Ragi Darshan Singh Pushed And Booed By Surrey Sangat

[apne]

Interesting points so far..as the admim. have already decided about the Dasam Issue...some are still arguing over it. As such i feel i can add another point to it. It is a well accepted fact that not all of compositions of Dasam granth are work of Guru Gobind Singhji. But the way two Takhts are projecting it makes it look like all of the work is his composition.

The debate here in Punjab is that when the panth is celebrating Gurgaddi Diwas, some motivated people are raising controveries. If they had wanted they could have waited for a year to let the celebrations pass.

The problem is that the leadership of the panth has been taken over by semi-literate Jathedars and cynical Nihangs. These kind of people are for promoting their own gains and not that of Sikhi. There is allround corruption in gurdwaras. Common people who are sincere have no say. Lumpen elements in foreign countries, esp. Canada raise the slogan of khalistan for monetry gains or take control of gurdwaras. It has become very difficult to differentiate between honest and criminal enterprises functioning in realm of Sikhi.

Sikhism is in doldrums in India, if its instituions get destroyed, Sikhi will not be what Gurus wanted. Majority of Jathedars, so called sants, panthic leaders are corrupt and not loyal to Gurus injuction. The dedication of Sri hazur Sahib is un-questionable, but they do have brahminical practises.

In Punjab, the money offerings made to Gurdwaras are used by Akali Dal and SGPC for fighting elections. Whenever Badal does a big rally, the food at the rally is sent from langar of Harmandir Sahib. Whoever replaces Badal would be equally corrupt. Corruption will never go out from Gurdwaras because of money involved. These people have no hesitation in mis-using offerings of devotees, who earn by their hard work and their crimes seem to miss Gurujis eye.

[SunSingh]

Interesting points so far..as the admim. have already decided about the Dasam Issue...some are still arguing over it. As such i feel i can add another point to it. It is a well accepted fact that not all of compositions of Dasam granth are work of Guru Gobind Singhji. But the way two Takhts are projecting it makes it look like all of the work is his composition.

It's true that parts of Dasam Bani are translations from puratan granths made by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Other parts of Dasam Bani include his original compositions such as Jaap Sahib and commentaries on translations such as the beginning of Chandi di Vaar.

All of Dasam Granth Sahib ji, however, did come from the Guru's mouth, he did speak those translations and felt that they were important enough to be preserved and translated. I think some people lose sight of that fact.

The debate here in Punjab is that when the panth is celebrating Gurgaddi Diwas, some motivated people are raising controveries. If they had wanted they could have waited for a year to let the celebrations pass.

interesting point. People like Prof. Darshan Singh are now saying the ardass is suspect b/c the panthic formal ardass comes from Chandi di Vaar, which was approved by sgpc in the Sikh Rahit Maryada.

Sikhism is in doldrums in India, if its instituions get destroyed, Sikhi will not be what Gurus wanted. Majority of Jathedars, so called sants, panthic leaders are corrupt and not loyal to Gurus injuction. The dedication of Sri hazur Sahib is un-questionable, but they do have brahminical practises.

The majority of sants? While it's true that some have fallen off the right path, what is it specifically that makes you think that it's the majority?

btw, not criticising, just asking for clarification.

[apne]

It's true that parts of Dasam Bani are translations from puratan granths made by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Other parts of Dasam Bani include his original compositions such as Jaap Sahib and commentaries on translations such as the beginning of Chandi di Vaar.

All of Dasam Granth Sahib ji, however, did come from the Guru's mouth, he did speak those translations and felt that they were important enough to be preserved and translated. I think some people lose sight of that fact.

I am not a big scholar on this subject. But some parts were still not written by Guruji and that is enough, when you compare it to Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The majority of sants? While it's true that some have fallen off the right path, what is it specifically that makes you think that it's the majority?

btw, not criticising, just asking for clarification.

The sant samaj is cutting at the roots of Sikhism, and they don't even have an authority in any Sikh scripture. Most preach kachi bani. Many of them are bad as the most Jathedars.

The most pious man i have seen in my life was Bhagat Puran Singh. He was a thousand times better than modern sants, yet he called himself Bhagat and not Brahmgyani Sant Baba.

[caveman]

It's true that parts of Dasam Bani are translations from puratan granths made by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Other parts of Dasam Bani include his original compositions such as Jaap Sahib and commentaries on translations such as the beginning of Chandi di Vaar.

All of Dasam Granth Sahib ji, however, did come from the Guru's mouth, he did speak those translations and felt that they were important enough to be preserved and translated. I think some people lose sight of that fact.

I am not a big scholar on this subject. But some parts were still not written by Guruji and that is enough, when you compare it to Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The majority of sants? While it's true that some have fallen off the right path, what is it specifically that makes you think that it's the majority?

btw, not criticising, just asking for clarification.

The sant samaj is cutting at the roots of Sikhism, and they don't even have an authority in any Sikh scripture. Most preach kachi bani. Many of them are bad as the most Jathedars.

The most pious man i have seen in my life was Bhagat Puran Singh. He was a thousand times better than modern sants, yet he called himself Bhagat and not Brahmgyani Sant Baba.

i agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[SunSingh]

"I am not a big scholar on this subject. But some parts were still not written by Guruji and that is enough, when you compare it to Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib."

Many portions of Guru Granth Sahib ji are not written by the Gurus either. But they were accepted by the Gurus, same as the translated portions of Dasam Bani. We can see an example of this by the fact that the Tenth Nanak wrote a commentary on it at the beginning of Chandi di Vaar.

"The sant samaj is cutting at the roots of Sikhism, and they don't even have an authority in any Sikh scripture. Most preach kachi bani. Many of them are bad as the most Jathedars."

Sants have authority from scripture in numerous places. See my post on role of sants in Khalsa panth: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...21&hl=sants

Gurbani tells us to learn about the Guru's teachings from the sants. Unfortunately, some people think they know more then sant mahapursh and mislead many others who are unaware of this, despite the fact that Japji Sahib states that the consciousness of the Sikh at the highest levels is reformed such that ordinary persons cannot comprehend it.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"Many portions of Guru Granth Sahib ji are not written by the Gurus either. But they were accepted by the Gurus, same as the translated portions of Dasam Bani."

that is a false statement.

yes, there is bhagat baani in guru granth sahib ji but this baani was carefully placed in the adi granth sahib. the difference between guru granth sahib ji and dasam granth is that guru granth sahib has the seal and blessing of guru sahib himself. guru gobind singh ji gave gurgaddi to guru granth sahib ji.

dasam granth, was not one granth, it was a bunch of baanis put together into a single granth by bhai mani singh, this is even stated by the hard core dasam granthis.

personally, i think the problem is when these people doing double parkash are calling dasam granth sri guru dasam granth, that is the most disrespectful thing. there has only been one guru of the sikhs at any given point of time.

do we know why guru granth sahib was written in laari waar, in raags, with ghars, etc? guru granth sahib is locked in a unique code so no external baani could not have been inserted by devious people. guru sahib went through all this trouble for a reason. so we wouldn't have to hit our heads against the wall wondering if guru granth sahib ji is legit.

read dasam granth, go for it, reading is good, but only guru granth sahib is guru. people want to respect guru gobind singh jee's bachans, well the greatest bachan is that guru granth sahib ji is the only guru of the sikhs.

people are comparing apples and oranges. on one hand we have guru granth sahib ji which was given gurgaddi meaning guru sahib himself put the seal on it. then we have dasam granth which came after guru sahib's physical being.

this is no different than how sikhs say the bible was not written by jesus, but his disciples, and the quran was not written by mohammad, but his followers. well, we have a unique scenario in which our guru sahib wrote everything himself and sealed it in laarivaar and in raags.

i mean if dasam granthis really want to have dasam granth as a parallel guru, then just add dasam granth to guru granth sahib and make a huge garnth with over 3000 angs, i guess that's what people are going for.

there are baanis which are accepted as words written and uttered by the tenth nanak(nitnem), guru gobind singh ji, but gurgaddi and guriayee is given to gian guru sri guru granth sahib ji only. period.

the baani of guru teg bahadur ji (9th nanak) is in guru granth sahib ji. guru gobind singh ji is accredited with this. so thsi obviously shows that guru gobind singh ji actively selected what would beenshrined in the eternal guru of ths sikhs. with thsi in mind, who are we to question that, hey this is also gurbaani. No. guru gobind singh ji himslef decided what was going to be held up as gurbaani.

guru teg bahadur ji's baani proves that guru gobind singh ji added what needed to be added. guru sahib knows better than any of us, no matter how big our dumallas or our shashtars.

and to those who say you need dasam granth for bir ras, all i gotta say is that guru granth sahib is pooran satguru, no shortcomings, if you can't get all things from guru granth sahib ji, including bir ras, then stop calling guru garnth sahib ji pooran and call it semi-pooran.

anyways. i'm sure some people are going to take everything i said in a bad light and put me on the "kala afghana list" even though i have never read the guy's stuff.

my views are based on what i have been reading in sri guru granth sahib ji. that is my only savior. not any book on sikhism, any person, any jatha. my teacher, my source of everything good in my life is sri guru granth sahib ji.

peace.

[SunSingh]

Who are you to say I wrote a false statement? What i wrote is true, you need to stop using such cheap debate tactics.

Nobody is claiming that Guru Granth Sahib ji is not pooran satguru, but you may have noticed that Dasam Bani is required to make Amrit. This means that the Gurbani from Dasam Granth Sahib is equal to the Gurbani from Guru Granth Sahib. And this bani, such as Jaap Sahib, is every bit the Guru of the sikhs as Guru Granth Sahib's bani such as Japji Sahib is. If it were not, it would mean that Gurbani that is Guru required something lower to make Amrit, which in itself would lower the status of Gurbani. That would be an inherent contradiction.

In the end, many of the Guru's writings were lost when crossing a flooded river when leaving Anandpur. However, Bhai Mani Singh ji, a bhramgyani and scholar in the Guru's court, who wrote down Gurbani as the Guru dictated it to him, knew all which banis were Dasam Bani and which writings were not. He collected the various portions of Dasam Bani together into one granth.

Dasam Bani is meant to be in one granth, in the Chritrs, which contain Chaupai Sahib, there is a stanza stating that this granth has been completed. It gives the date and location of completion. This shows that the bani is meant to be kept as a complete granth.

When Singhs got together a few decades later to decide if all of Dasam Bani should be kept together in one granth or not, they collectively agreed to base it on the success of a mission to kill Massa Rangar, who had occupied Darbar Sahib. While it seems like an arbitrary method, the sangat still did ardass to the Guru, that if the mission is successful then the granth will remain in one piece, otherwise it shall be separated. Satguru showed his favour and desire for the granth to remain complete by granting the mission success. That's the first key point. The second key point is that the sangat had collectively AGREED to abide by their agreement.

In the late 1800's a panthic committee was established to examine Dasam Bani again. Again, it was decided that all of it is Gurbani.

Around 1929, SGPC examined all of Dasam Granth Sahib ji, they again decided that all of Dasam Granth Sahib ji is Gurbani.

The opponents of Dasam bani on this forum think that they know more than all of these Gursikhs and Gurmukhs, including those who had first hand knowledge of exactly what constituted Dasam Bani such as Bhai Mani Singh ji. Even today, most of the panth's jathabandi's and all of the panths Sants accept Dasam Granth Sahib ji in its entirety.

-->"Kahaiy Nanak suno Santo katheo kath khanee." ang 918

-->sa(n)than kai suneeath prabh kee baath || Ang 820

I listen to God’s Teachings from the Saints.

--> for those still unsure of a sant's role in khalsa panth: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...21&hl=sants

So Sadh Sangat ji, you make up your own minds, but do remember that this bani and it's bir russ and shakti is what has kept us alive during the dark times of the mughal raj when we were almost wiped out.

It is Das's belief, that Waheguru is using the nindaks of Gurbani for the purpose of raising awareness about the Guru's Dasam Bani, so that we may prepare ourselves one again for yudh. Hard times are coming in the future, we will see them within our lifetimes. Baba Thakur Singh ji Bhindrenvale has told me this. Many other Mahapursh have been saying likewise.

To separate us from this shakti, the Indian govt. is attempting to create doubts in Dasam Granth Sahib ji, similar to how the British tried to separate us from Dasam Bani - it is because they fear for their evil raj. I have done paath of Chandi di Vaar many times, in my entire life I have not experienced such incredible josh (surge of energy) and bir russ (warrior spirit) as I did from doing paath of this bani. Their is no doubt that it is all Gurbani.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"but you may have noticed that Dasam Bani is required to make Amrit"

yes, i agree, but not dasam granth. you don't read all of dasam granth at amrit sanchar.

read what i wrote:

"there are baanis which are accepted as words written and uttered by the tenth nanak(nitnem), guru gobind singh ji, but gurgaddi and guriayee is given to gian guru sri guru granth sahib ji only. period."

In the end, many of the Guru's writings were lost when crossing a flooded river when leaving Anandpur. However, Bhai Mani Singh ji, a bhramgyani and scholar in the Guru's court, who wrote down Gurbani as the Guru dictated it to him, knew all which banis were Dasam Bani and which writings were not. He collected the various portions of Dasam Bani together into one granth. "

After crossing the river guru sahib spent how many years on this earth? guru sahib had the whole guru granth sahib written as he spoke it by memory after dhir mal refused to give original bir to guru sahib and the sikhs. by the way bhai mani singh wrote the guru garnth sahib as guru gobind singh dicatted it.

why would bhai mani singh need to collect baani when guru sahib would have dictated it by heart as he did with guru granth sahib ji. or are you like dhir mal who doubted guru sahib as antarjami and dared guru sahib to dictate it from memory?

its hard to just ignore these facts about how guru granth sahib was compiled and sealed by guru shaib himself.

"When Singhs got together a few decades later to decide if all of Dasam Bani should be kept together in one granth or not, they collectively agreed to base it on the success of a mission to kill Massa Rangar, who had occupied Darbar Sahib. While it seems like an arbitrary method, the sangat still did ardass to the Guru, that if the mission is successful then the granth will remain in one piece, otherwise it shall be separated. Satguru showed his favour and desire for the granth to remain complete by granting the mission success. That's the first key point. The second key point is that the sangat had collectively AGREED to abide by their agreement. "

so even back then they weren't sure if it was one granth? that seems odd as they were closer to guru sahib's time than any mahapurshes these days.

btw, im not an opponent of dasam baani, i'm a proponent of one guru, sri guru granth sahib ji. go look at what dasma granthsi are saying, calling dasam granth sri guru dasam granth.

the sad thing is we can't even have a dialogue on this matter without fear tactics and threats. not everyone is out to get you. there are actual people with genuine concerns.

peace.

[S1ngh]

Remember.. Those who stand against Dasam Granth (regardless of their attempt to be smart in live debates or on internet).. they stand AGAINST all panth and GURSIKHS including Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale.

Just give me any name of any GURSIKH who opposed or even SLIGHTLY gave a reason/hint that Dasam Granth is not GUR KI BANI (pls don't include self promoted professors like. darshan singh and ghagga etc).. Provide me with one name.. i doubts theres any... BUT there are several GURSIKHS who publicly said in past and in present that DG is our GURU SAHIB WRITTEN GRANTH.

Below is the huge myth that i want to make it clear...:

Nobody who believe in Dasam Granth stated anywhere (whether in news, internet etc) that DG is our 11th GURU GRANTH. I don't know why some ppl keep bringing up the issue saying "Oh Gurgadi is given Sri Guru Granth Sahib not DG." We are not arguing nor we disagree . Our panth believes in SGGS ji without any shak and willing to take jaban out of those who speak ill of SGGSJ. Why that point is toping in every debates, videos, forums.. maybe some time type of missionary propaganda.. that i don't know...

i mean if dasam granthis really want to have dasam granth as a parallel guru, then just add dasam granth to guru granth sahib and make a huge garnth with over 3000 angs, i guess that's what people are going for.

Veerjee, I think sometime its better not to get involve nor make statements as above IF the person isnt really aware of the issue

[SunSingh]

Hanji, that's an excellent point.

Dasam Granth Sahib ji's opponents keep avoiding points that others, as well as myself, have raised. ))))

They continually resort to straw man tactics :o ( it's a tactic cheap people use - it's when people defeat an argument that you didn't really make and then pretend to have defeated your argument).

They (eg. prof. darshan singh) refuse to engage in direct debate with vidvaans. :lol: He probably saw Kala Afghana getting shredded in his debate with the sants. None of the anti Dasam Granth Sahib people ever address the proffesser's continual avoidance of debate; however they have raised the point that more vichaar is needed several times :gg: Oh really? :rolleyes: