Insults To Sggs Ji In Vienna...i Want The Truth Please!

[kuthaman]

Agreed - the hooligans are complete idiots there is nothing in Guru Nanak or Ravidass Ji's teachings to say riot & loot Punjab when someone is killed.

FYI - people do not want to be "low-caste" they are labelled with it, we, as low caste Sikhs have been discriminated against since Sri Guru Gobind Singh JI Maharaj left this world. If I had my way I wouldnt have a label I wouldnt be of Chamar background. The below is my answer to someone who asked me the same question as you have:

"" People from low castes who are Sikhs and have been for generations & generations are told that we are not real Sikhs because we are of Chamar or Dalit background.... But you have people saying they are Jat Sikh or Ramgarhia Sikh. Ravidassi Sikh is a beautiful reference, taking the name of Ravidass Ji Maharaj who was from a low family. Why should people like you say we are not Sikhs - why should we be Chamar Sikhs?? Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Hukam was for the Khalsa to be one regardless of caste - oppression is the reason why some low-caste people prefer to be Hindu, some Ravidassia & some like me who will always stay behind the Sikh banner regardless.""

...Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

using ravidassi sikh is casteist and in my opinion racist as well. Khalsa knows no creed and there is only one sikh guru in present times, it is guru granth sahib. khatris don't go around yelling gobinda sikh, do they? if one is pure, japs naam, is honest, treats everything equal then there is no discrimination against that person anywhere in sikhs. but certain people who are short on merit but want bigger role play the caste card to get to top. thats how the ravidassi movement was built and is taking a new shape under fake babas. and why are u not following guru gobind singhs hukam by not referring to yourself as Khalsa? did guru gobind singh coined the term ravidassi sikh? even Bhagat Ravidass would have no idea about racists using his name to gain economic advantage over a more deserving person using the short cut of caste. are you amrit chakk by the way?

apnepart2, you guys have to accept that Guru Gobind Singh or 10 gurus aren't the only gurus in this world. Also GGS is not a property of a particular religious group. Even the saints you call gurus today were called "fakes" by rulers or public of the their time. Guru Nanak was called "Kurahiya" i.e one who follows wrong path...Was he? They were people like you and me. Now look history has proved otherwise. Guru Gobind Singh was labelled terrorist by moghuls.. Was he?

You should have this much common sense to understand that guru gobind singh was not last guru on earth. He may be last for khalsas but not for others and he or any other sikh guru didn't prevent anybody from following GGS.

firstly it has not been proven that the KZF did this - only an email has been sent and anyone can knock up an email in 5 seconds and sign it Santa Claus it doesnt mean everyone should go beat him up or blame him when he is delivering presents.

secondly brother i was also born in "chamar family" and my only links with this background were buying nike leather trainers and thats about it lol

there are reports that he did beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib, that he made inflammatory statements against Gurmat, that sikhs were beaten severely by his chelay and that he was shot in retaliation. the reality is we wont know exactly what took place for many months whilst investigations take place.

do you think in this day and age we have lots and lots of bhagats? or lots of fakes? this "guru" tells people dont take amrit and join khalsa, instead he gives naam himself which just happens to be same naam given by fake radhasoami gurus.

i decided to take amrit later and am amritdhari now. i follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji only. i couldnt follow a human especially a dehdhari guru. we both know this dehdhari guru was shot for a reason. if you carry around chelay armed with weapons & goondas/bodyguards you have them for a reason. the people who follow this guy have caused enough frictions in ravidassia bhawans across europe and india. this guy was not telling people to follow Guru Granth Sahib and was instead gathering chelay.

why should we wash his dirty feet? cant he run his own bath? i'm sorry but i'm sick of these people using our community and manipulating innocent people to pay them all their money and bow to him and wash his feet and wipe his backside. why didnt he just get a job like the rest of us? truth is no human is perfect - only Guru Granth Sahib and Bani is perfect. humans say & do stupid things and get shot - this is reality.

the only way out of this is to stop following these fake people and instead follow what Guru Granth Sahib teaches, then we will find the answers to our questions. until then we will run around in circles following this human or that human who has no answers or doesnt even have a clue what he is doing in life.

You are not the one you are purporting to be. Shame on you. You are not chamar or amritdhari.

