Destruction Of Sikhi By The Uk Youth

[sherlsurj]

i can tell you are a pessimist. i particularry liked the way u mentioned relationships and dancing. relationships are all a lot of youth talk about these days so its good to clear that up. as for dancing my family is dancing mad but the quotes you gave are beatuiful and so clear thank you. i will defo act upon then.

[THE WARRIOR]

they'll be telling niddar on friday in the akhara how they told us all on sikh sangat how extreme our views r. hoping that nang niddar will give em a pat on the back. i used to see em wen i went LOL stupids nangs. go ask ur boys how they got beat up at oldbury gurdwara and how niddar ran away to his car while his chela got beats and how they all went and told the police. so much for the vanguard.

If you have an axe to grind with Niddar take it to him, He’s got nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. Otherwise contribute to the debate. It’s strange how the mods get all flustered when there is talk that attacks their belief systems yet they’re perfectly happy to sit back and let others they don’t agree with get verbally attacked by those that support breaking the law and violence, there’s something very sickening about it, yet fundamentally it demonstrates behind the all humble shell its just narrow visions and insecurities.

[buddasingh]

To original poster...

I may see eye to eye on some points and maybe not on others.

But you brought your views forward in a respectful manner. You did not warrant flippant and insulting responses. I am sorry that you had to deal with that.

I rather disagree with a respectful person than agree with a disrespectful person.

[bhai sahib ji]

WARRIOUR Ji

Thank you for your response. However I am disappointed that to date there has been no substance within your replies. You state that you do not use "Wikipedia for any knowledge" so please tell us where Wikipedia is wrong with regards to the definition of Karma and which source states it is the same in all religions, since from what I have read in Wikipedia and elsewhere there is not not a common definition or understanding. There is a core consensus but then the different religions have a different viewpoint.

There is no difference between Hindu Karma, Sikh Karma, Christian Karma, Karma is Karma. There are no separate processes they all are fundamentally the same.

My research has led me to believe that other than a small sub-sect the majority of Christians do not believe in Karma since Christianity has always viewed the doctrine of Karma as a great evil.

A large majority of Christians belive that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith, and that to think otherwise is offensive. For them, the idea of the Abrahamic God, dispersing decisions through ineffable and omniscient judgements, makes the concept of karma redundant.

So I am confused as to how you can make the above statement.

"If YOU want to reach out to people it should be unconditional, anything else is false"

Let me explain this to you, what it means is if you were genuine and truly concerned you would reach out to people unconditionally, you wouldn’t care what people have done are doing, who are you to judge anyone? Your actions are false simply because you have chosen to judge certain people you don’t live according to your standards, your “high jeevans” how can you know anyone? You don’t even realise its absolutely wrong to misquote Bani to suit your argument.

Thank you for your interpretation of the above, however from your posts I would not have guessed that is what it meant. Since as is evident since I posted my message you took it as a personally attack against the Nihaangs, which it was not since it is referring to all jathebandi. As I said in my post the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in all of their gutke supports that fact that amritdhari Sikhs should not indulge in these activities. But you have decided to judge me from the outset. I have not attempted to judge anyone all I ask is an explanation as to why activities considered inappropriate for amritdhari Sikh to indulge in 7-10 years are now considered appropriate? If I am mistaken and they are not inappropriate then please educate me. I have used bani to provide examples which lead me to my conclusion if bani supports the actions then please let me know.

You may say it is because the other jathebandi have always hid these action but the UK men in blue (would not call them Nihaangs since I am yet to meet one who follows the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in full, this is not a judgement but an observation.) would say that they do not hide their actions they do them in the open. However this is also a lie since in other jathebnadi the individuals are doing these things openly and even the UK men in blue do not do everything openly, they too have activities they undertake behind closed doors and deny in public. I will not go into those here since this thread is not about that. With that in mind can i respectfully ask that this thread not be turned into Nhiaang bashing since there has been plenty of that going on and lets stick to the problem in hand; and as I have stated the UK men in blue are not a true repreenation of Nihaangs in India. Having met the Nihaangs in India and stayed with them they are completely different and not aligned to Hindu mat as much as the UK men in blue are.

Kaur_Khalistani thank you very much for your response. However if the issue is because as you state:

the biggest and most common reason>>> cuz they the YOUTH! in jaawaanii's craze there are only few who think of their actions. in jaawaaani...as wise(siyaanay) have said a person thinks no ones watching um, we feel we can do anything...and yes we can lol (but thn we regret the wrong done when we get old), ...i guess thats why its also refred to as "Jawwaanii da Nasshaa" by some

Why take amrit? Why not then just enjoy your youth? The concern I have is with amritdhari undertaking this activity.

because youth these days see the hypocrisy of some of the so called "ck" people they looked up to earlier and dont wanna be like them.

If it is because of this why go off the rails? Should you not be demonstrating to those ck people what true Sikhi is? None of us are perfect which is why Guru Ji gave us sangat, so that we could learn right and wrong from each other.

[kaur_khalistani_lioness]

thanks =)

i was just pointing out some of the reasons we thought of...as i said it was a narrow perspective! they are just excuses or the way our minds think.

i love the topic u have started though...it needs to be discussed. as someone above said,here in US ...its rare to see that stuff, maybe because most of the people dont live close to each other and nevr get to see what everyone does on daily bases.

---

good question as to why take amrit?..

people are jus at different stages i guess? i agree its wrng for those who dont know much about sikhi to say what they doing is right and tellin others that its ok if they do it too ( misleading others...someone wrote in the gupt section)

maybe i shouldnt talk since i dont know much about sangat livin in uk

another thought is...what youth is doing now might help the next generation when they(old gen) talk about their doings, wht they did was wrong and feel the youth sholdnt do it ...how they made a mistake? which things are big roadblocks in life/sikhi.... it could be a learning process for them by experience?(cuz evrything is happning under his glance..."According to the Glance of Grace with which the True Lord beholds us, so do we become.")

anyhow...im lookin fwd to readin more on this topic here...could learn some stuff i do that i shouldnt cuz no one evrr told me how wrong it is.

bhul chuk muaff karni and please the shabd that is posted by u...i stil need to understand it. i thought it gives one answer ?

sorry for my naive thoughts here

wjkk wjkf!

[DRUGHI]

Each individual will find truth in what he/she does, according to the karmic patterns conditioning his or her perceptions.

[rupinder singh]

God bless the original poster for taking the time out to start this topic and some real life valid points being raised.

Its the right of all of us to make these observations and make efforts to do something about it. Years of relaxing maryada has lead to these kinds of accepted actions. Those people backing up amritdharis in open pre-marital relationships and those trimming/waxing amritdharis need to revist their sikhi and really think hard about it.

Now I aint saying I am some mahapursh, but it is upsetting to see that we are willing to accept the losening up of the basic essential boundries within Sikhi. If someone wishes to brand me as being judgemental for that than so be it.

[THE WARRIOR]

WARRIOUR Ji

Thank you for your response. However I am disappointed that to date there has been no substance within your replies. You state that you do not use "Wikipedia for any knowledge" so please tell us where Wikipedia is wrong with regards to the definition of Karma and which source states it is the same in all religions, since from what I have read in Wikipedia and elsewhere there is not not a common definition or understanding. There is a core consensus but then the different religions have a different viewpoint.

There is no difference between Hindu Karma, Sikh Karma, Christian Karma, Karma is Karma. There are no separate processes they all are fundamentally the same.

My research has led me to believe that other than a small sub-sect the majority of Christians do not believe in Karma since Christianity has always viewed the doctrine of Karma as a great evil.

A large majority of Christians belive that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith, and that to think otherwise is offensive. For them, the idea of the Abrahamic God, dispersing decisions through ineffable and omniscient judgements, makes the concept of karma redundant.

So I am confused as to how you can make the above statement.

"If YOU want to reach out to people it should be unconditional, anything else is false"

Let me explain this to you, what it means is if you were genuine and truly concerned you would reach out to people unconditionally, you wouldn’t care what people have done are doing, who are you to judge anyone? Your actions are false simply because you have chosen to judge certain people you don’t live according to your standards, your “high jeevans” how can you know anyone? You don’t even realise its absolutely wrong to misquote Bani to suit your argument.

Thank you for your interpretation of the above, however from your posts I would not have guessed that is what it meant. Since as is evident since I posted my message you took it as a personally attack against the Nihaangs, which it was not since it is referring to all jathebandi. As I said in my post the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in all of their gutke supports that fact that amritdhari Sikhs should not indulge in these activities. But you have decided to judge me from the outset. I have not attempted to judge anyone all I ask is an explanation as to why activities considered inappropriate for amritdhari Sikh to indulge in 7-10 years are now considered appropriate? If I am mistaken and they are not inappropriate then please educate me. I have used bani to provide examples which lead me to my conclusion if bani supports the actions then please let me know.

You may say it is because the other jathebandi have always hid these action but the UK men in blue (would not call them Nihaangs since I am yet to meet one who follows the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in full, this is not a judgement but an observation.) would say that they do not hide their actions they do them in the open. However this is also a lie since in other jathebnadi the individuals are doing these things openly and even the UK men in blue do not do everything openly, they too have activities they undertake behind closed doors and deny in public. I will not go into those here since this thread is not about that. With that in mind can i respectfully ask that this thread not be turned into Nhiaang bashing since there has been plenty of that going on and lets stick to the problem in hand; and as I have stated the UK men in blue are not a true repreenation of Nihaangs in India. Having met the Nihaangs in India and stayed with them they are completely different and not aligned to Hindu mat as much as the UK men in blue are.

Kaur_Khalistani thank you very much for your response. However if the issue is because as you state:

the biggest and most common reason>>> cuz they the YOUTH! in jaawaanii's craze there are only few who think of their actions. in jaawaaani...as wise(siyaanay) have said a person thinks no ones watching um, we feel we can do anything...and yes we can lol (but thn we regret the wrong done when we get old), ...i guess thats why its also refred to as "Jawwaanii da Nasshaa" by some

Why take amrit? Why not then just enjoy your youth? The concern I have is with amritdhari undertaking this activity.

because youth these days see the hypocrisy of some of the so called "ck" people they looked up to earlier and dont wanna be like them.

If it is because of this why go off the rails? Should you not be demonstrating to those ck people what true Sikhi is? None of us are perfect which is why Guru Ji gave us sangat, so that we could learn right and wrong from each other.

The sangath is not there for you to learn right and wrong from, nor is that its purpose. Realistically today the sangath only works on popular opinion.

Anyway addressing other issues.

Devotion does not exist outside of Karma, is Devotion alone enough for salvation? Yes it is and No it isn’t only unconditional devotion is salvation. The problem is everybody is “how to be devotional” and not “what is devotion” this is flawed. If a type of religion does not believe in system of Karma it does not mean Karma does not exist, equally a type Christian claims salvation ONLY via Christ, which actually most Christians do, what does that mean for the rest of us? When Christ was here he didn’t hang out with Christians nor did he write the bible. You state that different religions have different concepts of Karma, ok so what’s your concept? There is one the same one it’s just that you’re so hung-up on anti this anti- that you simply don’t understand it or want to.

We only want to understand logic and our limited devotion which we claim to be absolute but its not. But the true devout are above this. The Human mentality is such we create the God we want, The Guru we want, the Granth we want, because we don’t want to understand what is already in existence. The type of devotion even if limited if anything only leads to heavenly states it does not lead to liberation and Mukti, heavenly states are only temporary and really amount to nothing. This is all Karma. Consciously or unconsciously, aware or not every living being strives towards salvation, liberation, mukti.

Powerful negative tendencies are deeply engraining, the judging, classifying and damning of fellow people are such tendencies, False motive and false actions are only damning to one own self.

There’s nothing here contradictory to Sikhi as you claim it to be, this is only a tribal card you're playing for a popular opinion, its all there you're just not looking. there’s nothing here that is negative towards humanity.

Your views on Nihangs, Buddha Dal, etc don’t even warrant a response, you just pretend to know what you’re talking about. With one face you slander with the other you tell others not to. I have never claimed to be a Nihang, nor a representative of Buddha Dal. As for your indirect slating of the U.K Nihangs and Niddar that’s up to you, personally although not a student of Shastar Vidya, I have nothing but respect for the man who I have spoken to on occasions. However in the mentality of upnai this is assassination by association, to which I couldn’t care less.

