New Nirmala Website

[valli singh]

Brother Matheen ji,

I know that Bhai Nand Lal took amrit later in life, my point was that while he was sehajdhari he held a high eminence in Guruji's court.

It is a well known fact that maste fakir Baba Biram Das Udasi who was Guru Gobind Singh's blood relative and who didn't keep his kesh was famously blessed with full darshan of Dashmesh Pitaji.

You are right, we have gone off topic.

[UKGupt Kaur]

UK Gupt Kaur

You are obviously a self-righteous Neo-Sikh khalistani ignoramous

possessing NO knowledge of Purataan Sikh history prior to the arrival of the British and the SGPC.

First of all cows are sacred in Indian culture and Sikh Philosphy because the cow is the highest birth in lakh chaurasi, and thus the transmigratory chain can be seen as an evolutionary process extending from non-sentient mineral lifeforms and sentient insectoids and rising through the reptilian and mamalian species (such as the cow) before progressing into the human form.

This is why the consumption of beef is considered such a sin, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh ji were VERY vocal about enforcing the death penalty upon the killers of cows, and they even refered to themselves many times as being 'Gopal' or the protectors of cows. In Khalsa Raj under Maharaja Ranjit Singh it was also a hanging offense to kill cows, Sri Baba Sahib Singh Bedi Maharaj exterminated whole villages of beef-eaters simply for killing cows. Are these Mahapurukhs attached to bipran ki reet as you so eloquently put it?

Sant Darbara Singh was a maste fakir and pooran brahmgyani who had darshan of Dashmesh Pita, what do you know of that Gurmat?

Santji forcibly shut down many meat production plants in Punjab and rescued the cows that is upholding God's Dharam, at Lopon they are respected and not put under any strain, if they were given away how would their safety be ensured.

What pill are you on? what is a khalistani? What bull are you coming out with?

There is no such thing as the cow being sacred or highest form before mankind. I dont know which SGGSJ you have been getting your Gian from but it aint the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we all read from. .

Your saint is sure teaching you bipran ke reet no doubt about that.

Your stories about Guru ji enforcing death penalties is utter rubish and made up by most likely brahmins who want to distort Sikh history.

[Bijla Singh]

Big5abi, your post has some errors. If Bhai Daya Singh was the first jathedar then why did the later jathedars start to not keep kesh and abandoned kakkars? Then you say this group had started from the 6th Guru’s time which goes against Bhai Daya Singh Ji being the first jathedar. Also, there is no historical proof of that. Guru Sahib wore two kirpans but it is funny how a group allegedly started from his bachan considers kirpan optional let alone wearing just one. Further, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabad’s successor was Bhai Maharaj Singh and both were strict Amritdharis. If there was another Baba Bir Singh Naurangabad then provide some info.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji himself gave the sadhu gaddi of the Udasi's to Baba Sri Chand ji, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji sat his own son, Baba Gurditta on the Udasi gaddi, Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj left Anandpur Sahib in the charge of the Udasis, the Udasis have done more missionary work of spreading Sikhism all over India than the SGPC could do in 7 lifetimes, they even spread Guru Nanak's wisdom as far as Russia!!

Baba Sri Chand started wearing udasi clothes (like Guru Sahib) thinking that Guru Sahib would be pleased and guruship would go to him. When this didn’t happen, he went away from Sikhi. Upon meeting Guru Hargobind Ji, he admitted that he didn’t deserve to be the Guru. He acknowledged Sikhi and turned the udasi group over to Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib gave his son who became the next successor of udasis. This goes to show that udasis became part of the Panth and started following rehat when they acknowledged true Guruship. It is foolish to assume that Baba Gurditta Ji took off his turban and let his hair flow freely when he became leader of udasi group. In fact, it was the opposite of that.

You are obviously a self-righteous Neo-Sikh khalistani ignoramous

possessing NO knowledge of Purataan Sikh history prior to the arrival of the British and the SGPC.

I suggest you leave Khalistan out of it as it has nothing to do with the topic. Puratan Sikh history is not all about santanism.

This is why the consumption of beef is considered such a sin, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh ji were VERY vocal about enforcing the death penalty upon the killers of cows, and they even refered to themselves many times as being 'Gopal' or the protectors of cows.

Could you provide any reference where Guru Sahib specifically forbade killing of a cow? In Gurbani killing of any animal is wrong and cow has no special place. Word Gopal doesn’t mean protector of cow but one who sustains the creation or a great king.