Honestly the Sikh notion and Hindu Notion of Guru are highly apart. Since you deny the Guruship of the 10 Sikh Gurus, why are u following the scripture that they penned on command from God? The SGGS belongs to those who follow it and give respect to the Gurus . Ravidassia beliefs do not seem to be defined and seem to take Hindu or Sanatan stands on the scripture. The false truths you attempt to assert are not found in the scripture, but come from other peoples such as Dera Sachkhand Sants. In one of the other posts u said that Gurdwara attendants teach lies. Those people didnt teach me a thing, all my knowledge comes from academic sources, that are well reputed outside Punjab. The statements you make may not have any historical backing. If our management is corrupt the same is possible for Ravidassia Gurdwara management. Investigate your own sources before citing them. If you need a bibliography I will gladly appoint it.

[Guest jason12]

At last RavidassiSikh got his answer.

Thanks mastaana_singh.

Can I just say if someone wants to seek the truth they have to look at things from both sides.

I was aware of these articles /pictures & I agree 'mutha tekking' these Sants In Gurdwara is not Sikhi. But to me this doesn't explain why a man was shot. Let me explain...

- These articles are from 2002, the issue was that people from Ravidass community were complaining that when Dera Sants came to our Ravidass Gurdwaras in Southall/Birmingham people were touching their feet in the prescence of SGGS Ji. Some people thought this was okay some people thought it was wrong - but mainly this was fuelled by internal committee politics e.g. one side criticising the other. However this practise was stopped & I saw with my own eyes that since then Gurdwaras asked Sants to go to the Hall & let people touch their feet there not in presence of SGGS Maharaj Ji.

- So we knew that people were bowing their heads & touching Sants' feet inside Gurdwara - this is clearly not right. But is this really reason for the assasination & troubles in Vienna ? I personally don't think so... I'm not Sherlock but I think there's another reason...

This UK sabha, who put these ads in newspaper were against these saints at that time due to internal politics nothing to do with saints. UK sabha wanted control of the Kanshi temple that Saints established this temple in memory of Guru Ravidass Ji with assistance from millions of Guru Ravidass Ji's devotees. But this sabha in UK, which claims to be representing Guru ravidass followers but don't have any Ravidassi population supporting them, wanted to have control of temple in India while staying in UK.

This UK sabha touted themselves as representatives of Ravidassi religion across the world even when they were not supported by 95% of Guru Ravidass temples of the UK. This sabha was infiltrated by certain elements, you know who. I am sure your brethren in UK can tell you more about history of this sabha. Sants were unnecessary troubled due to internal politics of Guru Ravidass temples in this case.

Moreover what is wrong with the pictures??

What is wrong in respecting someone while GGS is present..?

Don't you guys ever touch the feet of your parent in presence of GGS..?

Does GGS says, while I am present, don't touch anybody's feet or don't respect anybody..?

Now, it can only be called beadbi if GGS specifically states that "don't respect any saint etc. if I am present in the room". I will agree then but instead GGS says "touch the feet of saints" and guru Nanak says "I have learned everything from the dust of the feet of saints".

This sikh code of conduct applies to sikh temples but not to ravidassi temples. They are a different entity. Sikhs have to learn this before, god forbid, another civil war happens and it will not be limited to Punjab this time. They have to learn that everybody has religious freedom and worship in their own manner.

Now who am I preaching? You guys already know but your ego just doesn't let you accept it. You are worried about charawa being diverted to Guru Ravidass Temples, you are worried about chamars getting out of your clutches. Your notion of respect/disrespect comes from preaching done by mostly management committees or illiterate bhais who want all money to themselves and feel jealous when people respect saints and offer them little bit of money because saints do good work.

[Guest jason12]

Just because the Flipin Sant who got shot up was a Dalit so called don't mean he was innocent , stop trying to turn this into a Sikh Vs Dalit issue - this is what the media wants its about beadbi that took place and a guy got shot up simple as

In the same tone, if your logic applies, the rulers of the times didn't like many sikh gurus and gurus were brutally killed. Was it OK sarpanch ji?

Logic that held at that time holds now also. By your logic, they must have disrespected something then too...

Did Bhinderwale also disrespect something that he was ridden with bullets...? You call him Shahid and I have no issues with it but don't let your logic be limited at your discretion.

By shooting thse saints, these terrorists actually shot at GGS and all religious figures in it. One has to know about saints before commenting about them. These saints had brough GGS in their life.

Based on your comments, logic and prejudice, you people are now no different than Taliban or Aurangzeb or Jahangir...and world is realizing it very well now. People like you are really enhancing profile of sikhs worldwide.

[kuthaman]

Just because the Flipin Sant who got shot up was a Dalit so called don't mean he was innocent , stop trying to turn this into a Sikh Vs Dalit issue - this is what the media wants its about beadbi that took place and a guy got shot up simple as

In the same tone, if your logic applies, the rulers of the times didn't like many sikh gurus and gurus were brutally killed. Was it OK sarpanch ji?

Logic that held at that time holds now also. By your logic, they must have disrespected something then too...

Did Bhinderwale also disrespect something that he was ridden with bullets...? You call him Shahid and I have no issues with it but don't let your logic be limited at your discretion.

By shooting thse saints, these terrorists actually shot at GGS and all religious figures in it. One has to know about saints before commenting about them. These saints had brough GGS in their life.

Based on your comments, logic and prejudice, you people are now no different than Taliban or Aurangzeb or Jahangir...and world is realizing it very well now. People like you are really enhancing profile of sikhs worldwide.

The truth is you have a lot of theories about Sikhism which for the most part originate from uncerdible sources. Please elaborate what constitutes a Ravidassia. What are the rituals that are involved. What is the place of the SGGS. Please be honest with no Sikh Bashing. Create a new topic that informs Sikhs what exactly is Ravidassia. I have seen bits and pieces of Sant Ramanand and Dera Sachkhand's mission in your posts, but there is no clarity. It is likely that you will respond that we re insulting Ravidassia and we do not have a right to know. Please make it clear once and all what it means to be Ravidassia.

[13hmnbeing13]

Firstly – I've seen a few ignorant idiots posting on this site to intentionally cause trouble – if you are true Sikhs then you wouldn't be representing your community in this way!

Now I am NOT a Dera follower but a follower of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, & of I am of so-called Chamar background (but I only buy leather for my own shoes :D ).

Anywho…. My question is what exactly have Dera Sachkhand Ballan Sants done to deserve assassination – what Beadbi or insults have they done?

I have asked a few people about the Sants & read-up to find the truth. I agree some points below are not strictly orthodox Sikhi – but tell me which one is an insult to SGGS Ji?!

- They spread teachings of SGGS Ji and ALL the Gurus & raise the name of Ravidass Dass Maharaj Ji especially because they are all of low caste background.

- Just like other other caste-based Preachers / Sants in Punjab & they do NOT call themselves Gurus & do not TELL people to touch their feet, however people invariably do when they see them. I am not saying this is right….

- People are saying they sit at the same level as SGGS Ji – I don't understand this because the videos I have seen on YouTube they are just sitting same place you would see Gyanis or 'Kirtan wale' sitting.

- Their Gurdwaras have pictures of the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji & all Gurus but also most prominently Ravidass Maharaj Ji & all the low caste Bhagats / Sants. Isn't this similar to other caste Gurdwaras some who have their own high caste Sants & even picures of Jarnail Singh / Shaheeds etc up. Right? Wrong?

- Finally it said on Star News that they built 2 hospitals & 10 schools for the poor of all castes not just poor people from low castes.

What have this Khalistan Zindabad Force done for the poor or needy OR what have they done to spread teachings of SGGS Ji?

Can someone please tell me as Sikhs why some looneys are allowed to kill people in the presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj?

I am happy to be proved wrong but if these men/Dera were doing something so wrong why did the SGPC (temporal & spiritual HQ for Sikhism)/ Akal Takht not raise a Hukam to denounce them like they have done in other cases e.g. these Sacha Sauda odd people.

By the way - my idea is that there should be a 'Reclaim The Khalsa' Movement - end casteism.

Ek Oankar, Sat Guru Prasad

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

[13hmnbeing13]

At last RavidassiSikh got his answer.

Thanks mastaana_singh.

Can I just say if someone wants to seek the truth they have to look at things from both sides.

I was aware of these articles /pictures & I agree 'mutha tekking' these Sants In Gurdwara is not Sikhi. But to me this doesn't explain why a man was shot. Let me explain...

- These articles are from 2002, the issue was that people from Ravidass community were complaining that when Dera Sants came to our Ravidass Gurdwaras in Southall/Birmingham people were touching their feet in the prescence of SGGS Ji. Some people thought this was okay some people thought it was wrong - but mainly this was fuelled by internal committee politics e.g. one side criticising the other. However this practise was stopped & I saw with my own eyes that since then Gurdwaras asked Sants to go to the Hall & let people touch their feet there not in presence of SGGS Maharaj Ji.

- So we knew that people were bowing their heads & touching Sants' feet inside Gurdwara - this is clearly not right. But is this really reason for the assasination & troubles in Vienna ? I personally don't think so... I'm not Sherlock but I think there's another reason...

I fully agree with you ,my freind even though me not a sherlock but i do personally think there is a possible another reason, which could be jealousy and hatred because Ravidassia community's economic graph is quite raising and as you have rightly said buiding up of too many schools and hospitals and huge temples by the followers of this low caste community.But i certainly comdemn when you forcefully enter somebody's place of worship and that too in the presense of SGGS ji and start shooting and also harm 2-3yr old kids(girls) is that the maryada these guys talking about..... Waheguru....Waheguru....waheguru

[Bijla Singh]

If Ravidassi is caste than so is Sikhi (because you say Guru nanak created sikhsim). Isn't it?

