Sikh Views On Homosexuality

[alias]

hello jeeoz..

sex is a tool that is supposed to be used when necessary, i.e. when trying for children. we are supposed to live in grist, which means a home life, along with our sharda (spirituality stuff).

this beautiful act can be tainted, and then become kaam. when it is kaam, (which IS a sin) then it becomes for fun.

below was your post,

what if a couple has had 3 or 4 kids before 30 years old, should they refrain from sex forever? surely thats a bit harsh. can i assume from your answer that you believe contraceptives are not allowed? is there anything in the scriptures about this matter?

>>couples can have as many or as less kids as they can bring up in truthfulness and in the way of gurmat, theres no "limit" as such that iv come accross in gurbani.

there is gurbani that i have come accross that says basicaly, >>in anand a couple trries for a child...<<

so, from this, it can be said that, you can only try for a child once you have the true anand (due to, aanand aanand sabh ko kahe, AANAND GURU TE JAANIA..)

i tried to find the tuk, couldnt find it. will keep trying and post it.

this is the reason for sex. how else can it be that goodness and good people and sant and all people that are good will come into this world? the duty arises to have sex for the purpose of having a kid and then raising him acording to gurmat. homo-humans are just in it for either pleasure, or that they geet attached. this love attachment to people should be directed to god.

we are here to -foward goodness, and -emancipate ourselves. and not to get enticed into fake pleasures and get stuck in the rut of false attachment (i.e. any attachment other than god.)

i would like to say that this topic is good for informative purposes and personal questions should be left out.

exchange views and giaan.

gurfateh

[geo]

hello jeeoz..

sex is a tool that is supposed to be used when necessary, i.e. when trying for children. we are supposed to live in grist, which means a home life, along with our sharda (spirituality stuff).

this beautiful act can be tainted, and then become kaam. when it is kaam, (which IS a sin) then it becomes for fun.

below was your post,

what if a couple has had 3 or 4 kids before 30 years old, should they refrain from sex forever? surely thats a bit harsh. can i assume from your answer that you believe contraceptives are not allowed? is there anything in the scriptures about this matter?

>>couples can have as many or as less kids as they can bring up in truthfulness and in the way of gurmat, theres no "limit" as such that iv come accross in gurbani.

there is gurbani that i have come accross that says basicaly, >>in anand a couple trries for a child...<<

so, from this, it can be said that, you can only try for a child once you have the true anand (due to, aanand aanand sabh ko kahe, AANAND GURU TE JAANIA..)

i tried to find the tuk, couldnt find it. will keep trying and post it.

this is the reason for sex. how else can it be that goodness and good people and sant and all people that are good will come into this world? the duty arises to have sex for the purpose of having a kid and then raising him acording to gurmat. homo-humans are just in it for either pleasure, or that they geet attached. this love attachment to people should be directed to god.

we are here to -foward goodness, and -emancipate ourselves. and not to get enticed into fake pleasures and get stuck in the rut of false attachment (i.e. any attachment other than god.)

i would like to say that this topic is good for informative purposes and personal questions should be left out.

exchange views and giaan.

gurfateh

so what exactly is wrong with sex for pleasure? is any pleasureable act a sin? i enjoy cycling, should i only do this for exercise and not enjoy it?

[Harjeet.Singh]

Yes, some pleasurable acts are sins. Killing can be pleasurable, but that doesn't make it right? Same with rape. I don't think sex was intended for only recreation. Otherwise, why wouldn't are reproductive organs just shut off, if you just want pleasure? Answer me that? I think it was made pleasurable, or nobody would want to do it, hence the human race wouldn't survive. If you think about what your doing, if there was no pleasure with it, would you do it? The human body is just like an advanced bacteria, with the capability of getting towards God. Bacteria don't need pleasurable sex, humans do. More intricate.

[geo]

i dont agree with what you said. for procreation purposes sex does not have to be pleasureable. you would do it simply because you want a child.

if we follow the line of your argument then it leads us to say that sex for pleasure is a sin for some reason but it is not because it is pleasureable because other pleasureable acts are not sins.

every religion has a tough time with matters relating to sex and sexuality, the reason is simple. sexual urges make us do things which are sometimes wrong or percieved to be wrong by the rest of society therefor religion gets involved as a way to control this.

there should be nothing wrong with a married couple making love as they wish. there is no harm in it, the religious leaders only want to control all of this so that people stay in church,temple,mosque,gurdwara.

