Sikh Views On Homosexuality

[alias]

hello jeeoz..

sex is a tool that is supposed to be used when necessary, i.e. when trying for children. we are supposed to live in grist, which means a home life, along with our sharda (spirituality stuff).

this beautiful act can be tainted, and then become kaam. when it is kaam, (which IS a sin) then it becomes for fun.

below was your post,

what if a couple has had 3 or 4 kids before 30 years old, should they refrain from sex forever? surely thats a bit harsh. can i assume from your answer that you believe contraceptives are not allowed? is there anything in the scriptures about this matter?

>>couples can have as many or as less kids as they can bring up in truthfulness and in the way of gurmat, theres no "limit" as such that iv come accross in gurbani.

there is gurbani that i have come accross that says basicaly, >>in anand a couple trries for a child...<<

so, from this, it can be said that, you can only try for a child once you have the true anand (due to, aanand aanand sabh ko kahe, AANAND GURU TE JAANIA..)

i tried to find the tuk, couldnt find it. will keep trying and post it.

this is the reason for sex. how else can it be that goodness and good people and sant and all people that are good will come into this world? the duty arises to have sex for the purpose of having a kid and then raising him acording to gurmat. homo-humans are just in it for either pleasure, or that they geet attached. this love attachment to people should be directed to god.

we are here to -foward goodness, and -emancipate ourselves. and not to get enticed into fake pleasures and get stuck in the rut of false attachment (i.e. any attachment other than god.)

i would like to say that this topic is good for informative purposes and personal questions should be left out.

exchange views and giaan.

gurfateh

so what exactly is wrong with sex for pleasure? is any pleasureable act a sin? i enjoy cycling, should i only do this for exercise and not enjoy it?

to an extent yes! guru says that pleasures of this world are tastless, and (most) are worthless (aside from the need to bring good truthful life into the world i.e. sex).

BUT!

any pleasure is not a sin really. i say this because, it is like saying, just because you are not remembering god every moment you have, or just because you say you are tired after a duty (roal), then these are sins.

its not a sin, it just 'is'. (just to confuse you a bit more, in guru maharaj it says, paap pun doe ek saman! )

but look...

sex for pleasure will consume you.

sex for pleasure will finish you in hell.

sex for pleasure will give you reincarnation (basikly you will keep coming back into the cycle and not get emancipated from this cycle)

sex for pleasure will BREAK YOUR CHIT FROM GOD.

sex for pleasure will make you lost in the world of maya (the "3 worlds")

sex for pleasure will make you fall away from meditation, washing our sins, and virtuous deeds (maybe)

sex for pleasure will only give you small pleasure.

sex for pleasure will destroy your mind making you uneasy and weak

sex for pleasure will make you go up and down inside yourself,fearful and worried (saying oh i shouldnt have slept with him/her)

not to mention, sex for pleasure makes you a beast with, just not caring about the other person, and to treat them like a prostitute/ piece of meat.

in the end, the one who will dispel the fear is god through saadh sangat and your support should be narayan, I.E. GOD.

sex for pleasure may make you worship the fe/male.

but then... we are sikhs supposed to worship god.

aatam ras je jaaniae... this shabad explains the trueness of pleasure. lots of shabads do. MAY i a say again that

ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਵਾਂ

move away from ourselves and come under the shelter of god.

this is the reason why we are here. the yogis understand this, and the saadhus, cus they have catagorised food even as ras foods and non ras foods. btw, the khalsa colours, what are they?

saffron, 'navy' blue, black and white.. i thort, wot bout the other colours? i found out the reason that these colours were chosen was because that they do not 'arouse' the mind.

this aside, sex is a ras that people do for having a kid. if caringness is not between the two people and they just wana go at it for no reason aside from geting 'hi', then it is wrong. it will consume the person and SELF CONTROL (which is at the heart of sikhi) will be lost, therefore, closeless to god is seriously jeopardized.