The issue here is the mentality of people, if anything, so many pseudo-Bhai Sahibs out there wagging the moral finger that in some way or another put people off. If people dance they choose to, if people are in relationships they choose to be, if people dance and choose to be in relationships does not suggest they are anything less. If dancing and all the other “vices” you detest are not you then they are not you, but the biggest “vice” is judgment and condemnation.

This is my last post on this, its getting kinda repetitive now.

End

[bhai sahib ji]

Realistically today the sangath only works on popular opinion.

Thank you WARRIOR you have confirmed the point I started with and again I ask the question why is this so? It just so happens that it is popular opinion that what I may believe as being inappropriate is not inappropriate.

If a type of religion does not believe in system of Karma it does not mean Karma does not exist,

That is not quite what I said, since if Christians do not believe in Karma then how can there be a Christian viewpoint on it which is the same as Hindu’s Sikhs etc as you stated?

We only want to understand logic and our limited devotion which we claim to be absolute but its not. But the true devout are above this. The Human mentality is such we create the God we want, The Guru we want, the Granth we want, because we don’t want to understand what is already in existence. The type of devotion even if limited if anything only leads to heavenly states it does not lead to liberation and Mukti, heavenly states are only temporary and really amount to nothing. This is all Karma. Consciously or unconsciously, aware or not every living being strives towards salvation, liberation, mukti.

To some extent I agree with the above since these are the stages of bhagti. Initially yes devotion is limited within the confines of rules because it has to be but then you do move to the stages of liberation. Liberation however refers to liberation from the five vices and worldly attachment. Not liberation of actions

There’s nothing here contradictory to Sikhi as you claim it to be, this is only a tribal card you're playing for a popular opinion, its all there you're just not looking. there’s nothing here that is negative towards humanity.

Well please point us all in the direction of where this divine knowledge is. Since what I have stated is far from a card to support popular opinion. Conversely what you are advocating is supportive of popular opinion of do what you like since it is all in your Karam!

The issue here is the mentality of people, if anything, so many pseudo-Bhai Sahibs out there wagging the moral finger that in some way or another put people off. If people dance they choose to, if people are in relationships they choose to be, if people dance and choose to be in relationships does not suggest they are anything less.

The basis of all religions and mankind as a whole is a moral one. Every country has laws to ensure moral decorum is maintained. Again you accuse me of judging people but I am attempting to give those who undertake these activities to explain to me why it is ok for them to choose to do so. I am not saying that they are any less of an individual but if their actions are solely supported by an argument around Karma then they are seriously flawed. Our actions should be based around Gurbani hence why it has been provided to us. It discusses all aspects of life and contains the wisdom one requires.

This is my last post on this, its getting kinda repetitive now.

Very sorry to read this statement, not sure what others think but the only receptiveness appears to be from you since I do not appear to be getting the answers to any of my questions. Even your Karma argument is veiled and you are not completely opening up your understanding of Karma and Sikhi and how Karma refers to the same thing in all religions in its entirety.

For both of us and the rest of sikh youth I hope as Guru Arjun Dev Ji states Maharaj shows everyone the light.

giaan a(n)jan gur dheeaa agiaan a(n)dhhaer binaas ||

The Guru has given the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom, and dispelled the darkness of ignorance.

har kirapaa thae sa(n)th bhaettiaa naanak man paragaas ||1||

By the Lord's Grace, I have met the Saint; O Nanak, my mind is enlightened. ||1||

Kaur_Khalistani the current position you state in the US is what the UK was like 10 years ago

here in US ...its rare to see that stuff, maybe because most of the people dont live close to each other and nevr get to see what everyone does on daily bases.

As Sikhi has expanded in the UK we have begun to see a distortation in values and as I keep saying I am unclear if I am living in the ‘good old days’ or if current actions are still inappropriate. If they are not and someone can explain to me why they are acceptable I am more than happy to remain quite on this issue and support those undertaking the activities.

another thought is...what youth is doing now might help the next generation when they(old gen) talk about their doings, wht they did was wrong and feel the youth sholdnt do it ...how they made a mistake? which things are big roadblocks in life/sikhi.... it could be a learning process for them by experience?(cuz evrything is happning under his glance..."According to the Glance of Grace with which the True Lord beholds us, so do we become.")

I think this is where we are going to get stuck since the next generation will say “it was ok for you to do all these things and you too were amritdhari.”

Everything is happening under his glance but WARRIOR would have us believe we do not need to worry about that since it is in our Karam to do these things and such since Guru Ji wrote our Karam it is ok. But in my mind what Guru Ji is saying is be careful what you do because Chitr and Gupt are writing it down as Guru Nanak Dev Ji states:

gaavanih thudhhano chith gupath likh jaanan likh likh dhharam veechaarae ||

Chitar and Gupat, the recording angels of the conscious and the subconscious, sing to You; they know, and they write, and on the basis of what they write, the Lord of Dharma passes judgement.

With reference to the earlier shabad I posted

Whereas a shabad by Guru Amar Das Ji makes it very explicit:

hukamae karam kamaavanae paeiai kirath firaao ||

According to the Lord's Command, people perform their actions; they wander around, driven by the karma of their past actions.

hukamae dharasan dhaekhanaa jeh bhaejehi theh jaao ||

By the Lord's Command, they behold the Blessed Vision of His Darshan. Wherever He sends them, there they go.

hukamae har har man vasai hukamae sach samaao ||5||

By His Command, the Lord, Har, Har, abides within our minds; by His Command we merge in Truth. ||5||

hukam n jaanehi bapurrae bhoolae firehi gavaar ||

The wretched fools do not know the Lord's Will; they wander around making mistakes.

manehat(h) karam kamaavadhae nith nith hohi khuaar ||

They go about their business stubborn-mindedly; they are disgraced forever and ever.

a(n)thar saa(n)th n aavee naa sach lagai piaar ||6||

Inner peace does not come to them; they do not embrace love for the True Lord. ||6||

guramukheeaa muh sohanae gur kai haeth piaar ||

Beautiful are the faces of the Gurmukhs, who bear love and affection for the Guru.

sachee bhagathee sach rathae dhar sachai sachiaar ||

Through true devotional worship, they are attuned to Truth; at the True Door, they are found to be true.

aaeae sae paravaan hai sabh kul kaa karehi oudhhaar ||7||

Blessed is their coming into being; they redeem all their ancestors. ||7||

sabh nadharee karam kamaavadhae nadharee baahar n koe ||

All do their deeds under the Lord's Glance of Grace; no one is beyond His Vision.

jaisee nadhar kar dhaekhai sachaa thaisaa hee ko hoe ||

According to the Glance of Grace with which the True Lord beholds us, so do we become.

naanak naam vaddaaeeaa karam paraapath hoe ||8||3||20||

O Nanak, the Glorious Greatness of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is received only by His Mercy. ||8||3||20||

I was attempting to convey how Guru Sahib states:

Karam are your past actions which your suffer for in this current life. But with Guru Ji’s kirpa we can wash away these deeds. However those who do not realise what the Lord’s will is, which is what Gurbani spells out to us, they will suffer. The key point as you highlighted is that it is only if Guru Ji wills it that you receive Naam which will give you salvation. By receiving of Naam it refers to repeating Gurmantar and reaching a higher spiritual plain and not taking amrit and receiving it from the Panj Pyaare. There are numerous people who have taken amrit but are not yet fortunate enough yet to be able to do simran. That is a gift Guru Ji gives himself.

[bhai sahib ji]

I am very surprised that so far no-one has replied to this post to explain the rationale behind what was highlighted. I appreciate that WARRIOR came along to confuse us all and has now run away.... perhaps it was not in his Karam to answer the questions posed fully!!!!

To me though it does begin to appear that perhaps the youth are aware that their actions are inappropriate and such as long as they do not enter into a debate about them they can continue to conduct them. Whilst convincing their mind that they are not doing anything wrong since they are doing all these other good things which makes them much better!!!!

It is a shame that we are in this position and with so many people turning a blind eye to the activities and so many engaging in them I am very unclear as to what the future holds for Sikhi in the UK.