[raagiwannabe]

this is pretty simple. Whether your hetrosexual or homosexual, dont let your lust have power over you, keep it under control so that it doesnt have influence over you and cloud your judgement, just like attachments, anger, greed and your ego. These 5 are called thieves for a reason.

[geo]

this is pretty simple. Whether your hetrosexual or homosexual, dont let your lust have power over you, keep it under control so that it doesnt have influence over you and cloud your judgement, just like attachments, anger, greed and your ego. These 5 are called thieves for a reason.

thats a good answer. enjoy life but dont be a slave to these things, you should be able to have a healthy sexual relationship, just dont be addicted to have sex, it should be controlled.

[Harjeet.Singh]

thats a good answer. enjoy life but dont be a slave to these things, you should be able to have a healthy sexual relationship, just dont be addicted to have sex, it should be controlled.

its only a good answer because you are hearing, what you want to hear. i can't beleive you say "enjoy life" I have a problem with this. It sounds to me like you think Sikhi is about restricting yourself to be boring. No sikhi is about freedom, and there is only 1 true way to be free. It is as if your saying, sikhi is trying to limit your life so you can't have any "fun". Sikhi is all about enjoyment, there isn't anything boring about it. Real enjoyment, are things that are eternal, not the shallow wordly pleasures that last only a brief moment, and which will not even go along with you when you die. The amount of times you mentioned and imply you want to have sex for reacreational purposes, tells me that you are a slave to it yourself.

The goal is not to control it, but to totally eradicates it's existance. Then you won't have to control it, as their will be nothing to control. Because if you are trying to "control" it still has the ability to overpower you. Whether sex for pleasure is right or wrong, i don't know, but you don't have any suffice evidence to prove it is. So you can't just go and assume it is right.

WE should look for answers from Guruji, but you just think he is a mere book, so you wouldn't listen anyway.

[Mindless]

Theres an excellent response to this topic on a gursikhs blogs >> http://everydaysikhee.blogspot.com/2008/12...osexuality.html

but i will paste it all on here anyway, cos its just that great!, its quite a long read, but worth it.

"There I was sitting with a Christian and a homosexual (now that's what I call an opening line!). The Christian seemed as though she wanted to like the homosexual but openly admitted she found it hard to accept him. Her opinion which metamorphosed into an argument and then fizzled away, seemingly due to the fact she didn’t want to offend him, was that we choose our destiny and although God is The Architect of Destiny, it is we who ultimately play the leading part. We either walk the 'blessed route’ before us or we transgress and take an alternative route of our own choice.

I told them that my belief is that ultimately everything is according to Hukam (Divine Will / Cosmic Order) - that ultimately we are unable to decide who is good and who is bad because The One Light resides in all. But am I saying homosexuality should be promoted amongst Sikhs? No.

He was trying to encourage her to overlook this aspect of his personality given that it troubled her, and to realise that his sexuality does not totally define him as a human-being. He explained that there are parts of one another, be it views, attitudes or lifestyle, that we all find hard to accept. I agreed with him. Am I saying homosexuality should be promoted amongst Sikhs? No. So what am I saying? Well, let’s let the threads of this post unravel some more…

The subject of homosexuality comes-up very often when one talks of religion or spirituality; usually it is seen as beyond the pale; something to be despised and hated. Even in these politically-correct times, many religious leaders brazenly speak their minds regarding the subject, thereby illustrating how an anti-homosexual standpoint is readily accepted by much of the population.

Earlier today, the Pope attracted the anger of the gay community after he described homosexuality as being equivalent in terms of gravity to the fate facing our environment. Gays haven't just started to become a problem that needs sorting - The Old Testament which guides Jews and Christians talks of homosexuals being killed by God and a whole village being destroyed due to the ‘abnormal behaviour’ of its gay inhabitants.

The Pope alluded to this proposition, that homosexuality is an act against nature, when suggesting that humanity should take its cues from nature. The problem is that it doesn’t seem Mother Nature can be relied upon to support The Pope. Elephants, flamingos and salmon are just some of the animals that have been known to exhibit homosexual behaviour. Are we going to argue that nature is unnatural?

Various Islamic sources demand that Muslims should kill homosexuals. P.s. If you’re gay and live in Iran, I think it’s best you move-out very soon. Even if you live in a predominately Christian or Jewish area, be careful – some of them may believe that you should be put to death as per Old Testament Law.

It is astonishing how directly homosexuality has been addressed by the major religions and the manner in which the appropriate punishment has been declared - no political-correctness here!

So what does GurbaaNee, The Satguroo, teach us regarding homosexuality?

Homosexuality is not directly dealt with by The Satguroo anywhere within GurbaaNee. The reason being that The Satguroo deals with the root issue - not the trunk, branches, twigs, leaves or fruit. Always remember that The Satguroo addresses the source, not the implications or extensions of a given issue. This is why The Satguroo does not provide us with a great big list of do’s and don’ts. There is no need to shoot the little space-ships if you cancel-out the mother-ship! Deal with the essence and the rest automatically gets taken care of.

Lust (kaam) is an essential urge which drives the world to hunger for the most fleeting of physical pleasures, no matter how badly this pursuit compromises us. It’s one of the five thieves (panj choor) which constantly rob us of our spiritual equipoise. These are the five overarching tendencies which separate us from merger with Vaheguroo, from Enlightenment: lust (kaam), anger (krodh), greed (lobh), attachment (moh) and ego (ahankaar). Interestingly, lust is often described by gursikhs as the most powerful:

ਹੇਕਾਮੰਨਰਕਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੰਬਹੁਜੋਨੀਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਣਹ ॥

hae kaama(n) narak bisraama(n) bahu jonee bhramaavaneh

O sexual desire, you lead the mortals to hell; you make them wander in reincarnation through countless species.

ਚਿਤਹਰਣੰਤ੍ਰੈਲੋਕਗੰਮ੍ਹੰਜਪਤਪਸੀਲਬਿਦਾਰਣਹ ॥

chith harana(n) thrai lok ga(n)mya(n) jap thap seel bidhaaraneh

You cheat the consciousness, and pervade the three worlds. You destroy meditation, penance and virtue.

ਅਲਪਸੁਖਅਵਿਤਚੰਚਲਊਚਨੀਚਸਮਾਵਣਹ ॥

alap sukh avith cha(n)chal ooch neech samaavaneh

But you give only shallow pleasure, while you make the mortals weak and unsteady; you pervade the high and the low.

Ang 1358

But what of the vast majority of us, heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals who live our lives as single, boyfriends, girlfriends and spouses? Is lust something which we’ve managed to control and normalise through these relationships, these social constructs? Have we somehow assimilated lust into our lives and thereby controlled it or contained it? Can we lead a spiritual life whilst indulging in it or even just actively thinking about it?

The first thing to note is that lust even impacts upon those who do not partake in it – and most probably, to a greater extent. Remember it’s not just an action – it’s a thought-process. Even if we try to actively suppress it, it festers away, merely pushed out of sight...always using it’s down-time to make itself more and more stronger. Even the celibates and the renunciates who walked away from it found it burning in their hearts, like an ember ready to be reignited at the behest of even the slightest breeze.

The second thing to note is that according to The Satguroo’s Teachings, lust can only be overcome when one has merged with The One who is beyond all desires. In order to help us realise this lofty objective, The Satguroo has promoted grishtee-jeevan (a householder’s lifestyle), which revolves around a married heterosexual couple who have children, work for a living and advance spiritually. This enables Sikhs to slowly begin the process of neutralising lust by focussing it upon only one individual, in a stable, controlled and mature set of circumstances. Bhai Gurdaas Jee describes this philosophy thus:

ਏਕਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਜਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਧੀ ਭੈਣ ਵਖਾਣੈ॥

eaekaa naaree jathee hoe par naaree dhee bhain vakhaanai

Having one women as wife he (the Sikh) is a celibate and considers any other's wife his daughter or a sister.

Panna 6 - Bhai Gurdaas Jee’s Vaaraa(n)

What about having partners outside of marriage? Well they introduce instability, they chop and change and come and go. That’s perfect fodder for lust, which will simply envelop us more, thanks to such unstable circumstances - ever heard of 'rebound relationships' where people just sleep with someone to get over breaking-up with someone else? So as far as sexual relationships go, it's clear that for sikhs they should only exist within a marriage.

There have been some very prominent and very spiritual gursikhs who did not marry e.g. Bhai Gurdaas Jee, Sant Attar Singh Jee, Baba Nand Singh Jee etc. The common factor between them is that they were very committed gursikhs who had been blessed with major responsibilities by The Satguroo, and had decided to focus upon a life of intense spiritual practice and selfless service. They represent the exception, not the rule.

Despite effectively being celibate, Baba Nand Singh is reputed to have said that the fruits of naam simran (meditation upon Vaheguroo) achieved by a celibate person in 11 years are achieved by a married person in one day. I think he was trying to explain that by being married, and still focussing upon Vaheguroo, an individual is rewarded greatly and finds it easier to negotiate the pitfalls that lust throws in front of them. It’s as though they take the more difficult option and still succeed.

