Why Do People Want Khalistan?

[2desi]

I believe the Indian Army could have shut down the entire city of Amritsar, surrounded Darbar Sahib (don't let anyone enter or exit without permission, which is bad but not as bad as attacking), then just waited to force negations with Sant Jarnail Singh, other Sikh Leaders, and Jathedars in front of the Akal Takht in public view. They could have done this, the Sikhs made it clear they would only fight in self defence.

But the Government didn't want to negotiate because that meant giving in to the demands of the Sikhs, which wouldn't have gone well with the rest of India because the demands (particularly the Anandpur Resolution 1973) were labelled as secessionist by the Government and Media, therefore the Congress Party would surely of lost in the next election.

The demand for more autonomy for Punjab was labelled as Anti-Indian because it went against the Secular Order put in place by Nehru. Nehru was against having any state based on religion (Punjab), therefore the simple establishment of Punjab in 1966 was seen as 'Sikh State' and against the ideology of Nehru. In reality, a Sikh cannot be a supporter of 'Secularism' because in Sikhism religion and politics are inseparable. This just added more ‘evidence’ for the media that the Sikhs were secessionist.

It is also clear that demands of the Sikhs would never of been met, the Government's (Congress) intention was to start this conflict with the Sikhs for its own short term (5 to 10 years) gain in which it would been seen as a 'hero' trying to save 'Mother India' from the 'Sikh Gadars'. That’s why 30 plus Gurdwara's were attacked along with Darbar Sahib.

The Government thought that attacking Darbar Sahib would scare the entire Sikh Quam into regression, that by eliminating Sant Jarnail Singh, the Sikhs would fall silent. It thought that the Sikhs would 'forgive and forget' Operation Blue Star. But it was wrong.

[S1ngh]

The fact that Sri Darbar Sahib was attacked is entirely the fault of the Indian government, not the Sikhs and Sant Bhindranwale, we should be asking the indian government that question, not our fellow sikhs who died to uphold the honor of the sikh nation.

Sikhs fought a defensive battle, completely defensive, yet you question them when it comes to non-combatants?? They were probably asking the indian government the same thing!

THANK YOU !!!

[skepticSikh]

You guys need to separate two things...

1. Most of us do agree that bluestar was a political move, and that the crimes committed until now are truly quite horrendous. Several human rights organizations have evidence of the brutality. There is no question about this, so stop arguing and cursing everyone out.

2. The question to debate is Khalistan. Why do we want Khalistan? That is the question. In fact, that is the purpose of this thread.

Emotions don't solve anything. Be constructive.

I agree with the topic starter in that no good can come out of the Khalistan movement. As an example, look at Afghanistan. While the extremists enjoy power, the common people, expecting a religious renewal, in fact get a totalitarian government that subjugates them worse than animals. Religious extremism does that to people.

There ARE more constructive approaches. Have you thought about campaigning to get more state autonomy? Or the idea that if a freer press is set up, it can check corruption to some degree, and thereby actually SOLVE some of the problems in Punjab? Or to join legitimate politics, no matter the cost, no matter the mudslinging, to truly help bring about change? Or are you planning to ship out tommorrow, grab some c-4 and a rented car, and start car-bombing random people?

Statecraft is complex. So learn some policy debate, read up on political science, and make a difference. I'm not saying you're not capable of it. In fact, I underestimate you if I say that you CAN make a difference. That is the only way you can take "badla", by not taking revenge at all....

wjkk wjkf

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Well like I stated before, we can never know because we can only work with facts, and yes it’s a fact that other Gurukars were also attacked and no, there was no Bindrawala sitting in those, no body disputes the genocide drunk officials and army. But out of all the options available the worst one was chosen. The Army needed an excuse and they were given it on a plate. Emotions aside it is in my opinion and many others, it was a game of chicken “who would back down first” Nobody thought the Army would attack how wrong they all were.

People can elevate personalities to what ever level they like and enjoy sants, jethedars, shaheeds, to question the actions of such people is not blasphemy, heresy, pro-government, pro-genocide etc but a given right that we can and all should exercise. Only Guru Ji is infallible everyone else falls short.

Our forgotten people still rot in prisons most innocent of any crimes, at the ground level everything gets swept under the carpet and at the high end people in the cul-de-sacs in the west ask for Khalistan most cant handle the heat or drink the water of Punjab let alone run a state or vote for it, in it. Realistically Khalistan is a dream of a minority, now that may upset people here but in the Punjab it’s a reality of opinion.

India is running away with its economic boom and Punjab is being left behind industrial and agricultural output is at its lowest level the only thing Punjabis are doing more than ever is consuming just like the west. One of the reason big corporations don’t invest in Punjab is because it is considered a volatile state, where do you think these corporations get their stats and information from?

In my opinion if you want to make a difference towards the dream you have to contribute towards it, Live there, eat there, educate your kids there, invest there time, money, your future and those of your children, realistically how many actually could or have done so? Maybe we have become to used to our recliners in London, Midlands but I do hear they still have good old Manjae’ in Kaliphornia! :nihungsmile:

[chatanga]

Your answer to my question is !?

“bombs would still have landed on the parikrama anyway”

Er…ok!

I don’t think you have understood the question, the query or maybe I wasn’t clear.

However for the second incident you are stating in regards to Paonta Sahib can you please,

Open another thread and not try to deviate this one, The Budha Dal support thing very clever but totally transparent. State all the facts, not just the ones you have chosen to. Can you please state the incidents and History that built up to the said Incident, what happened during it? what happened after it? what was the future implications for the wider community, that are still being felt today?

Also as your synopsis unravels can you please show parallels clear and genuine ones between the two incidents, that will be very interesting.

I look forward to your reply, because I know you think you know your history.

DW :nihungsmile:

the facts are there in my above post. stop shirking on the issue and give us a clear answer. Why didnt the Nihangs come out of the gurdwara and fight the battle?

What were the future implication for the community?

it meant that other sikhs could use the example set by the beloved army of the Guru and fight from inside gurdwaras.

the parallels are there . sikhs inside, ravan sena outside. you say Bhindranwale should have fought away from gurdwara, yet your ideal sikhs did exactly the same thing you criticise Bhindranwale for. why are you a hypocrite? khalsa arent hypocrite are they?

why would the events at paonta not be felt today? are you telling me that the leader of 96 million strong army did not have any feelings or still have any for what hapend at Paonta?

two sides of the same coin dw. you tryna make it into 2 coins.

i look forward to your reply cos you know that i know that you know your history.

[kullykhalsa]

well said, there are definite parallels between paonto and harminder sahibs, and you cannot in my opinion accept 1 and then nt the other!

bhul chuk maf :wub:

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Your answer to my question is !?

“bombs would still have landed on the parikrama anyway”

Er…ok!

I don’t think you have understood the question, the query or maybe I wasn’t clear.

However for the second incident you are stating in regards to Paonta Sahib can you please,

Open another thread and not try to deviate this one, The Budha Dal support thing very clever but totally transparent. State all the facts, not just the ones you have chosen to. Can you please state the incidents and History that built up to the said Incident, what happened during it? what happened after it? what was the future implications for the wider community, that are still being felt today?

Also as your synopsis unravels can you please show parallels clear and genuine ones between the two incidents, that will be very interesting.

I look forward to your reply, because I know you think you know your history.

DW :nihungsmile:

the facts are there in my above post. stop shirking on the issue and give us a clear answer. Why didnt the Nihangs come out of the gurdwara and fight the battle?

What were the future implication for the community?

it meant that other sikhs could use the example set by the beloved army of the Guru and fight from inside gurdwaras.

the parallels are there . sikhs inside, ravan sena outside. you say Bhindranwale should have fought away from gurdwara, yet your ideal sikhs did exactly the same thing you criticise Bhindranwale for. why are you a hypocrite? khalsa arent hypocrite are they?

why would the events at paonta not be felt today? are you telling me that the leader of 96 million strong army did not have any feelings or still have any for what hapend at Paonta?

two sides of the same coin dw. you tryna make it into 2 coins.

i look forward to your reply cos you know that i know that you know your history.