Ravidasis are chamaars and they follow Ravidas Ji because he was from a chamaar background whereas Sikhi is followed by everyone and did not start due to caste. First you say you love Sikhi preached by Guru Nanak Dev Ji then you insult His path. Is this what you learn in your cult? Instead of defending your beliefs you insult others. It goes to show the low level of intellect of chamaars.

you guys have to accept that Guru Gobind Singh or 10 gurus aren't the only gurus in this world.

No. You have to accept the fact that only Guru Nanak Sahib’s Jot is the Guru. There is only One Satguru and that is Shabad. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said this himself in Bani and so did other Gurus. Where did Bhagat Ravidas say that he was the Guru?

Also GGS is not a property of a particular religious group

It is not a property of anyone. Guru Granth Sahib is Guru of Sikhs and only Sikhs have the right to keep it in Gurdwaras. Everyone is welcome to benefit from the gyan. Guru Arjan Dev Ji wrote Guru Granth Sahib and gave it to Sikhs. He didn’t give it to Ravidasis. On one hand you say you are not Sikhs then why have Guru Granth Sahib in your deras? So sad that your so-called “guru” couldn’t provide you with a granth of your own and you have to rely on Sikhs to keep your cult going. Pathetic.

Moreover what is wrong with the pictures??

Sikhs don’t believe in pictures. Is Ravidas, the person, and his picture the same? Are your parents human or pictures or are they the same? Guru is Shabad not pictures. Guru Sahib strictly spoke against pictures, idols etc. Did Ravidas Ji worship pictures?

What is wrong in respecting someone while GGS is present..?

Respecting and worshipping are two different things. In presence of Guru Granth Sahib everyone sits at equal level and no one is given more respect than others. When Guru Arjan Dev Ji brought Guru Granth Sahib in Darbar Sahib he sat with the sangat and slept on the floor. This shows how much Bani needs to be respected. When two Sikhs walked in a room reciting bani, Guru Harrai Ji quickly got up and sat on the floor. When Guru Hargobind Ji asked a Sikh to recite JapJi Sahib he sat on the floor. Bani is always higher. When Akbar came to have darshan of Guru Sahib, he sat with the sangat. Had you studied Bani a little you would’ve known better.

Don't you guys ever touch the feet of your parent in presence of GGS..?

No. Only Guru’s feet must be touched which is done by bowing to the Shabad.

Does GGS says, while I am present, don't touch anybody's feet or don't respect anybody..?

Does Gurbani say touch anyone’s feet while I am present? Can you provide evidence? Assume in your dera one is keep praising Jesus and when interrupted asks “where did Ravidas say that in my temple do not praise Jesus”? What would your answer be? We worship Guru Granth Sahib the same way Guru Sahib did. He showed us how to do it. Gurbani says that only Satguru must be worshipped and bowed to. Sikhs have never bowed to others. Imagine, Ravidas is sitting on a throne in your dera and all the people are bowing to a human. On one hand you want religious freedom and respect but on the other hand do not wish to respect Sikhs’ feelings and sentiments. Why the double standard?

Now, it can only be called beadbi if GGS specifically states that "don't respect any saint etc. if I am present in the room".

So in ravidas dera it is not considered beadbi to curse Ravidas Ji since he never said “it is my beadbi if you curse me”.

guru Nanak says "I have learned everything from the dust of the feet of saints".

Where? Ravidas says “my caste is kameene, ancestry is kameene and birth is worthless”. So is it not true that chamaars are kameenay people since Ravidas Ji himself was a ….. and their birth is worthless? From now on study bani in proper context or you will get more taste of your medicine.

They are a different entity. Sikhs have to learn this before, god forbid, another civil war happens and it will not be limited to Punjab this time. They have to learn that everybody has religious freedom and worship in their own manner.

So now chamaars are talking tough because they got protection of the government? Why not go to Kashmir and show your bravery. I bet you will run away in no time. Why not just have a civil war? Show us what you got. If you want religious freedom then have everything separate from Sikhs. Don’t keep our Guru in your deras. Imagine if we kept your human guru in Gurdwara and kept insulting him and beating him and then justified it by saying “we have the right to religious freedom and worship in our own manners.” How come Ravidas Ji never gave you a granth and set of code of conduct? Who did he appoint after him? Why do your gurus keep hair and wear turbans? Why did you copy our jaikara and distorted it? Do not keep Guru Granth Sahib in your dera, have your own granth and you will have no issues from the Sikhs. Respect their beliefs and what they believe in and Sikhs won’t trouble you.

Where did Ravidas call himself a Guru? He had a guru of his own then why not worship his guru too? He did not start any cult or sect? He gave no granth, scripture, code of conduct, jaikara, established no temple etc. He appointed no one in his place. He never spoke of causing riots, raising arms and startng a war. He never spoke for keeping hair or turban then why are today's fake human gurus keeping hair and wearing turbans? Ravidasi chamaars of today are nothing but bunch of goondas who are threatening the civil life of innocents and disrupting peace in Punjab. Puppets of the government and insult to Bhagat's name.

[Harmindersingh]

Well written Bijla Singh. I agree with your arguments completely.

But I just want to clarify one thing. I know you didnt mean it but lets not use any bad words for any Bhagat Sahiban, they are our Guru through their Shabad in SGGS. Its disgusting when people start separating Guru Sahiban and Bhagat Sahiban. Please lets not utter even a single bad word for them.

[Kaljug Singh]

I fully agree with you ,my freind even though me not a sherlock but i do personally think there is a possible another reason, which could be jealousy and hatred because Ravidassia community's economic graph is quite raising and as you have rightly said buiding up of too many schools and hospitals and huge temples by the followers of this low caste community.But i certainly comdemn when you forcefully enter somebody's place of worship and that too in the presense of SGGS ji and start shooting and also harm 2-3yr old kids(girls) is that the maryada these guys talking about..... Waheguru....Waheguru....waheguru

Fateh!

There is no evidence of caste being a factor in the attacks, nor is there evidence about young children being attacked or held hostage.

If there is an as yet undetermined motive for the attack, the most obvious one is that it was an internal conflict within the Ravidassi community as there is plenty of.

To suggest jealousy of the community's success, or the lack of money coming into gurdwaras in Vienna is the reason for the killing, is pretty weak and just reveals how important money is to the accusers.

The sensible thing to do is to wait until the Austrian police have conducted their investigations and released information to the public. That way we will know for certain and not have to rely on rumours and hearsay.

Regards,

K.

[Guest jason12]

Ravidassi Sikh, your unwillingness to except Ramanand was in the wrong is beggining to irritate alot of people as i can tell from posts. so i'll try to be frank with u.

You called people "ignorant idiots" for supporting the shooting.

Then u asked for proof that Ramanand did beadbi.

You got your proof now. (the photos).

Save the photos, print them , frame them , we dont care what u do with them.

But stop defending the man now. There are no 2 sides of the story when it comes to disrespect of SGGS. There is no negotiation over such issues.

The only thing im upset about is that Niranjan das survived..

Another thing is that u keep talking of castes. Many people have asked you to stop talking about castes on here.

If u want to be known as a Chammar then thats your personal choice. But dont start labelling gurdwareh as jatt gurdwareh ect. Keep such things to yourself or u can expect strong replies from members.

I didnt see the word "JATT" lettered or labelled on the gurdwara i go to. So stop reffering to it as jatt gurdwara.

It doesnt help for unity, when people keep driving wedges. Abandonn this caste labbelling.

you started a whole topic to ask people to justify the shooting.

Maybe now YOU can answer a few questions for us as a devout ravidassi?

Q: Why has the Southall ravidass temple president gone to vienna? if he shows solidarity with the supporters of RamaNand and expresses his condolenses then surely that means he supports the actions of RamaNand and his Beadbi?

Does he support beadbi of SGGS?

your turn to answer us this question now..

Beadbi, beadbi, beadbi, these sikhs have gone mad. There is not word other than beadbi in their dictionary and bloody hell, these fools don't even know the meaning of beadbi. He was probably killed because (as people say) he had started effort to cover Guru ravidass Birthplace temple in Kanshi in gold and sikhs got jealous and started thinking what will happen of their golden temple, if anothet one comes up. So sheer jealousy. I may be wrong, I have heard these rumours. Most used word of 2009, yes it is BEADBI.

Another sikh terrorist fired at police when he was approached by Austrian Anti terrorist squad. Bloody criminals.

Some other words sikhs have in dictionary "panth is in khatra", "beadbi ho gai", "matha tek", "ghalugharra". Yaar tuhada panth hamesha khatre wich kyon rehnda hai.

My comments are not for peace loving, guru loving sikhs but for those like this fool ak47 who wishes death for others. Well, ak47 wish it for your loved ones, not our saints. They are saints of god. "sant ka nindak nanaka bahur bahur avtaar".