That Turd Umar Is Back Trying To Bash Sikhism

[proactive]

Namstang,

Bijla Singh as well as all the other members are just giving their views and interpetations. Just because his might be different to yours or Pal 07's doesn't mean he is promoting 'sharia' Sikhi as you call it. Bijla Singh gave a different interpretation to the one that Pal 07 had and Pal 07 asked Bijla Singh to apologise for posting the 'wrong' interpretation Who is exhibiting intolerance here? Bijla Singh or Pal 07?

Everyone here is free to post their own interpretations but they should be able to back these up through intellectual discussion. Only one person here has been ridiculed and that was my old mate Chaudhari Rajinder Singh Nijjar, Msc, PhD, TSB, DFS and bar! Unless the interpretations given are downright ridiculous, mischevious or an attempt to mislead and cannot be defended in an intellectual manner then anyone is free to post their interpretations. None of Bijla Singh's interpretations come under these headings. The other members are free to challenge or accept these interpretations.

[Mehtab Singh]

It depends on context. Panktees you provided are all in same context. Words according to context mean different things. This is where viyakaran doesn't explain everything and spiritual meanings become more valid. Word Amrit can mean Naam, milk, food, five padarath etc. Word "Veda" means four vedas of hindus or sacha gyan depending on context. Word Raag means raga or prem (love). Similarly, word Ratt means blood, lover, love, happiness etc. Refer to Mahan Kosh page 3573 and read last tine of first paragraph of Nitnem Swayeeas. I will explain in details if I have time. Right now I don't. Guru Rakha

Thanks veeray, makes sense now. And you are right about context. Even Gyani Pinderpal Singh ji has said that Amrit means many things in Gurbani depending on context.

Thats exactly my point, no teekakars can claim 100% authority on gurbani. Hence, there is more than one interpertation of gurbani, no one is wrong, no one is right all the great teekakars translated gurbani according to one/two of three things - vikhaayaran, uthanka and antriv arths.

Thats true. I remember listening to a katha of Gyani Maskeen ji, and he says even he thought that only 1 teeka of Japji Sahib can be right, and he came across 50! But later on he said that none is wrong, and none is 100%. Even his own teeka, he said he didn't agree with his own viakhia after 7 years! So as Namastang veeray said, its all about avastha.

[PAL 07]

i am quoting the following gurbani shabads from memory, so please forgive any mistakes though i'm sure you have heard these shabads many times before.

simrit shastar pukaran pothia naam bina sab kuure gala hochia "the simrit shastars and other books all say out loudly that without naam all else is mere vanity" IF THESE BOOKS SAY THIS THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE FALSE..... ITS ABSURD

simrit shastar khoje tat vechar bin har bhaghat nahe chutkara "the pure elements that the simrite and shastars teach is that without bhagati you cannot obtain liberation " IF THESE BOOKS SAY THIS THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE FALSE ............ITS ABSURD

bed katebh kaho mat chuteh chuta jo NA veechare - some members here quote this shabad incorrectly as "the paths of the ved and kateb are false and false is he who does veechar on them" but how can this be ?? the viyaakaran arth (not viyakya arth) ie, meanings of words as they are spelt in words is

chuta - false

jo - who

na - doesn't

vichare - contemplate

If you members are right then the Kaber shabad should have been .....bed kateb kaho mat chuteh, chuta jo vechare but its written in SGGS as bed kateb kaho mat chuteh, chuta jo NA vechare

[PAL 07]

THEREFORE ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR MISTAKE

I'M STILL WAITING FOR AN APOLOGY !!!!!!!

