The controversy: Meat

[Simran9]

Thanks for replies everyone, but I said don't post ur material here :umm: , email it to me. Chalo koi na, as long as this thread doesn't close cuz then no one will see it (who bothers to look in that section) and I won't get more supporting material for my position on the topic.

pplz who pm'd me, thanx, yeah i can forward the debate to u, but I'll edit stuff like my friend's name and email and stuff not relevant to the topic. thats obvious.

thirdly, in the old debates on meat someone mentioned that all of Sri Guru Hargobind ji's Hukams start with "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." Could someone tell me if this is in SGGS ji? If it is refer me to the page #'s please. I just ask cuz I know Guru's gave Hukams at places of sadhsangat but I'm not sure if all of those were compiled in SGGS ji or not.

lastly, I have never heard of "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH" (this was mentioned in old debates). :D Could someone tell me what this granth is about, who the author is, etc.

thanx everyone.

[Simran9]

someone mentioned that all of Sri Guru Hargobind ji's Hukams start with "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." Could someone tell me if this is in SGGS ji? If it is refer me to the page #'s please. I just ask cuz I know Guru's gave Hukams at places of sadhsangat but I'm not sure if all of those were compiled in SGGS ji or not.

lastly, I have never heard of "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH" (this was mentioned in old debates). :umm: Could someone tell me what this granth is about, who the author is, etc.

thanx everyone.

nobody knows? :D

[JSingh]

someone mentioned that all of Sri Guru Hargobind ji's Hukams start with "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." Could someone tell me if this is in SGGS ji?

Satpreet, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji's bani is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Only 6 Gurus' bani in in SGGS Ji: Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji - Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, and Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

[theturbanator]

someone mentioned that all of Sri Guru Hargobind ji's Hukams start with "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." Could someone tell me if this is in SGGS ji? If it is refer me to the page #'s please. I just ask cuz I know Guru's gave Hukams at places of sadhsangat but I'm not sure if all of those were compiled in SGGS ji or not.

lastly, I have never heard of "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH" (this was mentioned in old debates).  :umm: Could someone tell me what this granth is about, who the author is, etc.

thanx everyone.

nobody knows? :D

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo

Jee Kee Fateh!!

PM khalistani for that or mkhalsa, i think they both have pictures of the hukam

[theturbanator]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

i need a picture of Guru Hargobind Sahib jis hukam, if anyone can help me out?

[SSB]

http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/media/video/.../TaksalMeat.wmv tells you some places where people say that it says u can can eat meat this video tells u how they are wrong and what the bani is tryin to tell us.

[SarabLoh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

MAKE SURE U READ THIS ..... what i got out of it is it is useless to argue about meat. jo apne sharda ... follow it

slok mÚ 1 ] (1289-11)

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

pihlW mwshu inMimAw mwsY AMdir vwsu ] (1289-11, mlwr, mÚ 1)

pahilaaN maasahu nimmi-aa maasai andar vaas.

First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh.

jIau pwie mwsu muih imilAw hfu cMmu qnu mwsu ] (1289-12, mlwr, mÚ 1)

jee-o paa-ay maas muhi mili-aa had chamm tan maas.

When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh.

mwshu bwhir kiFAw mMmw mwsu igrwsu ] (1289-12, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maasahu baahar kadhi-aa mammaa maas giraas.

He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the <admin-profanity filter activated>.

muhu mwsY kw jIB mwsY kI mwsY AMdir swsu ] (1289-13, mlwr, mÚ 1)

muhu maasai kaa jeebh maasai kee maasai andar saas.

His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh.

vfw hoAw vIAwihAw Gir lY AwieAw mwsu ] (1289-13, mlwr, mÚ 1)

vadaa ho-aa vee-aahi-aa ghar lai aa-i-aa maas.

He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home.

mwshu hI mwsu aUpjY mwshu sBo swku ] (1289-14, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maasahu hee maas oopjai maasahu sabho saak.

Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh.

siqguir imilAY hukmu buJIAY qW ko AwvY rwis ] (1289-14, mlwr, mÚ 1)

satgur mili-ai hukam bujhee-ai taaN ko aavai raas.

When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then he comes to be reformed.<

br>

Awip Cuty nh CUtIAY nwnk bcin ibxwsu ]1] (1289-15, mlwr, mÚ 1)

aap chhutay nah chhootee-ai naanak bachan binaas. ||1||

Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1||

mÚ 1 ] (1289-15)

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

mwsu mwsu kir mUrKu JgVy igAwnu iDAwnu nhI jwxY ] (1289-15, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

kauxu mwsu kauxu swgu khwvY iksu mih pwp smwxy ] (1289-16, mlwr, mÚ 1)

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gYNfw mwir hom jg kIey dyviqAw kI bwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

mwsu Coif bYis nku pkVih rwqI mwxs Kwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

PVu kir lokW no idKlwvih igAwnu iDAwnu nhI sUJY ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

nwnk AMDy isau ikAw khIAY khY n kihAw bUJY ] (1289-18, mlwr, mÚ 1)

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

AMDw soie ij AMDu kmwvY iqsu irdY is locn nwhI ] (1289-19, mlwr, mÚ 1)

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts

.

mwq ipqw kI rkqu inpMny mCI mwsu n KWhI ] (1289-19, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

Page 1290

iesqRI purKY jW inis mylw EQY mMDu kmwhI ] (1290-1, mlwr, mÚ 1)

istaree purkhai jaaN nis maylaa othai manDh kamaahee.

