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What are we even doing there in the first place? Just like many apne hate bhaiyas, many goreh hate apne.

Wow, that was profound.

Adhere to Gurmit, but at the same time, keep tougher exterior. If you give the impression that you’re soft, you’ll get shafted!!!

I was asked this question in regards to 1984 & Bhindrawale by someone. "The main reason behind Dharam Yudh Morcha was Anandpur Resolution(1973). 1) What did Bhindrawale managed to achieve before 84 or what was achieved for the Panth after 84 carnage/genocides(Darbar Sahib/Delhi etc.) ? 2) What were the positive outcomes? " (negatives: attack on Darbar Sahib, genocide of Sikhs, Sikh discrimination before 1984 turned to outright oppression after 84) Can someone knowledgeable provide factual inputs? Thanks

att aghirtghana for shahadat of Guru Teg Bahadur and all the efforts of countless gursikhs to free the nation, feed the nation (this denial of water has extreme karmic effect on top of the namak har4mi). The four times hinduvta attacked the heart of sikh polity out burdened them more than the one of the mallech they keep spouting fairytales of hindu valour about

Some of the benefits are that Amritsar was given the holy city status and a radio installed at darbar sahib. It also increased the sikh diaspora, taking sikhi worldwide. I think the delhi pograms did more to wake up sikhs tho. Before the govt staged riots, sikhs were against being armed and against Sant ji. But Nov 84 really woke up sikhs, esp urban sikhs

This, and woke up a sleeping nation. As for OP, idk what sort of "facts" you're looking for. Suspicious thread imo.

It gave Sikhs a stronger identity. A open challenge to Nirankaris in 1978 was the turning point.

This does not surprise me considering it is coming from a Brahmin practicing the Hindu faith. Almost all ancient faiths (including the Abrahamic faiths and Hindusim) treat women as subordinate slaves, sexual objects, and the source of misery/destruction for mankind. It's only Sikhi that truly gave equal respect to women, and it saddens me to see some Sikh women that misuse the freedom/equality they have been blessed to be born in to by throwing themselves and their progeny back into denigration by marrying out with some Christian or Muslim or Hindu.

like this : A house having a venomous snake is not suitable for living. In the same manner, a house having an ill-tempered wife with low morals, deceitful friends, or with an impolite talkative servant is also not suitable for living. A good wife is pious, expert at household chores, faithful and never speaks a lie to her husband. However if she is judged to have a temper: A man must leave a religion without love and compassion, must leave a teacher without knowledge. Also its better to leave a short tempered wife and relatives with no love and respect for you. makes me laugh because by that standard everyone should leave Brahminism women come in only two forms wife or prostitute for him and the wife is almost nothing : You can earn money after losing it, you can make new friends, and also you can get another wife, but this is not the case with the body. [take good care of your health] That explains the attitude we have heard of in past times of hindus to their womenfolk being kidnapped. He blames Sita's beauty for her kidnapping not Rama's trickery or Ravan's ego The three views of three beings for a very beautiful woman. She will be equivalent to a corpse for some Yogi, a lustful man will consider her as an object of desire, and for a dog she will be nothing more than a big lump of meat. [… contains very deep meaning. Discretion advised] for a holy man he seems very knowledgeable about prostitutes: It is the characteristic of a <banned word filter activated> that she talks with one man, stares at another with a third person in her mind. If is not the mistake of that <banned word filter activated>, but is of the man who thinks that she will love him. A foolish man easily falls in love with a <banned word filter activated> and then becomes her toy. She will use him, betray him, trick him, and finally destroy him. and his ideas about maya are fairly strange , on one hand speaking of non-entanglement and then advising to be shameless in acquiring it , again he does his best to stereotype women to illustrate his points: Money comparable to the bride of an orthodox family is not of much use. It must be like a prostitute available to anyone in need. (planned investment is better than savings)

I thought that , because I remember Sant ji pointed out the reason to read chanakiya raajniti to understand the mentality of brahminvad