[Bijla Singh]

simrit shastar pukaran pothia naam bina sab kuure gala hochia "the simrit shastars and other books all say out loudly that without naam all else is mere vanity" IF THESE BOOKS SAY THIS THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE FALSE..... ITS ABSURD

This shabad is all about doing naam simran which is highest of all. The shabad clearly states that whatever Vedas, Simartis and Puranas are saying out loud (pukaran) it is all empty talk because they lack naam. If you believe your interpretation is correct then show me which veda, purana or simartee says the above and what is "naam" in these books? How can one obtain it? Read Mannu Simartee which is full of corruption and inhumane things.

simrit shastar khoje tat vechar bin har bhaghat nahe chutkara "the pure elements that the simrite and shastars teach is that without bhagati you cannot obtain liberation " IF THESE BOOKS SAY THIS THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE FALSE ............ITS ABSURD

This panktee does not come in Gurbani the way you have stated. Gurbani states, "Sodhat Sodhat Tat Beechara, Bin Har Bhagat Nahin Chutkara" which means that Guru Sahib have searched everywhere and came to the conclusion that without naam simran salvation is not possible. This doesn't advocate hindu books. You are simply insulting Gurbani by misinterpreting it.

bed katebh kaho mat chuteh chuta jo NA veechare - some members here quote this shabad incorrectly as "the paths of the ved and kateb are false and false is he who does veechar on them" but how can this be ?? the viyaakaran arth (not viyakya arth) ie, meanings of words as they are spelt in words is

chuta - false

jo - who

na - doesn't

vichare - contemplate

You clearly don't read what other people post. Re-read the meanings first.

ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬਕਹਹੁਮਤਝੂਠੇਝੂਠਾਜੋਨਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬ – Vedas and Quran

ਕਹਹੁ -I (Kabeer) say

ਮਤ - Religions

ਝੂਠੇ – false

Now the meanings are clear. Kabeer Ji says that “I openly say that religions (ways) preached by Vedas and Quran are false and false are those who do not understand this fact.” The word “Mat” does not mean “Do not” but it means religions or different way to reach God.

Me and "sunny love kirtan" have provided numerous quotes from Gurbani to show that vedas and other books do not give sacha gyan or naam to anyone and one can read them for four yugs but will not get anywhere. Gurbani does not contradict itself. Your interpretations show that Guru sahib is praising vedas at one place and then rejecting them at another. This cannot be true.

As far apology goes you can forget about it. This is a discussion forum and everyone has the right to post what they believe in. In my opinion, you are wrong but I am not asking for any apology because this is the place to learn. Read previous posts first and see how quotes others are providing directly contradict your own interpretations. Don't insult Gurbani like this. Guru Sahib, Bhagats and Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Dasam Bani have rejected vedas and other hindu books.

[PAL 07]

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ >ਨ< ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬ – Vedas and Quran

ਕਹਹੁ -I (Kabeer) say

ਮਤ - Religions

ਝੂਠੇ – false

YOU MUST THINK I WAS BORN YESTERDAY AND YOU ARE DOING BEADBI OF GURUS SHABAD

okay so forget the other two shabads that just came in my mind and lets talk about the shabad below

ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬ – Vedas and Quran

ਕਹਹੁ -I (Kabeer) say

ਮਤ - Religions

ਝੂਠੇ – false

you have posted the above viyakarn arth which are fine but why have you hidden the letter N which comes in the actual shabad and indicated NAA=NOT.

why are you shredding gurbani to suit our own ego

[PAL 07]

QUOTE PAL07

simrit shastar pukaran pothia naam bina sab kuure gala hochia "the simrit shastars and other books all say out loudly that without naam all else is mere vanity" IF THESE BOOKS SAY THIS THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE FALSE..... ITS ABSURD

YOU WROTE

This shabad is all about doing naam simran which is highest of all. The shabad clearly states that whatever Vedas, Simartis and Puranas are saying out loud (pukaran) it is all empty talk because they lack naam.

WHERE IN THE ABOVE SHABAD DOES IT SAY THAT....... THE SHABAD SAYS THAT VEDAS SIMARTIS AND PURANAS ARE SAYING OUT LOUD(PUKARAN) THAT WITHOUT NAM NEHEE CHUTKARA

AGAIN YOU ARE VERY VERY CLEARLY CORRUPTING GURBANI

WHY??????????????????????

[PAL 07]

YOU WROTE

Don't insult Gurbani like this. Guru Sahib, Bhagats and Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Dasam Bani have rejected vedas and other hindu books.