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to taran0

SEX IS NOT SOMTHING THAT IS TO BE ENJOYED AT WILL (for the reasons stated above). its not a toy. NAAM RAAS IS TO BE ENJOYED AT WILL!!!!!!BOYO!! U HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THE TUK, JUST LIKE THE OTHER TUKS I.E. RAAG SOOHI ETC. english translations are a poor substitute.

gurfateh

[taran0]

ok i think you have misunderstood, the "AT WILL" phrase i was actually tryign to find a nice way of sayign what Guru Gobind Singh was saying

I did not say it is to be enjoyed at will, i said that the hukamnama from Guru Gobind Singh jis bani says this that to control your kaam enjoy your own women NITT but do not go to the bed of a parayee (other) woman even in your dreams.

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹ ਤੁਮ ਨਿੱਤ ਬਢੈਯਹੁ ॥

nij naree kae sang naeh thum nth badtaiyahu ||

ਪਰਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜੈਯਹੁ ॥੫੧॥

paranaree kee saej bhool supanae hoon n jaiyahu ||51||

4 Amrit Keertan Guru Gobind Singh Page 852 Line 4

the link is here or look in your amrit kirtan

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...p;ShabadID=2234

the rough translation is enjoy the company of your wife daily

but do not go to the bed of another woman even in your dreams, (check some translations and ask soem people)

it is as simple as that, it never amazes me when people who have little or no life experience or are not even married try to pass judgement/edicts when they have no life/partner/marriage experience.

to live in grhisti jeevan is the way the gurus intended for us to live, and to say that sex is only for procreation is both naive and misleading to other young sikhs.

A healthy sexual relationship between a husband and wife is a key function of a happy healthy relationship so is simran, working hard, spending quality time with your family, doing seva together and growing old together and also eating together.

maybe we shouldnt eat for pleasure, but those prontey with the extra butter, now if you over indulge you will get fat and it will be a negative effect, but the odd prontey now and again is fine, in balance in moderation, but certainly not JUST TO FILL YOUR TED! we all eat for pleasure it is a material thing. even though in the spiritual sense it has no taste, but we are not only spiritual but we are physical aswell, and the body has many needs as does the spirit.

what I am tryign to say is don't see sex as a horrible and nasty evil thing that will send you to hell. It is a necessary function of being a ghristi jeevan Sikh. When you can understand its function not only as a physical function but a emotional need aswell.

again i will end it here with "read this tuk above from bani", maybe not now in your life it won't make sense but at some point it will. It was told to me to me 8 years ago before i got married by an old Taksali Singh in India, at the time i was both shocked as you might be and confused, but after a few years it made sense to me.

there are many other examples from Guru Gobind Singh jis bani that talk of the same things. To understand your own nature is a key to controlling it and balancing it. If you have delusions of your own purity then you are deluding yourself and putting yourself at great risk of making a mistake, because you are chasing a dream of purity that can only be acheived by a Satguru Like Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

as for homosexuality i dont really have a problem with it, it may not be accepted by the anand karaj but i choose to live and let live, i have a few gay friends and they are good people, it is not my place to judge them. Many of them have received retribution and hatred for what they are which i think is against sikhi, The Gurus taught us to not discriminate against anyone and protect those who are being persecuted, regardless of their faith, colour, religion or sexuality.

also kusrey in india are widely accepted as a part of the society there and all the times i have been they just seemed like people trying to live their life who are left alone to live their lives by everyone.

and that last person who posted that rant at the end saying

ALIAS "not to mention, sex for pleasure makes you a beast with, just not caring about the other person, and to treat them like a prostitute/ piece of meat. "

this person ALIAS seems to be displaying a lot of aggression and frustration about sexuality which is not healthy. Surely one can be with a person who is their life partner in a loving and caring way why does it have to be so perverted in your view. Seriously i mean no offense but you have a bit of a dark side.

in my experience it is the perverted ones who go around condeming and sentencing everyone to hell, because they only see in others the same darkness that torments them.

[Ksinghni]

"sex for pleasure will consume you.

sex for pleasure will finish you in hell.

sex for pleasure will give you reincarnation (basikly you will keep coming back into the cycle and not get emancipated from this cycle)

sex for pleasure will BREAK YOUR CHIT FROM GOD.

sex for pleasure will make you lost in the world of maya (the "3 worlds")

sex for pleasure will make you fall away from meditation, washing our sins, and virtuous deeds (maybe)

sex for pleasure will only give you small pleasure.

sex for pleasure will destroy your mind making you uneasy and weak

sex for pleasure will make you go up and down inside yourself,fearful and worried (saying oh i shouldnt have slept with him/her)

not to mention, sex for pleasure makes you a beast with, just not caring about the other person, and to treat them like a prostitute/ piece of meat.

in the end, the one who will dispel the fear is god through saadh sangat and your support should be narayan, I.E. GOD.

sex for pleasure may make you worship the fe/male.

but then... we are sikhs supposed to worship god.

aatam ras je jaaniae... this shabad explains the trueness of pleasure. lots of shabads do. MAY i a say again that

ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਵਾਂ

move away from ourselves and come under the shelter of god.

this is the reason why we are here. the yogis understand this, and the saadhus, cus they have catagorised food even as ras foods and non ras foods. btw, the khalsa colours, what are they?

saffron, 'navy' blue, black and white.. i thort, wot bout the other colours? i found out the reason that these colours were chosen was because that they do not 'arouse' the mind.

this aside, sex is a ras that people do for having a kid. if caringness is not between the two people and they just wana go at it for no reason aside from geting 'hi', then it is wrong. it will consume the person and SELF CONTROL (which is at the heart of sikhi) will be lost, therefore, closeless to god is seriously jeopardized."

Alias, WAHEGUROOOOO ...what an amazing post, i totally agree with your point.....

The Ras you get out of Naam if actually nothing compared to that you get out of sexual activity......and puraatan gurmukh souls will tell you that too.....

[alias]

that tuk does not mean that you can enjoy that daily. the take home message is one that says that stay pure and truthful. dont look at other people, i.e. only 1 wife. and where does it say anything bout sex in that tuk? it could mean that you and her get closer i.e. the main reason for the laavaa. oneness..but anyway.. i dont wish to debate this bit further..

and bout the beast comment, i wish to say, guru says that, and not me. i am no one to say that.

gauVI mhlw 5 ]

gourree mehalaa 5 |

Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

Aink rsw Kwey jYsy For ]

anik rasaa khaaeae jaisae tor |

Like beasts, they consume all sorts of tasty treats.

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kwm hyiq kuMcru lY PWikE Ehu pr vis BieE ibcwrw ]

kaam haeth kunchar lai faakiou ouhu par vas bhaeiou bichaaraa |

Lured by sexual desire, the elephant is trapped; the poor beast falls into the power of another. (and falls away from God)

nwd hyiq isru fwirE kurMkw aus hI hyq ibdwrw ]2]

naadh haeth sir ddaariou kurankaa ous hee haeth bidhaaraa |2|

Lured by the sound of the hunter's bell, the deer offers its head; because of this enticement, it is killed. ||2||

ELEPHANT referes to beast/ the uncontrolled one.

--------------------

gurmiq suin kCu igAwnu n aupijE psu ijau audru Brau ]

guramath sun kash giaan n oupajiou pas jio oudhar bharo |

I listened to the Guru's Teachings, but spiritual wisdom did not well up within me; like a beast, I fill my belly.

--------------------

i think the point is made..

sex is a beautiful thing. i would preffer if you would read the whole or my post. i did say sex was beautiful. but it is bastadyzed by kaam and uncontrolled people.

please try to understand my posting, and not just parts pf it. thank u..

AND

MAYBE YOU SHOULD take more care in what you write and accuse without knowing the sources of the remarks...

>>>>>>>>>>>>

in my experience it is the perverted ones who go around condeming and sentencing everyone to hell, because they only see in others the same darkness that torments them

<<<<<<<<<<<<

and to k singhni, vaheguru.

it is guru that has said all that about sex. in sahaskriti M5..

he kaamang narak bisraamang....etc...

gurfateh jeeoz