In Khalsa Raj under Maharaja Ranjit Singh it was also a hanging offense to kill cows

There was no death sentence during his reign. Prohibition of killing of a cow might be in respect to hindus but not because of its sacredness.

Two of them – Bhai Nand Lal and Bhai Kanhaiya – enjoyed great esteem. Bhai Nand Lal a great Persian scholar and poet, maintained at Anandpur a Langar or refectory open to visitors all the twenty four hours. Bhai Kanhaiya won the Guru’s admiration and is remembered in the Sikh tradition to this day for the devotion with which he served the wounded in battle, making no distinction between friend and foe.

According to Bhatt Vahis, both took charan amrit when they came to Guru Sahib. Bhai Nand Lal took charan amrit from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Bhai Kanheyea Ji took it from Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. Later both took Khanday Da Amrit. No historical source states that both were monay. You are confusing sehajdhari with mona.

In the early part of the eighteenth century when Sikhs suffered fierce persecution and when to be a Keshadhari, that is to bear Kesh or long hair, was to invite sure death, the Sahajdharis looked after their places of worship and protected the households and the kith and kin of those driven to seek safety in hill and jungle.

False. Sehajdharis kept hair and rehat but they were from non-Sikh families. Those who cut their hair were not considered sehajdharis. Udasis took over Gurdwaras. When Khalsa rose to power, Gurdwaras were repaired and rebuilt which proves that Gurdwaras were not taken care of. Sardar Baghel Singh did seva of Delhi Gurdwaras.

Some even defied the persecutors and courted martyrdom as did the teenaged Haqiqat Rai, who was beheaded in public for his refusal to disown his Sikh belief and accept Islam.

His name was Bhai Hakikat Singh whose families were close to Guru Sahib and Baba Banda Singh was his relative http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=29324&hl=

A leading Sahajdhari Sikh of that time was Kaura Mall, a minister to the Mughal governor of Lahore, Muin ul Mulk (1748-53), who helped the Sikhs in diverse ways in those days of severe trial.

Sehajdhari doesn’t make him a mona unless you have some credible proof. He was a hindu who became sehajdhari. He couldn’t take Amrit but did seva of the panth.

Des Raj of this period who was entrusted by the Khalsa with the task of having reconstructed the Harimandir, demolished by the Afghan invader Ahmed Shah Durrani, in 1762

I suggest you read Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia by Dr. Ganda Singh. Again, sehajdhari doesn’t mean a mona like these days.

Dina Nath was Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s finance minister.

Bhai Vasti Ram, a learned man well versed in Sikh Scripture, enjoyed considerable influence at the court.

Pandit Dina Nath was a hindu and so were others. A Sikh didn’t hold any high position because many considered the true successor of kingdom Khalsa instead of Price Kharak Singh.

Regarding Hukamnamas I have already written a reply - http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=384710

With all the above references it is pretty clear that the word Khalsa has been used for Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs who believe in Sikh philosophy, follow the ten Gurus, and SGGS.

Word Khalsa is used for Amritdhari rehatvaan gursikh by Guru Sahib. Although it has many meanings but it is not used for Hindus, Muslims and others. Only a gursikh is true roop of Guru Sahib and only he/she is a Khalsa.

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh i will be very short since my previous messages are not being approved in this thread, i cannot be arsed replying long post knowning my message may not show up on here.

Here is what bhai kahn singh ji nabha has to say in definition of sehajdhari:

ਸਹਜਧਾਰੀ

ਵਿ- ਸਹਜ (ਗਾਨ) ਧਾਰਣ ਵਾਲਾ. ਵਿਚਾਰਵਾਨ। ੨. ਸੁਖਾਲੀ ਧਾਰਣਾ ਵਾਲਾ. ਸੌਖੀ ਰੀਤਿ ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ੩. ਸੰਗਾ- ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਅੰਗ, ਜੋ ਖੰਡੇ ਦਾ ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਕੱਛ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਦੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਖਦਾ, ਪਰ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਬਿਨਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੋਰ ਧਰਮਪੁਸਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੰਨਦਾ. *

ਸਹਜਧਾਰੀ

. * ਪੰਜਾਬ ਅਤੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਹਜਧਾਰੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਗਿਨਤੀ ਦੇ ਹਨ. ਾਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਦੇ ਸਹਜਧਾਰੀ ਵਡੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੱਧਾਵਾਨ ਹਨ, ਜੋ ਸਿੰਘ, ਸਹਜਧਾਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਰਤ ਦੀ ਨਿਗਾਹ ਨਾਲ ਵੇਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਸਿੱਖ ਧਰਮ ਤੋਂ ਆਣ ਹਨ

I am sure you going to reject his interpretation. But you don't have any problem using his same mahan kosh to prove rest of your beliefs. In academia, this type of behavior its called conveniently selectively choosing whatever fits in your mindset, and rest rejects them outright.

Also respond to your query below

I assume you have read Piara Singh Padam’s book and it would be much better if you could write some information from his book i.e. specifically stating that Guru Sahib made an exception to become Amritdharis. Provide a direct quote or maybe translate few paragraphs because many may not have this book. Guru Sahib Himself knew Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian and many Sikhs at the time were also affluent in these languages then why didn’t any one of them pass on this education? Besides, Sanskrit doesn’t hold much importance in Gurmat. Then what was the aim behind sending Sikhs to learn Sanskrit? Also, when exactly (what year) do you think Guru Sahib sent the Sikhs and when did they return? I have not been able to find much information on their role in Sikh history and no information about making kakkars exceptions. So your answers might help.

I checked Mahan Kosh and according to it Guru Sahib sent five Sikhs (all Amritdharis) to kanshi in disguise but it makes no mention of making kakkars exceptions. In fact, all Sikhs had “Singh” as last name. Also, when Nirmalas established their “Akhara” specific guidelines were set according to which taking Amrit and keeping Kakkars were made mandatory and langar bibek (AKJ type) was also practiced. How accurate is this information? Any reference would be great. Keep in mind that I am not discussing what Nirmalas do is right or wrong or whether exception to kakkars is allowed but asking for references

Piara Singh Padam mentions 5 nirmale singhs were blessed by sri guru gobind singh ji before amrit sanchar because of date - 1686. Nirmala order was itself, established by Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the 1690s, on the banks of the river Yamuna, at Sri Paonta Sahib.

After a Brahmin scholar had refused to teach Sanskrit to the Sikhs on the premise that they were low caste and wore the uniform of warriors, the Tenth Master, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji sent five Singhs, by the names of Baba Karam Singh, Baba Vir Singh, Baba Ganda Singh, Baba Saina Singh and Baba Ram Singh, to the city of Benares to learn the classical Indian language of Sanskrit. Guru Maharaaj ordered them to wear "Sadhu'an da Bana" or "the uniform of holy men". This type of clothing is referred to as "Gatee" in Punjabi, Now based on oral traditions, 5 singhs were given charan amrit by guru maharaj ji himself but when they came back- they didn't took khanda da amrit nor guru gobind singh ji asked for them to take khanda da amrit(some nirmala sources itself say they did) but in anycase as time went by in essence most of them took khanda da amrit, but as far as issue of keeping kara, kachera, kirpan, kanga, because of the bhekh some do and some don't wear them after since they abide by a sattvagun maryada - check bhai dya singh ji rehitnama for specific lifestyle for satoguni khalsa, which means sadhna and study...in the same way , Guru Maharaj himself appeared in nirbaan sadhu bhekh*. Yet, their prachaar is always for the propogation of the Khalsa, and the Nirmalay historically to this day consider themselves the dual partner of the Sant Khalsa in the parchar, hence Nirmalay are always keshdhari (with the odd exception every now and then). Look at Sant Attar Singh he is free from 4 kakari rehit in his photos. Why? He wasn't going to be fighting anyone. If you're grihasthi and not a Nirmala, then thats a different issue. Whatever the source of it, the Bhai Dya Singh rehitnama epitomises this as a Khalsa rehit with one for grihasthis, one for Nihangs, one for Nirmalay-satoguni written by bhai dya singh ji one of panj pyara himself.

*source-

Sri Gur Sobha' states Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj appeared in numerous roops while at Sri Anandpur Sahib including 'nirbaan roop'. This means the roop of a sadhu - nirbaan is a term used by Udasis also. interestingly, early accounts of the Nirmalay include Guru Maharaj in nirbaan roop and on a seperate occasion gifting the roop to the sevadar with the instruction to study with those who have already learned

Now your question regarding why need to sent them to baneras or need to study sanskrit?

Here is quote from nirmala himself who spents years learning.

you first point is simply incorrect. You MUST know your basic history first. Bhai Gurdas under Guru Arjun Dev's directive studied in Kashi - his vaaran and kabits are testimony to that . He was a bhalla khatri. The Guru's themselves we're masters of sanskrit (hence chaubis avatar and chandi di vaar in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib!) and yet their bans was khatri suryabans. Even a child learns that the linguistic mix of Guru Granth Sahib includes tatsam and tatbhav sanskrit terms. Therefore, sanskrit learning WAS available to non-Brahmins. Guru Maharaj himself directed his Sikhs to train in sanskrit and translate. This was occuring at Paonta Sahib and led to the Vidyasaagar granth (see Surajprakash) in which were contained translations of the Upanishads, Mahabharat, Sursaagar, etc by the kavis at his darbar along with some gursikhs later on after the first nirmalay returned so that sikhs of future generation don't have to go to bhramins and feel discriminated. The texts was lost during the evacuation of Anandpur Sahib, yet parts of still remain such that one of his kavi's Sukha, his 'adhayatam prakash', a braj bhasha work on vedanta testifying to his in depth learning is still read and available at bookshops, Senapati's braj reworking of the Sanskrit Chanakaya Raajneeti, again available in bookshops.

Now the question is, if what you say is correct, if there were no value in learning in kashi then why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj start this endeavour in Sri Paonta Sahib? Secondly why did this continue a tradition including Bhai Gurdas (who has yet to have been termed an RSS agent, although time will tell) who also studied in Kashi?.....the reality is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib demonstrates not only an incredible sophistication in its structure, but also many concepts and terms from traditional philosophy. The Nirmalay are not your average Gyani who knows how to perform seva of Maharaj, perform ardas or pujaris as they were once called. Nirmalay are the intellectuals/scholar/saints of the Panth. Their role in the propogation of Sikhi is unheralded. Even the relatively kattar Sardar Kapur Singh in one of his lectures stated that of all the tragedies to hit Sikhi in the last 200 years, THE greatest one was the alienation of the Nirmalay and Udasis! This is from the man who also felt Sikhs had been robbed of their nation over the last 200 years! With that TRADITIONAL learning in philosophy, metaphysics, brahmvidya, grammar, logic they were then able to not only draw out nuances of the terminology of Gurmat, but also explain the nuance of those terms and concepts IN RELATION to other mats, other samprdays, other forms of updesh. Trust me, without knowing the traditional philosophical standpoints you lead to strange mutations like some of those floating around now that bring back in hath yog, or bring back in idolatory of the external roop or whatever. For example, Gurbani talking about turiyaa. When the Guru states this what does he mean? Until you either heard the prachaar of the learned saints, or have studied it yourself how would you ever know?!

To read more on nirmale orgins, contributions to the panth, please read stuff by tsingh on sikhawareness forum. One will learn thing or two with only open mind, this order is highly enrich and requires more than few post to understand them especially their bhek. One cannot judge them by wearing googles of tat khalsa.

Nimala history pervades much of Sikhi's past; exegetical, philosophical, dharmic/aatmic vidya, yog abhyaas, shaastrarth, raag vidya, ayurvedic vidya...Just an quick overview that many recent influential panthic figures were Nirmalay or educated by Nirmalay such as Sant Attar Singh Mustuana, Sant Baba Nand Singh ji (Nanaksarvale), Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, Sant Sundar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal, Baba Jwala Singh Herkhowal, Sant Mukhtiar Singh Saarang, Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale...a few more famous historical Nirmalay; Sant Ishar Singh ji Rarasahib, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabd, Baba Sahib Singh Bedi, Baba Karam Singh Hoti Mardan....

Would there be much Sikh history if it weren't for the work of Nirmala scholars like Gyani Gyan Singh ji works and Kavi Santokh Singh ji- soraj parkash granth?

Since link of sri man sant bhramgyani sunder singh ji bhindranwale link with nirmale are established by valli singh in his excellent post, here are two more great panthic figures- sant attar singh ji maustanewale and sant nand singh ji kalera linked with nirmale samparda'

first sant attar singh ji maustanewale link with nirmale

Sant ji initially learnt gurmukhi and paath from Sant Buta Singh in the local dera. Then it was through Sant Gyani Jodh Singh Ji, a nirmala from the naurangabad upsamrdaya, who was a granthi in the army, visited the local gurdwara, and become the inspiration for Sant ji to take amrit. Sant Jodh Singh ji was the shish of Sant Ram Singh Virakat, the shish of Bhai Maharaj Singh Ji. Sant Jodh Singh was one of the panj pyaray from whom Sant ji took amrit. Sant ji spent some time in Sant Jodh Singh ji's seva before becoming thoroughly virakat to perform tapasya.

Sant Ji went to Hazur Sahib during which time he befriended Svami Bhagat Singh Nirmala. Together they went on a tirath yatra taking in Omkareshvar, Ujjain, Ajmer, Vrindavan, Mathura, Haridvar and Rishikesh. While in Rishikesh Sant ji would rise at 2am and take ganga ishnan, have his food with ganga jal, etc. Sant ji then went on yatra to joshimath, hemkunt sahib, gangotri, badrinath, etc. Sant ji met with a number of very important Nirmalay including Pandit Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa. Sant ji attended the ardh kumbh mela in hardvar twice in his lifetime. The first time, Sant ji met with Pandit Ishar Singh Ji Dhodharvale and stayed in his ashram in Haridvar. Sant Ji also took part in a katha smagam in Haridvar put on by Nirmal Panchayti Akhara. Sant Ji was also very close to Sant Sahib Das Ji Udasi whose dera is still in Sangrur. Sant Ji heard the katha of Yog Vasistha from Sant Sahib Das. Sant ji's teachings are also advaita. One saakhi recounts that a nirmala sadhu asked Sant Attar Singh Ji about bhagti and Sant ji explained that there are three levels; kanishta (meaning lowest) in which it is felt that there is jiva and a colossal number of other jivas, then madham (middling) in which one recognises jiva and colossal Braham, and uttam (highest) in which there is only Braham, pervading both yourself and the colossal world around you. Even after attending the Panch Khalsa Divan of Teja Singh, the next event in his biography was attending the ardh kumbh, implying no ideological affinity with Teja Singh beyond prachar. Sant Ji also met with and stayed with; Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale, Sant Chanda Singh of Damdama Sahib, Mahant Gulab Singh ji of muktsar (Sant ji attended the opening ceremony of Mahant Gulab Singh's bunga), Mahant Mastaan Singh Nirmala, Sant Ram Singh Thamali, among many others. Obviously Sant Ji met with many other great personalities during his life, but the Sants that he chose to spend time with were nearly always nirmalas.

Nowhere does it mention that Sant ji set aside time to study with a particular Nirmala, however, his example is typical of the more tyagi Nirmalay of the 19th century.

Sant nand singh ji kalera link with nirmale

Details for the Baba Harnam Singh ji parampra . A key clue came from one of Baba Khem Singh ji's journals on Sriman 108 Baba Harnam Singh ji, in which there was a photo of a Nirmala I recognised who was being used as a source on life stories of Baba ji. This photo guided me to the right upsamprda. And here are the details...

Baba ji was part of the Pandhori Nijhraan upsamprda of Nirmalay. This is the full parampra for Baba Harnam Singh ji...

Guru Gobind Singh ji

Sant Bhai Seva Singh ji

Sant Milaap Singh ji

Sant Divaan Singh ji

Sant Mustaan Singh ji

Sant Mul Singh ji

Sant Ram Singh ji

Sant Harnaam Singh ji Bhuchowale

Sant ji had three important shish;

- Sant Nand Singh ji

- Sant Ram Singh ji Mulookewale (present shish is Sant Balwinder Singh ji I think)

- Sant Narayan Singh ji

Sant Khem Singh ji is present Mahant of Dera Rumi Wale.

The text does not refer to Sant Nand Singh ji having studied any adhyatamic vidya with Baba Harnam Singh ji (and judging by the author, he certainly would have outlined exactly what had been studied if he knew). This explains the lack of study of shaastraan in Nanaksar nowadays, and validates the claim of being bihangams (non-scholastic Nirmalay). It states that Baba Harnam Singh ji in his lifetime also had darshan of his dada gurdev, Baba Mul Singh ji.

I ll end my ranting with quote from bhai kahn singh nabha which i beleive both parties have mutual respect for. Even he writes:

"When the Sikhs, the Nihangs, Sehaj Dhari, Nirmalla's, Namdharis, and Udasi's see themselves as the sons of the same father. The Gurudwara reform movement would be over".

[big5abi]

Bijla you are mistaken.

If you read carefully, I said the Lopon Sampradaye which had come from Bhai Daya Singh sampradaye had sprouted from the boons Guru Ji had given. They said the lineage in Lopon will come sometime in the future. Baba Bhagat Singh had travelled to Lopon from their Guru Baba Khudah Singh. Maharaj Singh and Khudah Singh were both contemporaries after Baba Bir Singh Naurangabadi.

Guru Ji had offered his swords to the village people of Lopon but they had humbly declined saying that the son cannot do as the father. Guru Ji being pleased with their humility, then gave their bachan saying that from now on the village peoples' tongues will cut like swords and everything they utter will come to pass. As I recall Guru Ji had graced the village with 20 such boons.

Sant Darbara Singh and Sant Isher singh of Rara Sahib have met on some occasions and had great respect for one another. Sant Darbara Singh Ji had accompanied the sangat of Nanaksar in performing the jal parvah of Sant Isher Singh Ji kaleran. Sant Ji were known very well during their time by Sants and also the sangat.

You may find it funny, but I also find it amusing when a post-british tat khalsa singh sabha ideologist calls a nirmala sampradye which holds true to the old puratan views a sect. **EDITED**

Uk gupt kaur - you just don't know anything

[Matheen]

big5abi, there is no need for name calling - I'm sure your Sant doesn't approve of it.

For once (!) I agree with Bijla Singh who has made some good and valid points. Like I said before if Guru Ji has written in their own words that it is vital for their Sikhs to keep Kesh and Shastar, then why would their pyare not do so.

You can't blame the British for everything - do you know what Nihangs call monay or people who trim their dhara? Also, why is it that ALL the other branches of Bhai Daya Singh Samparda are strict about Amrit and all it entails?

You also wrote earlier in one of your posts that Sant Sunder Singh Ji (Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's gurdev) joined the tat-Khalsa Singh Sabha, which is wrong.

[fatehe]

Nirmaley do NOT receive Khande Da Amrit and roam around naked.

Forget about them look how many sects have shot out of the Khalsa order made by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.

Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh did not read the Raag Mala and called these other sects as "Malech Khalsa". The Nanaksar, Rara Sahib, Mastuana, Hoti Mardan Sampradas have a strong link with the Nirmala and yet come under the Khalsa order.

Damdami Taksal has Khalsa concept and also teach Gurmat Vidiya. Nihangs use cannabis and have become a complete joke! 3ho hang upside down like bats and preach Yoga.

[Mista Singh]

Ive heard of Mastane Sants in the Khalsa Panth beofre but never knew one to shave his dhara...Thanks for the replies to my questions though, appreciated.

True, especially since Guru Sahib wrote that his Sikhs should not come before Him without Kesh and weapons.

Chalo, Jo Guru Noo Bhaunda.......

P.S. Interesting lineage. Most other branches of the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda show that Baba Khuda Ji (Baba Jaswant Singh Ji) didn't have any successor.

Are there any contemporary sources that state Guru Ji gave permission to remove shaster?

Though I don't want to be accused of whipping a dead horse, I must address the sad prevalence of post-British perception of many here who are prone to spitefully or unknowingly demean Sehajdhari Sikhs in a way that even our Gurus NEVER did, in this spirit please consider these excerpts of the contributions of Sehajdhari Sikhs to the Panth and of Guru Gobind Singh, Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Devi's liberal use of the word 'Khalsa' from Sikhnet:

No one is demeaning "sehajdharis" and whats "post-British perception" of Sikhi got to do with Kesh being mandotary for the Khalsa Panth?

Im trying to think out of the box here but I cant see how Dashmesh Patsha would allow one of his Singhs to cut his Kesh and not class it as krehit?

[big5abi]

Matheen, I don't know what you are referring to as name calling. If it is the part about ideology, I don't percieve that as name calling, it is a fact.

The panj pyare were not sent to kashi, they were five other sikhs who were sent before the Khalsa was created.

Their attire was changed to peach robes By Guru Gobind Singh Ji because the teachers would not teach them unless they were not wearing any shastars.

The Lopon Sampradaye has kept its self the same as it had been from Baba Khudah Singh. The reason for why all other branches have been strict about amrit is due to the mainstream sikhi influence.

I am not arguing it is wrong for one to chak amrit, I am saying that nirmalay did not chak amrit nor had worn any shastars prior to british divide and conquer tactics.

Sunder Singh Ji did get baptised when he joined the tat khalsa in 1911. Whether you agree with this or not, I can care less.

Below is a picture of Dasam Pita giving darshan to Baba Biram Dass who had not religiously kept his kesh.

[N30S1NGH]

big5api,

please pay due respect to taksali mahapursh, please adress them as sant sunder singh ji bhindranwale.

At the end of day, they were bhramgyani mahapursh, didn't care much about political/dera/samparda war bullocks.