As such the married person, if they are blessed, will come to realise that the sexual act between a man and woman is simply to produce children, to procreate, and that the illusion of separateness, of ego, of maya (illusion), previously led them to accept lust as love. A person cannot harmonise with Vaheguroo until they discard all the temporary pleasures of lust, delicious foods, the latest fashions etc. The Satguroo makes clear that until these ‘tastes’, these pleasures, are relinquished, the spiritually-saturated taste of Naam and it’s amazing properties (which

is a whole other ball-park!) cannot be savoured:

ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿਬਿਨਾਕੈਸੇਬਧੈਸਨੇਹੁ ॥

preeth binaa kaisae badhai sanaehu

Without love, how can one's affection increase?

ਜਬਲਗੁਰਸੁਤਬਲਗੁਨਹੀਨੇਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

jab lag ras thab lag nehee naehu 1 rehaao

As long as there is attachment to pleasure, there can be no spiritual love. 1Pause

Ang 328

So where does that leave those brothers and sisters of ours who are homosexual and wish to have a sexual relationship within marriage? Well, with a big problem because such a relationship does not have the potential to lead to a realisation that lust is only non-destructive when it comes to reproduction – their sexual act will always be for physical pleasure. They cannot have an anand kaaraj (become married in the eyes of The Satguroo) because as the laavaa(n) (related verses) make clear the aim of the anand kaaraj is to merge with Vaheguroo and this cannot be achieved by people who enter the institution of marriage knowing that their forthcoming relationship will not ultimately enable them to realise that lust's only useful purpose is procreation.

The laavaa(n) depict the stages that the gursikh spiritualist passes through and culminate by describing the point at which merger with Vaheguroo, their True Husband, occurs. These verses are actually using the male/female metaphor that the institution of marriage affords in order to remind those soul-brides (suhaagan) entering marriage to understand who their real spouse actually is and in doing so, indirectly highlight that this new relationship which will most probably have a sexual component is not the True Union that the soul (atma) actually hungers for. The relationship between two physical bodies will always remain impermanent as opposed to the relationship between the soul-bride and her Eternal Husband (us and Vaheguroo). Here's how the laavaa(n) end:

ਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭਿਠਾਕੁਰਿਕਾਜੁਰਚਾਇਆਧਨਹਿਰਦੈਨਾਮਿਵਿਗਾਸੀ ॥

har prabh thaakur kaaj rachaaeiaa dhan hiradhai naam vigaasee

The Lord God, my Lord and Master, blends with His bride, and her heart blossoms forth in the Naam.

ਜਨੁਨਾਨਕੁਬੋਲੇਚਉਥੀਲਾਵੈਹਰਿਪਾਇਆਪ੍ਰਭੁਅਵਿਨਾਸੀ ॥੪॥੨॥

an naanak bolae chouthee laavai har paaeiaa prabh avinaasee 42

Servant Nanak proclaims that, in this, the fourth round of the marriage ceremony, we have found the Eternal Lord God. 42

Ang 774

Just like the heterosexual who thinks that lust has been mastered through marriage, the homosexual will also miss the truth. However for the heterosexual married person, if they are blessed with Perfect Destiny, there is the potential for lust to be defeated. The pleasure it affords will seem pale and insignificant, it will seem insipid, compared to the True Pleasure that meditation upon Vaheguroo affords.

So let’s go and tell all our misguided brothers and sisters to stop being gay and to marry a member of the opposite sex and progress spiritually via grishtee-jeevan right? Well perhaps it isn’t as simple as that. Many scientists believe that homosexuality is related to one’s genetic disposition and is not a learned behaviour. In other words gays are born that way. So how can someone who feels they cannot stop being gay start to live according to The Satguroo’s teachings?

Every single one of our tendencies and behaviour patterns are related to our previous actions and current actions; our karam. If people are born as homosexuals then this is simply their destiny – their previous actions, whatever they were, have led to this. We are all in the same boat. We have taken birth because the account of our previous actions meant that we were not spiritually-capable of merging into Vaheguroo.

If your homosexuality is something which cannot be changed, and you feel unable to marry a member of the opposite sex, then you would have to remain celibate – easier said than done I know, but the only logical approach. Such a person who masters lust, regardless of their ‘sexual orientation, would surely merge into Vaheguroo, The Desire-less:

ਆਸਾਮਨਸਾਸਗਲਤਿਆਗੈਜਗਤੇਰਹੈਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥

aasaa manasaa sagal thiaagai jag thae rehai niraasaa

who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;

ਕਾਮੁਕ੍ਰੋਧੁਜਿਹਪਰਸੈਨਾਹਨਿਤਿਹਘਟਿਬ੍ਰਹਮੁਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

kaam krodh jih parasai naahan thih ghatt breham nivaasaa 2

who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, Vaheguroo dwells. 2

Ang 633

Sikhee is a Path which points us towards the absolute pinnacle of spiritual realisation so naturally it’s a given that it will not be successfully traversed by many. Those who master lust, the gurmukhs that The Satguroo often talks about, are very rare. Perhaps one amongst thousands or even tens of thousands. And just in case you are wondering, I am certainly not one of them.

I do not speak on behalf of other sikhs, let alone The Satguroo. I know that many gursikhs will probably not share my views. But that is fine, because we must all treat our conversation with The Satguroo as something special and unique. What I will say is that there is certainly no need to stone or kill homosexuals, there is no need to hate, avoid or reject them or tell them that Vaheguroo is their enemy. There is no need to keep thinking about their sexual persuasion when we talk, laugh and spend time with them, when we shake their hand or bump into them. A gursikh could never indulge in any such destructive behaviour - quite the opposite in fact:

ਸਭਨਾਮਨਮਾਣਿਕਠਾਹਣੁਮੂਲਿਮਚਾਂਗਵਾ ॥

sabhanaa man maanik thaahan mool machaagavaa

The minds of all are like precious jewels; to harm them is not good at all.

ਜੇਤਉਪਿਰੀਆਦੀਸਿਕਹਿਆਉਨਠਾਹੇਕਹੀਦਾ ॥੧੩੦॥

jae tho pireeaa dhee sik hiaao n thaahae kehee dhaa 130

If you desire your Beloved, then do not break anyone's heart. 130

Ang 1384

So let’s end on this note - the fact that no matter what someone’s sexual persuasion, GurbaaNee does not advocate any kind of judgement, hatred or punishment. We are commanded to love all unconditionally. Neither should we brutishly force our interpretations of GurbaaNee upon others - when requested or sincerely motivated, we should simply assist anyone and everyone to make their own direct connection with The Satguroo, and to find Spiritual Truth themselves."

( ( ( :- ) >>> Atma Singh

[taran0]

dont usually post on these forums but came across this and its on thing that really doesnt make sense

i think harjeet singh you will find in early rehitnamas that say

"nij naree kae sang naeh thum nth badtaiyahu" look it up

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...p;ShabadID=2234

Sexual relations between a husband and wife are not lust that is a natural consumation of a marriage and can be enjoyed at will. but do not enter the bed of another woman even in your dreams.... this is the hukam of Guru Gobind Singh.

The guru even uses this analogy when speaking of the soul bride merging with the husband lord.

"She is filled with virtuous joy, and is totally pleased, when she is ravished and enjoyed by her Lord, and imbued with His Love" Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Soohee 765

"Says Nanak, my Husband Lord has ravished and enjoyed His soul-bride; my bed has become very beautiful and sublime." Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Bilaaval 822

Sex is a natural beautiful thing and i don't understand why so many sikhs go catholic militant over it and see it as such a negative and horrible act. It is kudarat it is nature. Sikhi does say though that we do not go around doing it like animals with anything that moves, but within the confines of a loving married relationship it is a pure act.

[Harjeet.Singh]

dont usually post on these forums but came across this and its on thing that really doesnt make sense

i think harjeet singh you will find in early rehitnamas that say

"nij naree kae sang naeh thum nth badtaiyahu" look it up

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...p;ShabadID=2234

Sexual relations between a husband and wife are not lust that is a natural consumation of a marriage and can be enjoyed at will. but do not enter the bed of another woman even in your dreams.... this is the hukam of Guru Gobind Singh.

ok I see, but then you said

The guru even uses this analogy when speaking of the soul bride merging with the husband lord.

"She is filled with virtuous joy, and is totally pleased, when she is ravished and enjoyed by her Lord, and imbued with His Love" Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Soohee 765

"Says Nanak, my Husband Lord has ravished and enjoyed His soul-bride; my bed has become very beautiful and sublime." Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Bilaaval 822

... i don't see what that has to do with anything? What are you trying to say, i don't understand.

Sexual relations between a husband and wife are not lust that is a natural consumation

never said it was