Inappropriate Vaja Tunes

[Vahejeo]

I think that the bottom line should be that whatever style/tune of Kirtan joins as with Guru Sahib, Gurbani, than that is valid. The fact is that many youth and adults are going away from Sikhi. The life blood of a Sikh is Gurbani, so whatever joins us with Guru Sahib is valid and no one should criticize it. I know many youth, including myself, who would never listen to Kirtan if it was done only in normal raagi style. But for example, AKJ style Kirtan has affected so many people and has gotten them to listen to Kirtan on a daily basis and even learn Kirtan because of it, especially youth who normally would not listen to Kirtan.

So I think whatever style of Kirtan joins you to GurShabad, be it Raag or other, then it is all valid. What right does anyone have to criticize this?

[Akritghan]

I think that the bottom line should be that whatever style/tune of Kirtan joins as with Guru Sahib, Gurbani, than that is valid. The fact is that many youth and adults are going away from Sikhi. The life blood of a Sikh is Gurbani, so whatever joins us with Guru Sahib is valid and no one should criticize it. I know many youth, including myself, who would never listen to Kirtan if it was done only in normal raagi style. But for example, AKJ style Kirtan has affected so many people and has gotten them to listen to Kirtan on a daily basis and even learn Kirtan because of it, especially youth who normally would not listen to Kirtan.

So I think whatever style of Kirtan joins you to GurShabad, be it Raag or other, then it is all valid. What right does anyone have to criticize this?

yes but ALL Gurbaanee is hukam for us....so its alright to ignore Maharaj's hukam??....you can only join with Guroo Sahib when u follow ALL OF his Hukam....and if people dont want to listen to raag kirtan then the fault is not in the raagi but in the person....teekya i agree that maybe when u get into sikhi alot of the youth listen to kirtan that is non-raag...but if u really wanna progress in ur sikhi then ull do ur ATMOST to follow ALL of Guroo Maharaj's Hukam...

does anyone disagree that Raag is not Hukam?cos ALL of Gurbaanee is Hukam....sikhi aint pick and mix.....for e.g. yeah i will keep my kes but ill bleach it;thats not removing kes is it?(just an example)

im not saying that raag is more mahaan then the Sabad but if Maharaj wants us to sing gagan dhumama baajaooo in raag maroo instead of simple tune then why do we ignore Maharaj??

[chatanga]

kirtan by akj is a starter, a very good starter, especially the naam simran they do. But raag kirtan is a higher form of kirtan than the akj style, so its a kinda progression in kirtan. my progression to raag kirtan was :

1. qawwali

2. akj-style

3.raag kirtan.

now i listen to raag kirtan, the previous 2 play no part, or very little part, in my life. I feel that i have progressed to the highest form of kirtan, the kirtan that Guru Ji actually gave to us himself.

Guru Ji has given us the shabd, raag and the saaj. Guru has made kirtan perfect by doing this.

Today at the Gurdwara the kirtani started by playing Ghol Ghumayee Laalna in Raag Tukhari. It was amazing to sit in sangat and sing to this. I hope that you all have the Bhaag to listen to Raag Kirtan.

[Akritghan]

kirtan by akj is a starter, a very good starter, especially the naam simran they do. But raag kirtan is a higher form of kirtan than the akj style, so its a kinda progression in kirtan. my progression to raag kirtan was :

1. qawwali

2. akj-style

3.raag kirtan.

now i listen to raag kirtan, the previous 2 play no part, or very little part, in my life. I feel that i have progressed to the highest form of kirtan, the kirtan that Guru Ji actually gave to us himself.

Guru Ji has given us the shabd, raag and the saaj. Guru has made kirtan perfect by doing this.

Today at the Gurdwara the kirtani started by playing Ghol Ghumayee Laalna in Raag Tukhari. It was amazing to sit in sangat and sing to this. I hope that you all have the Bhaag to listen to Raag Kirtan.

aaahhhh i wish i could have listened

[Vahejeo]

When someone mentions the word Raag, the first thing that comes to mind is really really slow Kirtan. Not there is anything wrong with slow Kirtan. But if someone were to play the same tune faster and with Simran, how does that make it wrong? It doesn't. It seems that people who listen to "Raag Only" Raagi Kirtan seem to have this idea that they are elite and AKJ style or any other style is somehow inferior. Whatever preference someone has to what the Kirtan style they listen to it is all fine, we have NO RIGHT to question it or criticize it.

I don't believe doing any certain style of Kirtan is Hukam of Guru Sahib. As long as Hari Jas is sung, it is all good.

[Veerji]

Vaaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsaa Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

I think filmy tunes are more of an issue for people who actually listen or used to listen to songs and watch bollywood movies. Then if someone does a shabad on those tunes those people might remember the film or song associated with the tune. I myself never listen to these songs or watch those films so it doesn't affect me.

I recently attended a Gurmat Sangeet Workshop by Bhai Kultar Singh ji and one thing he talked about was

how the tune of a shabad shouldn't be distracting from the actual Gurbanee. Thats the issue with a lot of these tunes. The Shabad should always be above the sangeet.

Thinking positively, I've recently noticed an increase in keertanis singing in raags at akhand kirtan smagams. Perhaps its because they're tired of people who think akj singhs don't know raags. Its also great to see more youth taking interest in tanti saaj.

I'm also trying to learn raags and I can say it feels great when you sing a shabad in the actual raag it was composed in. =)

[ghorandhar]

When someone mentions the word Raag, the first thing that comes to mind is really really slow Kirtan. Not there is anything wrong with slow Kirtan. But if someone were to play the same tune faster and with Simran, how does that make it wrong? It doesn't. It seems that people who listen to "Raag Only" Raagi Kirtan seem to have this idea that they are elite and AKJ style or any other style is somehow inferior. Whatever preference someone has to what the Kirtan style they listen to it is all fine, we have NO RIGHT to question it or criticize it.

I don't believe doing any certain style of Kirtan is Hukam of Guru Sahib. As long as Hari Jas is sung, it is all good.

Vahejeo I disagree with what you are saying. I agree it should not be forgotten that although kirtan in non raag is still hari jas, however I dont understand how you can say a particular style of kirtan is not hukam of guru sahib. I think nearly 90% of bani is in raags, the whole structure of the Guru granth Sahib jee is based on the raags (take the raags out and there is no structure) and the Raag mala is the first documentation of gurmat sangeet giving us important info on the thaat etc. Why would guru jee add the raag before every shabad if there Was no need for it? Just as the hukam of guru maharaj is contained in the shabab (for example naam japna) the hukam of how to sing the shabad is contained by writing the raag. Guru jees hukam of doing kirtan in raags goes further by even telling us the ghar which kirtan should be performed in. (why add the raag and ghar?) So how can we ignore this hukam?

In gurbani there are alot of shabads telling us about the importance of raags:

Raga vich Sri raag hai, jih sach dhari piyar. Ang 83

Har utam har prabh gavai, kar naad bilawal raag. ang 849

Malar seetal raag hai, har diyai shant hoe. Ang 1283

Dhan soo raag sorangerh, alaapat sabh tikh jai. Ang 958

Can you imagine someone singing the shabad which says to do kirtan in raag bilawal and its not being done, or they are singing that malaar is a peaceful raag, yet they are singing something else. There are other shabads which give us the upma of these raags.

Further in the Dasam granth and Sarbloh granth we see many raags being written by Guru Gobind Singh jee, some bidwan like Bhai Balbir Singh jee even say Guru Gobind Singh jee knew over 1000 raags. In the Dasam granth you also have shabads which tell you the style of raag which will be sung. for example, khyal patshahi dasmi, mittar piyari noo har mooreeda da khena. Guru jee has told us that khyal should be sung.

I also dont understand how you can say that raags are slow. I assume you mean drupad kirtan by this. I think its really hard to find drupad kirtan and most kirtani dont know how do kirtan in these taals. alot of kirtani like Gurmeet Singh Shaant for example do alot of khyal kirtan and in Drut laih rather than drupad which is in vilampat. Drut laih is really fast and when raagis do kirtan in this speed people start complaining they cant understand what they are saying.

According to gurmat sangeet you cant put simran into the shabad. There is no maryada for this and no puratan kirtani will do this or were taught this. There are shabads which would alllow you to do simran for example kaval nain madaran bhen (this shabad has waheguru written in it) however, you will not find any kirtani or any puratan maryada which allows this. The panthic sikh rehit maryada only allows kirtan in raag and does not say you can do kirtan and add in Waheguru. No one is saying you cant do waheguru simran on its own, but maryada is maryada and puratan kirtanis say that Waheguru simran was never added into shabads, this new form of kirtan started during the 1940s. No one is allowed to add Waheguru simran at harmander sahib either, this is not something new which has been created either. At harmander Sahib they even dont allow you do the sargam.

[chatanga]

i only listen to raag personally as much as poss. i dont consider myself elitist, but just enjoying the perfect methdd of kirtan that Guru Ji worked for. Remember that the saajs that we have were created by Guru themselves, and some raags are the creation of Guru Ji as well.

If vahejeo thinks that cos i (or anyone into raag) fall at the feet of Guru Ji's krit and His perfect kirtan prampara, and say that Guru's kirtan is perfect, it somehow makes me elitist, then im happy to be acknowledged as such.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

wjkk wjkf ji

i personally listen to any raag/non raag/western style of gurbani, its guru jis word end of the day and as long as it is touching chords somewhere, for me the purpose is achieved i.e to be in touch with bani and nothing else bai rabb da naam KOI v suna deve dil khush ho jaanda!

bhul chukk maaf

[Akaali]

ghorandhar jeeo,

I agree with everything you've said, one thing I wanted to add is that the way raags in general are sung have changed/developed since the times of guru sahibaans, even in Indian shastari sangeet the raag system has changed/developed, the elitist don't like the infiltration of the vaja by the british in their sangeet either because the original way was through tanti saaz, and nowadays shastri sangeet in India is not very common per the masses, and its no different in Sikhi today either.

But going back to the development of the raag system, same way with raags in SGGSJ the way of singing them in their specified raag has been slightly modified because the parampara has not been documented in writing, at the same time it can't really be put on paper as its music, and must be taught/passed down from generation to generation, similar to seena baseena rehat that has been passed down like it was to Bhai Avtaar Singh jee, who was born in 1925 where his father, Bhai Sahib Jwala Singh Ji was an accomplished Ragi, who imparted his knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet to Bhai Sahib Avtar Singh Ji and his older brother Bhai Sahib Gurcharan Singh Ji, who together were the eleventh generation exponents of gurbani keertan as per maryada from the time of our guru sahibaans.

So going back to the topic, I've seen there are two points of discussions, some feel as though its not important to sing in raag because you should connect with the bani being sung in keertan, and some would argue that saying, the correct way of connecting to gurbani in keertan should be through the correct way of singing the shabad.

Lets look at it this way, why is there a need to do santhya? To learn the correct way of pronouncing gurbani and understanding where to pause and where not to pause, which is the primary reason many mispronounce gurbani, the same goes for singing keertan, there's a a correct way of performing keertan, I don't always do keertan in raag or nidharat raag for that matter, but I've been told that there's a raag for almost every tune. The point is, if there's a correct way of reciting gurbani, there has to be a correct way of singing keertan. Today, we pick and choose what we want to beleive maybe that's where the problem is.