It means what it means people. You have to understand that the use of the word "crooked" does not indicate humility, it means using crooked or immoral means to achieve what a ruler desires, and he does go on to say that a ruler must desire justness only and maintain justness at any cost. If Chanakya had indicated humility, he would have instead used a word like "bowed". And let's not be surprised that he suggests this because he wasn't an enlightened man on any level, he was just cunning.

it could also mean being open and strightforward is a mistake being secretive and tricksy is better in negotiations remember he is the guys who posited sham dam bhed . Brahmin are like hobbiteses .....tricksy

Metaphor may mean do not have ego but have nimarta. How does a person with nimarta walk? Bowed down, like a crooked tree. And person with ego? Straight (full of arrogance). Chanakya was advisor to Chandergupt Maurya and his son or great grandson who too was a wise king.

Ahmadiyya are not even considered Muslims among Sunni and Shia. Even in Pakistan, thy are banned from calling themselves as Muslims. Primarily, due to Ahmadiyyah's heretical belief that Muhhammad wasn't the last seal of Prophets & Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) was the Mahdi. No muslim country in the world accepts this denomination to begin with.

there is a quote from the mughal chroniclers pointing out exactly that , whether birth, marriage, joyous occasion, illness, or death are all the same to Gursikh - shukrana di ardas, hukamnama and karah...

Yes we should be saying do more sakhi sharing , more post Guru Gobind SIngh ji itihaas of the Khalsa - because a lot of people do not know the circumstances of Guru Pita ji's Akhri hukham and the manner in which he passed after telling his Gursikh to NOT cry . It is this exact lack of history knowledge that nakli gurus take advantadge of . People do not know the sakhi of the prem Guru Pita ji had for his Khalsa above blood relations People do not know the night before at Chamkaur Sahib how Guru ji tended to his children whilst they slept...how much love he showed People do not Know about Bibi Harsharan Kaur at age sixteen going onto Battlefield and doing antim sanskar of vadde sahibzahidey and Singh who were shaheed and also fighting and giving shaheedi herself after this sewa. people don't recognise the little people who sacrificed everything just to do sewa of chotte sahibzahide and Mata Gujri ji People think of Mata Gujri as a frail typical punjabi Granny , but history shows how strong she was mentally, spiritually and physically to look after sangat for years as they came to see her Mother in Law in Pind , whilst Guru Teg Bahadur ji was doing his bhagti . Dealt with the death of her husband and remained aware and available for sangat and her Son . we need to highlight the unflinching strength and true nature of Chardi Kala based on the knowledge of why we should be free from attachments to outcomes as instructed in Gurbani. POH should be an Inspirational month to give a boost to chardikala to truly feel how much our GurPita ji and older brothers love us all. An anchor to our roots ....

If you read Gurbani carefully, gurmat wants us to rise above dukh sukh of in all phases life. (practically only intense naam abhiyaas is what can make us numb to the ups and downs of life). If you have done sangat of soojvaan gursikhs. You will realize the shabads sung in keertan to SatGuroo are usually always related to the occasion. In sadness, praising vahiguroo and accepting his bhana and in happiness thanking him etc.

wow Honestly? what happened to the brotherhood and sisterhood the small differences in maryada between the two mentioned jatha NEVER stopped the mutual respect and brotherhood between our mahapurakhs should we not take their example ? Panth is built with love and understanding not nitpicking and hatred ... Leave it to the mudslingers who we recognise as deluded and not serving the panth's betterment to be stupid and mouth off let's not join them please Otherwise they win at their game...

Regarding your accusation on me as a 'missionary'. I am actually pro- Dasam Bani & consider missionaries as nindaks of Satguroo. Missionaries being nindaks of Naam & Gurbani have been cursed in various places in gurbani. Why hate people who whom SatGuroo himself has cursed due to their deeds? If anything, you just demonstrated how hate fueled viciously slanderous modern day taksalis are. Nor do you see any shame of accusing other Sikhs of heresy without evidence. When you release hate out to the world, you are unlikely receive any love from others either. Then Taksalis like you wonder in threads like this. "Why people dont like us?" Seriously

1.The question center of the discussion of this thread was the authenticity of the bir here in question.It was alleged to be from Guru Sahib's time. Presence of Kachi Bani proves it cannot be based on the content of the saroop itself. 2. You seem to make excuses that "its ok" to have kachi bani in saroop of SGGS or dropped into the middle of Gurbani since you view it as you call it "exegetical ". My honest opinion on this opinion, you need to re-examined your faith when it comes to Gurbani itself. If you have any confusion, then 24th pauree of Anand Sahib makes it clear: ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥ in the 3rd line, Guru Sahib tell us those who recite or listen kachi bani are ਕਚੇ . What to talk about those who advocate the acceptance of exegetical into Gurbani/SGGS itself? 4. Your whole post is devoid of any factual evidence in light of gurmat or crystallized evidence. Ones sikhi shouldnt be based on ones blind allegiance to ones group/leanings. Other than that, there isnt much credible substance to much of what you have said nor anything conclusive. Mostly periphery talk, am sorry to say. 5. If you are of opinion that there are no puratan saroops without Raagmala exist, I suggest you pick up the book called Mundhavani by Gyani Gurdit Singh and see the pictorial evidences he has documented.

Such exegetical saroops have always existed within the Panth. The B40 manuscript is one such example where Bhagat Bani has been demarcated from the Bani of the Gurus, Bhatts and Gursikhs to explain the history behind it. Baba Ji's Saroop is also one such Saroop. We cannot accept it as Gurbani, Per se, as it is exegetical but this should not be made into a reason to cast doubt over it. The presence of Sri Raagmala is enough to indicate that Purataan Sikhs actually accepted this Bani unlike the AKJ of today. I am posting a picture of a similar saroop as well; this one is a combined recension of both the Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Where the Raagmala concludes, the Sri Jaap Sahib commences. The need for such saroops, in the past, is quite self evident if one was to pursue Sikh history from unbiased sources i.e. devoid of the ramblings of white-clad "Babas." 'Now we have printing presses which produce Birs in hours, but historically Birs used to be prepared by hands. It would take years for such manuscripts to be made and only those Singhs acquired them who could prove that their regions were safe and sound. The last thing any Sikh would tolerate, then, was mistreatment of Maharaj. They had a spirit which is lacking in today's Khalsa.Now with not many Birs available, Baba Binod Singh Ji (1st Jathedar of Sri Budha-Dal) formed a new stratagem. Acting as the pontificate Jathedar of Sri Panth Khalsa he announced that for those Singhs who possessed the Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they could be venerated in the same way as the Ad Guru because they too were Gurbani. Secondly, if none of these three Granths were available then 5 Shastars, as stipulated by Guru Sahibaan, could be placed upon a thara or manji and paid obeisance to. Is this idolatry? No because Shastars, combined with Gurbani, instruct us in the conduct of a Siphai. The Khalsa is both Sant and Siphai. This has been since Sat-Yug and will be until the end of time. Just as the Khalsa pays obeisance to the Guru's Shastars at Nanded, so too did the Singhs when Sirhind finally fell to them in 1763 A.D. They constructed a Thara and atop it placed Shastars and in this way honored the younger Sahibzades and their martial spirit. The fact that Punjab was undergoing rapid military and political changes did not give them time to acquire a Bir. Due to one reason or another this situation lasted until the 1800s. Every time the Poojari Singhs requested a Bir from their patrons, they would be put on hold until they finally relinquished all hope of acquiring one. In 1844 A.D. the Maharajah of Patiala, Karam Singh, begin the construction of this present Gurudwara of Sri Fatehgarh Sahib. But it would be Narinder Singh, his son, who would finish the project. In agreement with the Nihungs and other sampradas it was decided that a Bir would be acquired once the Punjab had settled down under the British. But one thing led to another and no Bir graced the Gurughar. Finally the twenties arrived and with them the rumblings of dissent. Those who were present told me, in my youth, that members of the Akali Party soon arrived at the shrine and begin harassing the Singhs. "This is idolatry!" they proclaimed upon seeing the Shastars arranged in all their glory. Events took an ugly turn and soon the senior Singhs on both sides sat down to talk. 'Brothers,' began our Singhs, 'please just listen to us.' At this a few of the Akalis begin lobbying cries of 'Hindu,' 'Brahamane,' (of the loins of a Brahmin) at them but silence soon prevailed. 'This arrangement is a facsimile of Nanded,' our Singhs informed them. 'We desire a Bir but please provide us with one. We emulate Nanded in our conduct and will do so here. On one hand we will honor Shabad and on the other Shastars.' But the Akalis wanted none of this. They went to Bhupinder Singh, and through the agencies of Lt. Gen Gurdial Singh and Col. Raghbir Singh they took control of the Gurughar. The beloved Shastars, of our ancestors, were thrown out acrimoniously and our Singhs beaten and ejected for being in tow with the "Mahants." The Akalis rejoiced at having "liberated" the shrine. I ask you. What sort of a liberation was that? You bring the Guru here after breaking his sacred Rahit? That Rahit which was given to us at the Sri Akal-Takhat and Anandpur! Fie to such individuals who consider themselves as "Khalas" (pure) after committing such atrocious blasphemies! And afterwards this same SGPC would commission a book reiterating their canards. Read it and see.' - Interview with Doctor Swarup Singh Ji.

Veer jeo, I had a chance to read through the page you posted. Below is my observation: While this saroop is puratan, without a doubt.The question is, is it from Satguru's time? Sorry to burst your bubble on this. As marked above before Raagmala comes Kachi Bani Ratanmala(marked in black) & Hakikat Rah Mukaam Raje Shiv Nabh Ki(marked in red). If as per your claim this saroop was prepared by or during SatGuru Gobind Singh Jee's time. Why would Satguroo include kachi bani? Conclusion: Claims attached to this saroop are not authentic

I think the thread maker is the biggest trickster of all by tricking us with his numerous usernames identities. :biggrin2:

Like it was said in the earlier post, it is quite easy to differentiate between Sikh and non-Sikh brown people. The body language, the features, the speech etc. Females are far more clued on to covert messages,body language, nuances etc than males are, so I am cannot quite believe that they are conned into believing a muslim with a kara on is a Sikh. Their guile and cunning is very much switched onto other things but not to something more obvious. Of course these types of girls never take any accountability of their actions, instead they try to divert the attention to the maybe <5% (I think that is even a stretch in a lot of cases) of males of Sikh origin that go around with non-Sikh females. They justify and rationalise their behaviour by pointing out someone else's behaviour. I find it quite strange that a lot of our females claim to be equal to males and then use their feminine vulnerability when it suits them. If you want to be equal, take equality into accountability for your actions as well as equality into your rights. You cannot have one without the other. If a male has to be "man up", females need to "woman up"

punjabis, they dislike gurmat & dont want to raise daughters to have gurmat asools , to have a firm character and honor, and avoid senseless free mixing with men that lead to flirtations when Pakistani boys pick their characterless daughters, they blame everything and everyone but themselves #Stupid

Its not just the girls fault we got to look as ourselves as Sikhs and a community. Maybe a girl is venerable and that's why she gets groomed, but you got to look at to why she is venerable to in just a state that she is easily groomed. Its partly the girls issue that she is ignorant and may be doesn't care about Sikhi etc and wants the 'bollywood love story' that society has programmed into us. Its partly parents issue of not teaching children at a young age the values of Sikhi and the dangers of certain communities. Boys have to look at themselves as well. To get to the point you see apnay drinking hot headed etc drunk fooling around themselves, also gambling now running up debts, drugs. I might have portrayed the worse kinds but girls wouldn't want to end up with half the guys that are out there so when some 'prince charming' comes along with all the right words then she falls for it. Sikhs have an issue where we are very reactive and act when its too late. We seem to ignore things until it blows up in our face and then decide to do something when its too late. We stop interfaith marriages at Gurdwaras yes its good that we are doing something, but we should prevent this from happening from the start. Its all about being pro active. SAS are doing a great job with this but we all as a society have to do more. Pul Chuk Maff

1.I didnt get your point in being snobish, phen jeo. Where I was coming from was give practical advice based on Gurbani & life experience. Gurbani is evidence. Its SatGuroo's voice to a Sikh. 2. I have seen good singhs who have careers and love Guru Sahib much. That they do not eat any food daily wihout doing darshan of SatGuroo Jee daily. I have seen these very same singhs, being tired and falling asleep during their 2 hour naam abhiyaas at amrit wela. Meaning surtee slacking from Naam. Can they be blamed? because their work lifestyle is taking a toll on them? Perhaps you have more keerpa. Do ardass for the likes of us then. Cause we are in need of it. For Naam to keep churning 24/7 one needs a proper amritwela(not affected by tiredness). Saying that "one can train their mind", is houmei.

When NEO cant provide straight answers on his deviant views, then he uses trickery of distraction to "other issues". You were the one advocating an Amrit Dhari marrying a 'sehajdhari'. You were asked to prove its permissibility as per Gurmat, but you couldn't. Period.

I went through the saroop. Its always fills the heart with happiness to see a puratan hand written saroop. Having said that, this saroop cannot be from 1714, perhaps written very very much later . The reasons: Because in the end some Gurbani(Salok Mehalla 3,Salok Mehalla 5, Salok Mehalla 9, Mundhavani) is missing. Even Salook Vara Te Va'deek Mehalla 1 is is partially written in the beginning. =/ and there is also loads of Kachi Bani(Ramkali RatanMala, Jitt Dar Lakh Muhamamdan, Hakikat Rah Mukaam Raje Shiv Nabh Ki) followed by Ragmala in the end.

WELL SAID !

Yes, maybe this could be the case. Being fro the bhat community, I think we are alot more strict with girls because most Bhats hail from areas like Amritsar. everyone knows never to mess with a Amritsari Sikhs. I think there are two main reasons for this happening. Sikhs from the Jat community let their women study in other cities far away and give them the freedom to go to night clubs, pubs ect they also give them the freedom to date maybe not the freedom but they kind of begrudgingly accept that this is what their kids are going to do and its become the norm. ie they have no control over it. Naturally being in this environment in clubs ect is going to open them up sexual predators. what you have is basically a slippery domino affect where bad acts is going to lead to more bad acts ect. ie drink spiking, date rape, blackmail, drinking ect.. just as if you did good it will lead onto other goodness. doing bad will lead onto other bad things. In a nutshell dont get into these situations in the first place. Another reason is the Jat family usually only contains 2 kids. ie one girl and one boy. in these families where there is no older brother or no brother at all. its like a recipe for disaster. I know most Bhats have like 5 kids minimum. ie we are known for having big families. hence this leaves brothers to protect and watch over the girls. unfortunately when their is no older brother this is also a major factor. as girls will usually listen to their brother then the parents. I think the other reason is Muslims have access to drugs ie these people smoke weed and deal drugs like no tomorrow hence they use this as a weapon to lure girls and drug them. personaly I don't think Bhangra is to blame. Bhangra is good for our culture aslong as it is respectful and not about alcohol ect.

You are spot on on this one.

majority of these girls are from Bhangra loving, chicken& mutton loving, alchohol drinking, money worshipping modernist Punjabi families who failed to give their daughters gurmat and Sanskars(values) . When it ends up on forums, "Sikh" girls being groomed... Punjabis have totally failed at implanting love for Sikhi in their children....