh) liberated soul. I am not sure if i answered your question or made it more confusing. But i hope it helps.!!