Chatanga,

don’t pretend to know what your talking about,

Let me help you with your research, below an extract of the said incident

22nd May 1964

11 Sikhs were gunned down at Paonta Sahib (Himachal Pradesh) by the Mahant's henchmen.

The sangat of Poanta Sahib had requested head of Tarna Dal to visit the Gurdwara. They complained that the residing masand was abusing the Gurdwara premises through drinking, raping women that came alone, and making prostitutes dance inside. After several such requests Babaji decided to visit Poanta Sahib accompanied by 13 GurSikhs. They left, from Gurdwara Haria Welan Hoshiarpur, riding horses and horse drawn carts. When they arrived near Gurdwara Poanta Sahib, two GurSikhs carried Babaji's message for the masand requesting initiation of a Akhand Path at the Gurdwara. The masand did not give a definitive answer, instead assured to respond before the next morning. Meanwhile the masand confided with the local police chief, one of his corrupt friends who endorsed and permitted his evil acts.

Babaji started the Akhand Path next morning which proceeded uninterrupted for 2 days. On the 2nd day, the masand came with the police. They arrested Babaji who was outside at that time and fired at the GurSikhs inside, who were conducting the Akhand Path. The GurSikhs had no guns. For they had not come with the intent to fight, but rather to hear the sangat's concerns. As a result they were brutally massacred. Eleven died and two survived. As each Pathi was shot while reciting the Guru Granth Sahib, another simply pushed his body and continued the uninterrupted recitation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Nihal Singh, 21 at the time, continued with his choar sewa (even when he had been shot 3 times) until the last GurSikh was shot. As the Akhand Path was interrupted, Nihal Singh finally fell. The only survivor was the youngest GurSikh, a 11 year old, who was found hiding behind a nagara (drums). Besides him all others were presumed dead. It wasn't until the bodies were being loaded up in a cart that a small child saw Nihal Singh breath and informed the local sikhs. The local sikhs who had gathered by now, screamed to get him some medical attention. Fortunately they succeeded in their efforts. He received medical attention and survived with Vaaheguru's grace. He was subsequently honored by many gurdwaras as "Jinda-Shaheed" Jathedar. The masand was finally removed. Akhand paths are held each year in the commemoration of this event.

A little something to help you on your way i cant do all the work for you! :nihungsmile:

[chatanga]

so you added meat to the bones dw. big deal.

I agree absolutely wiv your statement of what hapned. but let me add something which you did omit.

The DC ordered the police to force the gates and enter the gurdwara to evict the nihangs. Jathedar Harbhajan Singh and a few Nihangs had alreday been arrested outside with a few Nihnags. He told the police that they had started Akhand paath and would see it completed. The police entered the gurdwara with their shoes on thus desecrating the gurdwara. A nihnag seeing this threw two chakars at the police with injury to several police men, and the police opened fire on everyone they saw. Then they deliberatley caused damage to the gurdwara.

Now im not criticising the Nihnags for making a stand for/in thier Gurus house. I would have done the same. What i cant accept is that you apply one law for your people and one for your non-people.

Again your looking at two sides of the same coin.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

so you added meat to the bones dw. big deal.

I agree absolutely wiv your statement of what hapned. but let me add something which you did omit.

The DC ordered the police to force the gates and enter the gurdwara to evict the nihangs. Jathedar Harbhajan Singh and a few Nihangs had alreday been arrested outside with a few Nihnags. He told the police that they had started Akhand paath and would see it completed. The police entered the gurdwara with their shoes on thus desecrating the gurdwara. A nihnag seeing this threw two chakars at the police with injury to several police men, and the police opened fire on everyone they saw. Then they deliberatley caused damage to the gurdwara.

Now im not criticising the Nihnags for making a stand for/in thier Gurus house. I would have done the same. What i cant accept is that you apply one law for your people and one for your non-people.

Again your looking at two sides of the same coin.

What i cant accept is that you apply one law for your people and one for your non-people.

This is a very stupid thing to say.

Actually I didn’t omit anything from the extract, ( I’m not Javanmard) how I derived it is how its displayed I have other longer accounts but they are all similar in context just longer.

Er…the two different sides of a coin remain different although the analogy is nice I cant see how it applies unless it’s the same coin Amita Bhachan uses in Sholay with the same sides.

What you fail to understand is “motive and intent” and how it applies to both cases making them very different.

[chatanga]

the events are not exactly the same but the intent and motive of Bhindranwale was to ensure the sanctity of the Darbar Sahib remained intact as long as he was alive. The motive and intent of Nihang jatha was to ensure that the sanctity of gurdwara sahib remained intact as long as they were alive.

unless you have casue to differ?