OFF COURSE I AGREE WITH YOU THAT GURUS REJECTED VEDAS ETC AND THEMSELVES FOLLOWED SIKHI...WHEN GURUNANAKDEVJI RETURNED FROM BHENI RIVER THEY SAID "NA KO HINDU NA MUSALMAAN, SO WHOS PATH SHALL I FOLLOW I SHALL FOLOW THE PATH OF GOD"

BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ >ਨ< ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

THIS IS GURUS HUKAM

[Mehtab Singh]

Singho whats going on? That Umar doesn't even know we are fighting in a thread started over him and his anti-Sikh venom, and we are here fighting over Gurbani translations. He has more than achieved his purpose. Not only has he been attacking Sikhi, but he has managed to get Singhs fight among themselves. Those who talk about a sovereign Sikh nation (which only Gurujee can bless us with) should realize that we are unable to live together in peace even on an online forum (please don't grab my neck for this, you know what I mean). Let the beginning of our Khalsa Raj dream atleast be peaceful. I know I don't have 1% gyaan as compared to most of you, but its really sad and pathetic to see Singhs argue over issues (I am not gonna call it petty issue as you guys seem to be severely serious about it) and go off-track from the real issue. The thread began as a headsup regarding that dude's nefarious plans against Sikhi. What are you guys doing about that? Yes you've answered him several times, and we respect you for that. Bravo! Now why the fighting among each other? Those Muslims (if they visit this forum) would probably be laughing at all of us, and passing comments like "Bollywood does show these guys in their true form".

Sorry if I offended any of you, but I think (and hopefully the sangat will agree with me) that we've had enough fighting among Singhs in every bloody thread that starts on this forum, and this has been going on for months upon months now. We have enough so-called Sikhs over here already who can't digest their breakfast/lunch/dinner unless they haven't posted something insulting Hindus/Hinduism/Muslims/Islam. Its getting to a point where not just me (you might think I am a crazy ex-Hindu whining coz Hindus are being dissed but it don't bother me coz I aint the 1 doing nindya) but loads of others have had it.

Bhull chukk maaf

[Bijla Singh]

This will be my last post since pal doesn't seem to understand anything. I only provided word to word meanings of the first half line as the second half is clear but I don't think he gets it. So here it is:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬ – Vedas and Quran

ਕਹਹੁ -I (Kabeer) say

ਮਤ - Religions

ਝੂਠੇ – false

ਝੂਠਾ - false is he

ਜੋ ਨ - who doesn't

ਬਿਚਾਰੈ - do vichaar of this fact

I (Kabeer) openly say that religions (ways) preached by Vedas and Quran are false and false are those who do not do vichaar or understand this fact.

Some scholars believe that the line means: "Do not call vedas and quran false without any vichaar." Either way both mean the same. Even after doing vichaar, one can reach the conclusion that vedas are false and teach how to sacrifice animals and human during havans. Mannu Simartee talks about how to torture and kill untouchables.

WHERE IN THE ABOVE SHABAD DOES IT SAY THAT....... THE SHABAD SAYS THAT VEDAS SIMARTIS AND PURANAS ARE SAYING OUT LOUD(PUKARAN) THAT WITHOUT NAM NEHEE CHUTKARA

Read the entire shabad first. Whatever hindu books are saying out loud is all hocha and koor. They do not have naam which is why at the end of the Shabad Guru Sahib asks Waheguru for naam. Otherwise, he would've stated that He has found naam in vedas. If you believe that:

VEDAS SIMARTIS AND PURANAS ARE SAYING OUT LOUD(PUKARAN) THAT WITHOUT NAM NEHEE CHUTKARA

Then provide me with a reference to hindu texts. Which hindu text is saying this? Give me the page number also.

OFF COURSE I AGREE WITH YOU THAT GURUS REJECTED VEDAS ETC

Then clearly false was rejected by Guru Sahib. If vedas and puranas were true then why did Guru Sahib reject them?

I think you should read Prof. Sahib Singh's meanings first, then Bhai Veer Singh's and then listen to audios of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. Bhai Kahan Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh also provide good meanings. Don't derive interpretations from your own mat and propagate vedas which are rejected in Sikhi. Study Islam and you will see how much garbage there is in Quran. Making up stuff about them would be wrong but highlighting what is written in those scriptures is not slandering them but exposing the truth. Use your energy to counter RSS and Muslims to defend Sikhi instead of fighting me. Believe in whatever you want. I simply wrote what I have learned. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh