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What do you eat from the following choices?  

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  1. 1. What do you eat from the following choices?

    • I am a strict vegetarian
    • I still eat Meat, but trying to quit
    • I eat Meat and i love it
    • I only eat EGGS and or FISH
    • I only eat GELATIN/RENNET (animal fat in food products)

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I am also of the same view.I dont get the reason people give for being vegie(when they r not fully veggie). Few popular ones are: 1) Killing is cruel: then why do we kill plants and why dont we liv

I try to be as strict as possible, striving to be at the VEGAN level, but I guess Vegans don't even drink milk, or eat cheese, because COWS are pressured to give milk, and never give it on their own a

Even the yogurt with flavors, such as strabery flavor, or peach flavor have kosher gelatin in it. Make sure you read the labels carefully

Guest balwinderkaur
I can bet you if most of you Non- vegs had to kill your own meat, chop its head off, peel the skin off and see all that blood coming out and then wash your blood bathed clothes. you'll never eat meat again in your life. 


being a biology student having to cut animal species up, i can attest to this...chuck meat out matez, you dont even wanna go near your dinner...its THAT BAD. :umm:

*lighten up the atmosphere here...its abit tense* okie now carry on folks. :D

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Thanks for ur input .


Thanks brother, I saw the video and it was really helpful for me to undertsnad few of the things.But they skipped the whole shabad which I quoted above.They just used the first line and didn't bother to explain whole of it, which actually is my concern.Also, I didn't "modify" or "change" the meaning of bani by myself.You can get the exact same translation from any site.Also, if u know punjabi then u can understand the gurmukhi also.So the video didn't answer my all questions.I wud greatly appreciate if u can tell me ur perspective of the issues raised by my "MANMUKH" academic mind.And also there are certain thing on which Taksal do not agree with AKJ....whom do u consider "falwed"?

Satpreet ji:

You r right. We cannot live without eating but my question was why do we prefer killing plants? who knows what is sin?Thats what I feel the meaning of the gurbani from SGGS ji I quoted.

I am still looking forward for my answers.I hope I will get some answers from gurmukhs over here.


Sorry if i offended anybdy.

Bhul Chukk Maff.

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maybe we prefer plants over animals cuz i think someone said earlier that animals have feelings/thoughts/etc like humans do, whereas plants do not have any of those. Animals and ppl have brain/muscles/heart/lungs/all other organs of body....plants don't. Maybe because of these similarites with animals if we eat animals we are sort of like carnivores, cuz aren't ppl animals too? (is carnivores the right word?)

agian, i am MAHA MURAKH cuz i don't know what SGGS ji says about stuff so plz someone who has read all of SGGS ji provide answers. thanx.

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Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I am so sad.....I was strictly vegetarian for 20 years when I was in India....but I have eaten some egg-items in New Zealand...I know it is bad...now trying to avoid it....Guruji will help me....

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Do ardaas, everyone makes mistakes, Guru Ji forgives all.

Also I found this:

Author: Wannabe Singh

Date: 04-15-04 08:21

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji Kee Fateh

Sangat Jee, a friend of mine sent me this link. It shows you how water crystals change with vibrations of music, good thoughts, prayer and bad thoughts.

Since our bodies are made of more than 70% of water, the study shows how we think and eat pollutes our body. I believe that this also proves how reading Bani will make the stuff we drink and eat better for us, How reading Bani and doing simran will purify our body as well.

Being in Sadh Sangat the vibrations are thousand times more powerful than one person reading Bani by himself or herself. Hence, the importance of Sangat in Sikhi.

Thank you Waheguruji for giving us the Sikhi Marg.


Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

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Gurmat Rehat Maryada

The Points of Contention

Bhai Manmohan Singh Jee

A Few Controversial Points


The controversy in the Khalsa Panth over being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian arose due to the difference in the interpretation of the word Kuthha - one of the four primary taboos or Cardinal Sins for the Sikhs. Before going into the depth of what "Kuthha" really means, it is imperative to consider the real importance of these taboos in Sikhism. It is an undisputed fact that any Sikh who commits any one of these four taboos becomes an apostate. That means he is no longer a Sikh, i.e., he is automatically dc-linked and ex-communicated from the Khalsa Brotherhood, even though he may be considered a Sikh by society. As a natural corollary, he loses the Grace of the Satguru without which no progress can be made in achieving the Bliss of Naam-Simran. The four great taboos prescribed for the Sikhs are, thus, of fundamental importance.

Being of such fundamental importance, the four taboos cannot, obviously, be based upon any temporary contingency of the prevailing circumstances. They must have their own solid basis and foundation, and must be conducive to spiritual upliftment through Naam-Simran, which occupies the pivotal position in the whole edifice of Sikhism. Otherwise, they will lose their applicability in the changed circumstances, especially when their role in the spiritual progress is doubtful or even negative. It is explicit in Gurbani that the principles of Gurmat are u

nchangeable and of permanent standing:

Gurmat Mat Achal Hal Chalaey Na Sakey Koey. (pg. 548)

The Instruction of the Guru is Unshakable. None can change it.

Obviously, therefore, these four basic taboos formulated by the Tenth Guru must have their own solid base which would stand the stress of all times.

The word Kuthha is generally taken to mean Halaal meat i.e. "Meat obtained by the Muslim method of slaying the animal, slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal, while reciting religious formulae, the main object of slaughtering in this manner being a sacrifice to God to expiate the sins of the slaughterer and its flesh as food being only a secondary object..."12 The Jhatka method has been described as killing the animal "...with one stroke of the weapon without exciting fear glands secreting poisons into its bloodstream and without causing harmful psychic waves to emanate from the animal's mind..."12

The origin and basis of Halaal method of slaying animals by Muslims may have been sacrificial. However, by the time of the Sikh Gurus, it had just become a "Muslim method" without any consideration of its sacrificial origin. In fact, a separate class of professionals, called butchers, had emerged with the sole purpose of slaying the animals in this way. Thus, through the employment of butchers, the original idea of slaughtering the animal as a "sacrifice to God to expiate the sins of the slaughterer" had ceased to exist. The original practice had become professionalized and commercialized and remains so even now. So, according to the generally prevailing idea as advocated by many Sikh scholars, the main reason for imposing this taboo of not eating Halaal meat is not that it is sacrificial or even religious. Rather this taboo had been imposed primarily to liberate the Sikhs from mental slavery of the then rulers of the Muslim faith who had banned by law the slaying of animals by any method other than Halaal. If this interpretation is accepted, then the fo

llowing points arise:

With the changed times now, when there is no longer such coercion from any quarter, there should be no need for continuing this taboo in the list of the four taboos because the reason for the imposition of this taboo no longer exists.

It also implies that the four taboos which, have been declared hy Satguru himself as basic and of fundamental importance, may not necessarily be conducive to spiritual enhancement of the soul through Naam-Simran; their objective being merely to create a spirit of moral, and, according to some, physical strength to face the unjust and tyrannic rule of the then rulers. Obviously, this cannot be the situation as the main and the only objective of the Satguru was and is to implant the Holy Naam firmly in the minds of the Sikhs through Holy Amrit (Khande-Ki-Pahul). One cannot imagine the All knowing Satguru imposing a taboo of such basic importance which has no relationship with, or which does not help his Sikhs in the achievement of the Spiritual Bliss.

If we accept this position of a taboo being imposed only to serve the conditions prevailing at a particular time, then we provide a pretext to the so-called Modern Sikhs who consider that the keeping of Keshas is no longer necessary in the changed times. They also contend that Kirpan is now of little significance in this atomic age. They openly assert that religion must change with the changing times. The spirit of Sikhism, according to them, lies only within the Sikhs and it has nothing to do with the outward appearance or baanaa. They further contend that the then prevailing circumstances made the necessity of keeping Sikhs unique and easily distinguishable. In the changed circumstances that necessity no longer exists. Thus, accepting the above background of the Kuthha will lead to total destruction of the edifice of Sikhism.

Moreover, how would we classify fish? Is it Halaal or Jhatka?

Meat-eating Sikh brethren advocate that the only touchstone to be used in deciding whethe

r meat should be eaten or refrained from, is whether it creates trouble in the body and fills the mind with evil. If there is no such ill effect then there is no harm in eating it. In the support of this contention, they cite the following couplet from Gurbani:

Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar

Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar. (pg. 196)

0 Baba! All other foods (except the Naam)

create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

Evidently the foregoing couplet is a mis-quotation in this context because herein Guru Sahib is comparing all material foods with the Divine Food (i.e. Naam-Simran) and is decrying the former. The word HORE is very crucial in this couplet. It does not mean ANY food but any OTHER food, i.e., any food other than NAAM. In the absence of the Divine Food (Naam), all material foods will sicken the body as well as the soul. The very idea of eating meat fills the mind with evil making it aggressive and a partner in taking the life of an innocent creature. For this very reason, almost all of the well-known spiritually enlightened Gursikhs of the past and present have been and are shunning meat and allied non-vegetarian foods. Such foods are not conducive to spiritual development and Naam-Simran and, therefore, the all-knowing Satguuu could not approve them.

In two Hukam Naamaas of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib (Appendix C), there are clear cut instructions prohibiting the eating of meat, fish, etc. The actual words used are "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." When Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Sikhs from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, writes in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordere

d not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."13

What clear cut evidence against eating flesh and drinking wine in Sikhism!

viii. Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh ii's "UPDESH" to Bhai Daya Singh ji which is mentioned in "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH", and also found written in some old handwritten volumes of Sri Guru Granth Sahib:

"One who does not:


Commit adultery

Slander anyone


Eat meat or drink wine

will be liberated in this very life (i.e. Jeewan Mukt)".14

It is also asserted that bravery is connected with eating animal flesh. The assertion is baseless. In fact, bravery is not connected with brute body force. Real bravery comes out of the spirit of sacrifice for the Truth and arises from the state of mind. The very prevalent words Charhdi Kala among the Sikhs refer to the Charhdi Kala of the spirit. The Sikh history is full of such instances where Sikhs who were hungry for days together defeated the tyrant Mughal forces whose meat eating habits were legendary.

There is no difference m either taste or nutritive content of meat obtained through Jhatka or Halaal methods. Meat remains meat, whatever may be the method of slaying the animal. It is a mockery of the august and everlasting holy fundamental principles of Gurmat to attach such a fundamental importance to meat obtained from a particular method of slaying the animal, that its eating by a Sikh makes him an apostate, and that obtained from another method of slaying becomes fully acceptable. Either meat is allowed or is prohibited totally. There can be no mid-way. It is rather strange that many 'modern' and 'intellectual' Sikhs, who are often questioning the rationale of such edicts as keeping of Kirpan or Keshas and even the particular type of Kachhehra, generally do not

question the rationale of Jhatka and Halaal distinction in respect of meat. Obviously, it is the generally preferred taste of the tongue that keeps them mum on this issue.

These are only a few of the inconsistencies and contradictions in accepting the interpretation of Kuthha to mean Halaal type of meat.

Now let us consider as to what is the true meaning of the word Kuthha. EtymologicalIy, the word "Kuthha" (killed) is a past participle which has been derived from the root "Kohna" which means to slay or kill. This word does not mean to slay slowly or according to the Muslim method. In fact, to my knowledge, this word has never been used in the Muslim literature or in their general language to refer to "Halaal" meat. There are a number of similarly derived words, e.g. "Muthha," "Dhatthha," etc. Thus, the word "Kuthha" literally means meat obtained by killing animals with any sharp weapon irrespective of whether any holy hymns are read at that time or not. In fact, reading of any holy hymns on this most cruel and heartless moment, is itself a highly sacrilegious act. For instance, if one accepts a bribe or commits a theft while reciting holy hymns and then claims that because of his having read holy hymns during that act it no longer remains a crime, is only befooling himself.

Now consider this from another angle. For Halaal meat, the animal is killed while reciting Qalima - the holy Mantra of the Muslims praising God in Arabic language. For obtaining Jhatka meat, they say Sat Sri Akal, which is also praise of God but in Punjabi language. Meat obtained while reciting praise of God in Arabic language is Halaal (sacred) for a Muslim and is Haraam (unsacred) for a Sikh. Likewise meat obtained while reciting praise of God in Punjabi language is Halaal (sacred) for a Sikh and Haraam (unsacred) for a Muslim. By implication, meat being the common factor in both cases, Qalima is Haraam for a Sikh and Sat Sri Akal is Haraam for a Muslim. If both Qalima and Sat Sri Akal are praises of God in different

languages, neither of them is Haraam. In fact, Haraam is the selfish trend of the mind of the meat eaters.

S. Kapur Singh rightly points out "Sikhism is not a religion of confusion and tomfoolery.'115 The Sikh Way of Life is based upon the highest principle of Divinity -with the ultimate goal of merging one's soul (Atma) with the Ultimate Soul (Param-Atma).

In Gurbani the word "Kuthha" as well as "Kohna" have been used at a number of places in this sense:

Paap Karendar Sarpar Muthey.

Ajraeel Pharrey Phar KUTHHEY. (pg. 1019)

The sinner will certainly be ruined or destroyed.

The angel of death will seize and kill them.

(Here the word "kuthhey" means simply killing, not killing by Halaal)

Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani

Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee. (pg. 201)

He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.

Abhakhya Ka KUIHHA Bakra Khanaa

Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa. (pg. 472)

They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the Hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.

The supporters of the word Kuthha to mean Halaal meat very often bank upon the above cited couplet to support their contention. They ascribe it to mean the meat obtained by slaying goats while uttering Qalima, which is the Muslim way of slaughtering animals. If the word Kutliha were to mean Halaal meat, the use of the word abhakhya is superfluous. The sentence should have been simply Kuthha Khaanaa to mean the eating of the Halaal meat. The very fact that the word Kuthha has been qualified with the adjective abhakhya kaa means that Kuthha refers to simple meat of the killed animal, irrespective of the method of slaying the animal; and while qualifying meat to mean Halaal, the words abhakhya kaa had to be particularly prefixed to convey that sense. Almost all the renowned commentators and translators of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, e.g., Bhai

Sahib Vir Singh, Professor Sahib Singh, S. Manmohan Singh, etc., have interpreted this couplet in this way.

It is thus clear that the word Kuthha means simply meat of the killed animal and does not go into the detail of how the animal is killed. Like so many other adulterations committed by the anti-Sikhs in Gurmat Rahit Maryada, this interpretation of the word Kuthha to mean Halaal meat has also been initiated and popularized by those very anti­Sikhs, in their efforts to destroy the roots of the new faith in order to decrease its efficacy and create doubts and dissensions in the Panth. Our brothers have unconsciously fallen in their trap.

The only hymn in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is specifically cited in support of eating meat is the hymn of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dcv Ji in the // of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90 beginning with the couplet:

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.

Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.

Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey

Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat. He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not.

A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. He has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words

, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.

One very well known Sikh writer, in his book on Sri Guru Nanak Dcv Ji's life16, while claiming that the above hymn supports meat eating, recommends that those Sikhs who seek spiritual bliss through Naam Simran should shun it! Well, devoid of Naam Slmran Sikhism is reduced to naught.

At this point it would be worth mentioning two well known anecdotes from the life of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this respect:

During his visit to Lahore, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji happened to stay in the neighborhood of a big slaughter house. In the ambrosial hours of the early morning, he heard loud shrills and cries of the animals being butchered there. Then, in the daytime, he saw the population addicted to vices connected with meat, wine and women. He was so moved by this sight that he exclaimed: Lahore shahar zahar kahar sawa pahar. (pg. 1412)

God's curse is upon the city of Lahore for a quarter of the day.

Duni Chand was holding a grand annual feast to feed the Brahmins in celebration of Saraadh ceremony for the peace of his departed father's soul. Sri Guru Nanak Dcv Ji told him that his father had taken the body of a wolf and was starving on the nearby river bank at tha

t time. Duni Chand immediately went there and saw the starving wolf. On seeing his son, the wolf died and thus spoke to him from his Astral or luminous body:

"In human body when I was nearing death, I smelt the flavor of meat being cooked in the neighboring house and felt an ardent desire for it. I died in the same state of mind. That is why I was given the body of a wolf so that I could fulfill my last desire in human life."17

Gurbani also says:

Jit Laago Man Baasna, Ant Saaee PragtaanL (pg. 267)

The desire to which the mind is attached, becomes manifest in the end.

This brings out clearly the thinking of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dcv Ji in this respect.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating of animal flesh in clearcut and unambiguous language in a number of places:

Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar ThaapohAdharam Kaho Kat Bhai.

Aapas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee. (pg. 1103)

You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey.

Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudal Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey. (pg. 1350)

Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e., life?)

Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.

Aapaa Dekh Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey. (pg. 1375)

You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.

Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal (pg. 1375)

Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

Kabir Bhaang, Machhli Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.


h, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey. (pg. 1376)

Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.

Kabir Khoob Khaana Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon.

Heraa Rotee Kaamey Galaa Kataavey Kon. (pg. 1374)

Blessed is the simple food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?

It is thus clear from the foregoing that the word Kuthha used in the Sikh Code of Conduct does not refer to Halaal or sacrificial meat at all' but refers to meat and allied products as a whole. It means simply to slay or cut the animal -whatever may be the method used for the purpose. The use of the word in the same sense at a number of places in Gurbani brings out this point beyond any shadow of a doubt. Accordingly, eating flesh in general (and not only Halaal) is totally prohibited for the Sikhs and is one of the four Cardinal Sins enunciated in the Sikh Code of Conduct.

It is a great travesty of the factual position to assert that, "In the Sikh Doctrine, therefore, there is no religious injunction for or against meat eating; it is a matter of individual choice and discretion, a most sensible principle."18

All the Rahits (Do's) and Kurahits (Don'ts or taboos) are of fundamental importance in Sikhism. These are a pre-condition for one's being accepted for baptism or taking of Amrit which means nothing but Naam:

Amrit Naam Parmesar Tera Jo Simray So Jeevey. (pg. 616)

O God; Amrit is nothing but your Naam and he alone lives who meditates or contemplates on it.

Amrit Har Har Naam Hay Meri Jindareeay

Ainrit Gunnat Paaey Ram. (pg. 538)

The Naam Divine is Amrit; and is obtained through the Guru's Instruction.

This very fact shows that all these commandments have definite spiritual import and thus are of intrinsic value. None of these, therefore, can be left to an individual's discretion.

Besides propagating this misinterpretation of the word Ku

thha and encouraging the Sikhs in general to eat meat, the same people have gone to the extent of giving the very respectable name of Mahaan Prasad to this absolutely proscribed and profane food. This has been done to mislead the general unsuspecting, simple and innocent Sikh masses in a very subtle way. It is a pity that many of us have fallen prey to this mischievous game, and have even started propagating this misinterpretation.

In the old Sikh literature, the word Mahaan Prasad has been used to denote the most sacred and sanctified food which is now commonly known as Karrah Prasad. Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji has used this terminology a number of times in his works 19, and all the commentators of his works, including those of Shromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (S.G.P.C.), have accepted this interpretation. Karrah Prasad has a very sacred and distinct place in Sikh tradition and practice, and has, therefore, been very aptly and correctly referred to as Mahaan Prasad.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fath

I was reading this controversial topic whether eating meat is pemitted in gursikhi? I became vegetarian a few months ago but it was not because that I want to be a better sikh but I wanted to have a peaceful soul. Eating or not eating meat is a very personalized thing. If you feel from your conscious that it is not good to eat meat, to kill innocent animals just for the taste, you cannot eat meat. But if you are looking for some reasons that whether it is mentioned somewhere in gurbani that eating meat is permitted or not, it means you are not determined from your side.

Bhul chuk maaf

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You seems to be busy as u didn't reply my query.Also, I didn't have any non-veg thing since I promised u.God is helping me in keeping my promise.But I want to continue this discussion.I request u to answer me by urself (not by posting links), as you seems to be fully convinced tht sikhi preaches non-vegi and its very practicle.

Thnx a lot for continuing discussion with me.I really appreciate that.

Still learning....

--Balwinder Singh

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