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

mwshu inMmy mwshu jMmy hm mwsY ky BWfy ] (1290-1, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

igAwnu iDAwnu kCu sUJY nwhI cquru khwvY pWfy ] (1290-2, mlwr, mÚ 1)

gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

bwhr kw mwsu mMdw suAwmI Gr kw mwsu cMgyrw ] (1290-2, mlwr, mÚ 1)

baahar kaa maas mandaa su-aamee ghar kaa maas changayraa.

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

jIA jMq siB mwshu hoey jIie lieAw vwsyrw ] (1290-3, mlwr, mÚ 1)

jee-a jant sabh maasahu ho-ay jee-ay la-i-aa vaasayraa.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

ABKu BKih BKu qij Cofih AMDu gurU ijn kyrw ] (1290-3, mlwr, mÚ 1)

abhakh bhakheh bhakh taj chhodeh anDh guroo jin kayraa.

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

mwshu inMmy mwshu jMmy hm mwsY ky BWfy ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

igAwnu iDAwnu kCu sUJY nwhI cquru khwvY pWfy ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)

gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you c

all yourself clever, O religious scholar.

mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybˆØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

jij kwij vIAwih suhwvY EQY mwsu smwxw ] (1290-5, mlwr, mÚ 1)

jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

iesqRI purK inpjih mwshu pwiqswh sulqwnW ] (1290-5, mlwr, mÚ 1)

istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

jy Eie idsih nrik jWdy qW aun@ kw dwnu n lYxw ] (1290-6, mlwr, mÚ 1)

jay o-ay diseh narak jaaNday taaN unH kaa daan na lainaa.

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

dyNdw nrik surig lYdy dyKhu eyhu iD|wxw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)

dayNdaa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

Awip n bUJY lok buJwey pWfy Krw isAwxw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)

aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paaNday kharaa si-aanaa.

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

pWfy qU jwxY hI nwhI ikQhu mwsu aupMnw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)

paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

qoieAhu AMnu kmwdu kpwhW qoieAhu iqRBvxu gMnw ] (1290-8, mlwr, mÚ 1)

to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaaN to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

qoAw AwKY hau bhu ibiD hCw qoAY bhuqu ibkwrw ] (1290-8, mlwr, mÚ 1)

to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.

Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

eyqy rs Coif hovY sMinAwsI nwnku khY ivcwrw ]2] (1290-9, mlwr, mÚ 1)

aytay ras

chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Jee, while I agree those hukams do give the hint that it is useless to argue about eating meat, it doesn't give an answer to it either!!

Since this is one of those topics that is still highly controversial, it must be resolved using Gurbani as well

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[natsilahk]

There is no answer to this debate.

Gurbani does not say NOT to eat meat OR say to eat meat.

Re-quoting this from sggs and a previous post :

"mwsu mwsu kir mUrKu JgVy igAwnu iDAwnu nhI jwxY ] (1289-15, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

kauxu mwsu kauxu swgu khwvY iksu mih pwp smwxy ] (1289-16, mlwr, mÚ 1)

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gYNfw mwir hom jg kIey dyviqAw kI bwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

mwsu Coif bYis nku pkVih rwqI mwxs Kwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

PVu kir lokW no idKlwvih igAwnu iDAwnu nhI sUJY ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

nwnk AMDy isau ikAw khIAY khY n kihAw bUJY ] (1289-18, mlwr, mÚ 1)

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said."

Clearly Guru Nanak states, What is meat? and which one leads to a higher spirituality, Consuming it or not?

If you do not eat m

eat because you choose not to "kill another living being" then so be it, but make that your answer to be a vegetarian, not "its against my religion or Gurbani says not to"

The reason why Sikhs are not supposed to eat Halal meat is because we dont eat meat in which anyones Religious Rites are put upon or made as a sacrifice to One's God.

Theres plenty of quotes from various Bhagats renouncing meat-eating, but Guru Nanak states it clearly, this is only for t he fools to argue. You can not know what is more spiritual. You can always think what is more moral, but that may not be the same level of morality for someone else.

Why is it not served in todays gurdwara?

Out of respect for the traditional ones that believe consuming meat is not good. We choose not to offer meat to anyone since Meat can cause controversy but meat-eaters dont mind eating vegetarian food during lunch-time for 30 minutes peacefully.

[Mkhalsa]

satpreet kaur, did you find a post by me about the explanation of above shabad? I beleive I went through it line by line last year or so, around when the forum first started.

also, hukams are not in guru sahib as they are direct orders and not gurbani. (ie you cannot read them as patt for purposes of hightening spirituality)